What does God want in Christian churches?

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Oct 24, 2018
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#42
The WORD of TRUTH In JESUS name which will cause some to come to HIM.

I agree, but how is that done? I believe that while we still have freedom of religion that Christian churches should become more like the Acts 2 churches by establishing many home groups and in church groups for careful Bible study discussions. I have free Bible study tools that could help that which would enable any serious Christian to be facilitators of Bible discussion groups. God's Word is forever; our sermonettes don't have that guarantee unless they are based on Scripture and not theories or opinions.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#43
Actually, it was errant language for the Ecclesia to begin to use the word church at all.
That is why some call their church an assembly. But most assemble for selfish reasons and not to just enjoy praising God and learning His wonderful truths.
What God hates in our churches:

R -- ritual

E -- earnestness for superficiality

L -- legalistic

I -- ignorant of a lot of what is God-pleasing

G -- going on with un-Biblical tradition

I -- “I” problem especially in pride and selfishness

O -- obnoxious

N -- nasty, hypocritical, and condemnatory like the Pharisees of old

Instead what should be happening:
F -- fear not

A -- assurance from God's Word

I -- in God's love

T -- trust in God and the Bible

H -- holiness with Holy Spirit and Bible help




P -- power from Heaven

R -- ruled/guided by the agapè love of God and His Word

A -- attentive to the Holy Spirit

Y -- yearning for God's truths and repentance to righteousness by many

E -- earnest to be righteous and compassionate

R -- ready for the return of the Messiah and His deliverance for believers


G -- God

R -- Redeemer

A -- acts of God

T -- teaching by the Bible and the Holy Spirit

I -- intimacy with Jesus Christ

T -- toleration by the God of grace

U -- understanding by God and others

D -- divine love-- agapè

E -- eternity in the future


C -- Christ, confession

H -- Holy Spirit help

A -- attitudes and actions

N -- needs

G -- good works (Ephesians 2:10)

E -- everywhere for eternity


C -- commitment to God's truth

O -- obedience to the Holy Spirit

U -- understanding God's desires

R -- revival spiritually

A -- attentiveness for opportunities to minister

G -- gratefulness to God, especially for His protection

E -- enduring in faith of God


C -- Christ-likeness, unselfish concerns, & consideration

O -- observations

M -- mercy & money sharing

P -- perseverance, prayer, & patience

A -- attentiveness

S -- specific needs fulfilling

S -- spiritual reasons

I -- ideas & inspiration

O -- obedience to the Holy Spirit

N -- necessary or needed attitudes, actions, & aspirations




R -- respect for one another and receiving of them

E -- emotions (listening to) and exhorting in a caring/teaching way

S -- Scripture sharing: what does the Bible say about the situation needing restoration?

T -- teaching from a Holy Spirit-led pastor, Biblical counselor, or an appropriate Scripture-filled book

O -- obedience to God's Word and the Holy Spirit encouragement

R -- repentance encouragement: proper changes of thinking and behavior habits

A -- appreciation and adoration (not flattery)

T -- trusting again help

I -- intertwine souls encouragement

O -- outreach encouragement: sharing good news and lessons with others

N -- notify relatives encouragement about the new ways of thinking and behavior
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#45
Hey! Bill... PTL!
Gal 4: 19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,"

Church = the faithful of the New Covenant and never a building or a denomination.

Maranatha!

***But where is that happening and how does such happen in today's world?
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#48
THAT is very sad. t took me years to find a church where I have that
I have had that in my past, especially before I had to leave my family due to being divorced by my unfaithful wife. In most churches there is discrimination against divorcees and those who have independent ministries for teaching God's Word. There is jealousy of the latter by pastors and elders who are not doing such teaching. That even happened to me when I was in Germany 2003-2010. Only the SDA churches had Bible discussion groups.
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,776
1,802
113
Germany
#49
I have had that in my past, especially before I had to leave my family due to being divorced by my unfaithful wife. In most churches there is discrimination against divorcees and those who have independent ministries for teaching God's Word. There is jealousy of the latter by pastors and elders who are not doing such teaching.
I found a lot of prejudice against younegr people (that was my problem) and if that was ok, I was still excluded due to groups within the church. It takes a lot of time and effort. I got saved around 2014 and just a few months ago finally found a church that loves me and cares past the age and prejudice.
 
Oct 24, 2018
473
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#50
I found a lot of prejudice against younegr people (that was my problem) and if that was ok, I was still excluded due to groups within the church. It takes a lot of time and effort. I got saved around 2014 and just a few months ago finally found a church that loves me and cares past the age and prejudice.
What kind of church is that? BTW, I lived in Hannover. I recently transferred my best photos of Germany and Austria to Shutterfly. E-mail me and I will send the urls of them. There are no x-rated photos.
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,776
1,802
113
Germany
#51
What kind of church is that? BTW, I lived in Hannover. I recently transferred my best photos of Germany and Austria to Shutterfly. E-mail me and I will send the urls of them. There are no x-rated photos.
IBC (Immanuel Baptist Church) they are in the US as well :)
Ill send u a message
I havent been to Hannover, its pretty far away from me
 
Oct 24, 2018
473
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28
#52
IBC (Immanuel Baptist Church) they are in the US as well :)
Ill send u a message
I havent been to Hannover, its pretty far away from me
I will be praying for those in your church who encourage your Sanctification.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
542
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#53
That is why some call their church an assembly. But most assemble for selfish reasons and not to just enjoy praising God and learning His wonderful truths.
What God hates in our churches:

R -- ritual

E -- earnestness for superficiality

L -- legalistic

I -- ignorant of a lot of what is God-pleasing

G -- going on with un-Biblical tradition

I -- “I” problem especially in pride and selfishness

O -- obnoxious

N -- nasty, hypocritical, and condemnatory like the Pharisees of old

Instead what should be happening:
F -- fear not

A -- assurance from God's Word

I -- in God's love

T -- trust in God and the Bible

H -- holiness with Holy Spirit and Bible help




P -- power from Heaven


R -- ruled/guided by the agapè love of God and His Word

A -- attentive to the Holy Spirit

Y -- yearning for God's truths and repentance to righteousness by many

E -- earnest to be righteous and compassionate

R -- ready for the return of the Messiah and His deliverance for believers


G -- God

R -- Redeemer

A -- acts of God

T -- teaching by the Bible and the Holy Spirit

I -- intimacy with Jesus Christ

T -- toleration by the God of grace

U -- understanding by God and others

D -- divine love-- agapè

E -- eternity in the future


C -- Christ, confession

H -- Holy Spirit help

A -- attitudes and actions

N -- needs

G -- good works (Ephesians 2:10)

E -- everywhere for eternity


C -- commitment to God's truth

O -- obedience to the Holy Spirit

U -- understanding God's desires

R -- revival spiritually

A -- attentiveness for opportunities to minister

G -- gratefulness to God, especially for His protection

E -- enduring in faith of God


C -- Christ-likeness, unselfish concerns, & consideration

O -- observations

M -- mercy & money sharing

P -- perseverance, prayer, & patience

A -- attentiveness

S -- specific needs fulfilling

S -- spiritual reasons

I -- ideas & inspiration

O -- obedience to the Holy Spirit

N -- necessary or needed attitudes, actions, & aspirations




R -- respect for one another and receiving of them


E -- emotions (listening to) and exhorting in a caring/teaching way

S -- Scripture sharing: what does the Bible say about the situation needing restoration?

T -- teaching from a Holy Spirit-led pastor, Biblical counselor, or an appropriate Scripture-filled book

O -- obedience to God's Word and the Holy Spirit encouragement

R -- repentance encouragement: proper changes of thinking and behavior habits

A -- appreciation and adoration (not flattery)

T -- trusting again help

I -- intertwine souls encouragement

O -- outreach encouragement: sharing good news and lessons with others

N -- notify relatives encouragement about the new ways of thinking and behavior
Churches divide the body of the Ekklesia. Too often, myself included of course, we in the body that is Christ's living church on earth, use the word "church". TV pastors will seek to evoke praise from those in the pews with invites like, "can I get a shout of praise for God church?" *(shouts follow of course)
But looking back and not that far or hard we can see that the whole church system divided the body rather quickly. Because church conflates with denominationalism. And that then makes for the question, what denomination was Christ?

None. He taught what many refer to as the holiness doctrine. And yet even that divides a people as to what comprises holiness. And who then examples it according to scripture.

Think how many versions of Gods breath there are. Bible versions.
Think of how many denominations there are.

A church, the original body of believers, divided. There's a site that calls itself ''Radical Christianity" .I don't ascribe to their ideology however, they do have a very educational article concerning the history of "church" . I'll share the link HERE. For those who wish to consider its content. They consider the church system, especially as regards America and the tax exempt status many churches have that effectively crosses the line of separation of church and state. It is idolatry and antichrist, according to their perspective of "church" as opposed to what we first were, the Ekklesia. This because, in one part, the church asks the federal governments IRS for permission to make tax exempt money as qualifying under IRS guidelines as a religion.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
542
113
#54
Churches divide the body of the Ekklesia. Too often, myself included of course, we in the body that is Christ's living church on earth, use the word "church". TV pastors will seek to evoke praise from those in the pews with invites like, "can I get a shout of praise for God church?" *(shouts follow of course)
But looking back and not that far or hard we can see that the whole church system divided the body rather quickly. Because church conflates with denominationalism. And that then makes for the question, what denomination was Christ?

None. He taught what many refer to as the holiness doctrine. And yet even that divides a people as to what comprises holiness. And who then examples it according to scripture.

Think how many versions of Gods breath there are. Bible versions.
Think of how many denominations there are.

A church, the original body of believers, divided. There's a site that calls itself ''Radical Christianity" .I don't ascribe to their ideology however, they do have a very educational article concerning the history of "church" . I'll share the link HERE. For those who wish to consider its content. They consider the church system, especially as regards America and the tax exempt status many churches have that effectively crosses the line of separation of church and state. It is idolatry and antichrist, according to their perspective of "church" as opposed to what we first were, the Ekklesia. This because, in one part, the church asks the federal governments IRS for permission to make tax exempt money as qualifying under IRS guidelines as a religion.

This excerpt is from the article I already linked,
Christ's Ekklesia and The Church Compared

By:Richard Anthony


The Origin of the word Church
(SIC)....."We see from this Greek Lexicon that no one really knows how church got into the languages of the world to be used as a replacement for the Christ's ekklesia.

Church: "Derived from the Middle English word chirch/kirke, which is derived from the Old English word cirice (and the Old Norse kirkja), which is derived from the Germanic kirika, which is derived from the Classical Greek kyriake (oikia) which means "lord's house," and kyriakos which means "belonging to the lord," and kyrioswhich means "ruler," and kyros which means "supreme power," and all these words are derived from the Indo European base keu which means "a swelling, to be strong, hero," whence is derived "cave." 1. A building set apart or consecrated for public worship." Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, page 251.
Church: "The etymology of this word is generally assumed to be from the Greek, Kuriou oikos (house of God); but this is most improbable, as the word existed in all the Celtic dialects long before the introduction of Greek. No doubt the word means "a circle." The places of worship among the German and Celtic nations were always circular. (Welsh, cyrch, French, cirque; Scotch, kirk; Greek, kirk-os, etc.) Compare Anglo-Saxon circe, a church, with circol, a circle." The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, E. Cobham Brewer, 1894.
Church: "Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship. In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning." Easton's Bible Dictionary.​
The courts have ruled that "The word 'church' is used interchangeably to designate a society of persons who profess the Christian religion and the place where such personsregularly assemble for worship."
The word in Latin for ekklesia is also ekklesia, so even the Latin retained this word. When we know what the word ekklesia means, how can we take something unclean, such as "The Church," and make it clean (Job 14:4)? We can't.
So, most bible translators have interpreted the Greek word ekklesia as Church, but ekklesia has nothing to do with the word Church! Every word study and reference available all agree that the word Church does not come from the original Koine Greek word ekklesia, but comes from a late Greek word, which has a totally different meaning! So we must ask ourselves this question: "Why do bibles falsely use the word church in place of the Christ's ekklesia?"


Churches are Businesses-Article Continues at this header link "
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,278
2,434
113
#55
I just realized how offensive, judgmental, and stupid that statement was.
I am sorry.
Need to learn the think before I speak.

I want to thank you for this. First, it saved me a post chastising you (lol!) but more important it shows humility and godly character!

In fact, it has really encouraged me, today! May we all be able to admit when we are wrong in our attitudes!

God bless!
 
Dec 9, 2011
11,913
1,152
113
#56
I agree, but how is that done? I believe that while we still have freedom of religion that Christian churches should become more like the Acts 2 churches by establishing many home groups and in church groups for careful Bible study discussions. I have free Bible study tools that could help that which would enable any serious Christian to be facilitators of Bible discussion groups. God's Word is forever; our sermonettes don't have that guarantee unless they are based on Scripture and not theories or opinions.
GOD will teach them,JESUS ,the VINE,we are the branches,JESUS Is The head,we are members of the body of CHRIST receiving grace through faith so that we can give grace to the listener.
 
Oct 24, 2018
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#57
GOD will teach them,JESUS ,the VINE,we are the branches,JESUS Is The head,we are members of the body of CHRIST receiving grace through faith so that we can give grace to the listener.
Where is that really happening? How would you teach Philippians 2:1-5 and Ephesians 4:11-16? How would you recruit people to do such?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,278
2,434
113
#58
This excerpt is from the article I already linked,
Christ's Ekklesia and The Church Compared

By:Richard Anthony


The Origin of the word Church
(SIC)....."We see from this Greek Lexicon that no one really knows how church got into the languages of the world to be used as a replacement for the Christ's ekklesia.

Church: "Derived from the Middle English word chirch/kirke, which is derived from the Old English word cirice (and the Old Norse kirkja), which is derived from the Germanic kirika, which is derived from the Classical Greek kyriake (oikia) which means "lord's house," and kyriakos which means "belonging to the lord," and kyrioswhich means "ruler," and kyros which means "supreme power," and all these words are derived from the Indo European base keu which means "a swelling, to be strong, hero," whence is derived "cave." 1. A building set apart or consecrated for public worship." Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, page 251.​
Church: "The etymology of this word is generally assumed to be from the Greek, Kuriou oikos (house of God); but this is most improbable, as the word existed in all the Celtic dialects long before the introduction of Greek. No doubt the word means "a circle." The places of worship among the German and Celtic nations were always circular. (Welsh, cyrch, French, cirque; Scotch, kirk; Greek, kirk-os, etc.) Compare Anglo-Saxon circe, a church, with circol, a circle." The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, E. Cobham Brewer, 1894.
Church: "Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship. In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning." Easton's Bible Dictionary.​
The courts have ruled that "The word 'church' is used interchangeably to designate a society of persons who profess the Christian religion and the place where such personsregularly assemble for worship."
The word in Latin for ekklesia is also ekklesia, so even the Latin retained this word. When we know what the word ekklesia means, how can we take something unclean, such as "The Church," and make it clean (Job 14:4)? We can't.
So, most bible translators have interpreted the Greek word ekklesia as Church, but ekklesia has nothing to do with the word Church! Every word study and reference available all agree that the word Church does not come from the original Koine Greek word ekklesia, but comes from a late Greek word, which has a totally different meaning! So we must ask ourselves this question: "Why do bibles falsely use the word church in place of the Christ's ekklesia?"


Churches are Businesses-Article Continues at this header link "
Well, not sure if you wrote the last part or not. If not, your source is utterly confused. Classical Greek (as above!) was BEFORE Koine Greek. Therefore, it does NOT come from a "late Greek word" but an earlier Greek word.

Which makes no sense at all, either way. Ekklesia is in the Bible. It does literally mean "called or elected ones," in the early church. And the romance languages seem to get it a bit closer - l'Eglises in French, for example. Which, by the way, translates directly into English as "church."

But, the Germanic languages were probably just try to capture the flavour of the "K" sound, with Kirche. Germans tend not to put "E" before nouns, (except for ein!). And, German is much more related to Greek than western, Latin based languages. When I took advanced German last year, I was delighted to find the grammar was virtually identical to Greek, in many ways. In fact, it helped my German to know Greek. But the explanations in German, also helped my Greek. I have not had a chance to check vocabulary origins, but certainly the noun and adjectival cases, the verbs, and the word order mirror Greek. It has been a pleasure reading the Bible in German, too! It is so similar to Greek!

My suggestion is to not copy and paste from sources that are iffy. In fact, until you can actually speak some Romance Languages, German and read Greek, probably best not to pontificate about things you know nothing about!
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
542
113
#59
Well, not sure if you wrote the last part or not. If not, your source is utterly confused. Classical Greek (as above!) was BEFORE Koine Greek. Therefore, it does NOT come from a "late Greek word" but an earlier Greek word.

Which makes no sense at all, either way. Ekklesia is in the Bible. It does literally mean "called or elected ones," in the early church. And the romance languages seem to get it a bit closer - l'Eglises in French, for example. Which, by the way, translates directly into English as "church."

But, the Germanic languages were probably just try to capture the flavour of the "K" sound, with Kirche. Germans tend not to put "E" before nouns, (except for ein!). And, German is much more related to Greek than western, Latin based languages. When I took advanced German last year, I was delighted to find the grammar was virtually identical to Greek, in many ways. In fact, it helped my German to know Greek. But the explanations in German, also helped my Greek. I have not had a chance to check vocabulary origins, but certainly the noun and adjectival cases, the verbs, and the word order mirror Greek. It has been a pleasure reading the Bible in German, too! It is so similar to Greek!

My suggestion is to not copy and paste from sources that are iffy. In fact, until you can actually speak some Romance Languages, German and read Greek, probably best not to pontificate about things you know nothing about!
My suggestion is to refrain from throwing condescending remarks when you first enter into them by admitting you're not able to discern what is clearly designated as copy and paste from original thoughts written by a member. In relation to your target of contention, me. To later try to advise I shouldn't "pontificate" about things I know nothing about makes your attempt at berating me a joke on you. It also makes you presumptuous in your zeal to attack thinking I did not garner the article(s) I share on this forum from my own personal library of saves. And after careful consideration of the research and sources contained therein.

Your failed tactics also demonstrate per your scope of implied critical thought that you're shall we say not one that actually knows what they claim to know about Greek language.
For members consideration. The second excerpted text below this one fully revokes Angela's claim about Koine Greek as she intended to berate the information in the link I shared that compared Ekklesia and church language origins.


What Was Koine Greek?
Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins
Question:
Was Koine Greek just a dialect of Classical Greek, or was Classical Greek already dead?



I have heard that the Koine Greek was the perfect language for the New Testament, because at the time of the N. T. writings, Koine was "static" and precise in its vocabulary and structures, with no exact synonyms, but did have some close synonyms that had distinct nuances in meaning, and could therefore be distinguished; it was considered "static" (I don't remember if that is the exact term) because, not long after that, it died as a spoken language, so its meanings were "sure" (?) (the form that was spoken after that was considered "pre-modern Greek" (not the term they used, I'm sure).

Answer:
"Koine" (Greek for "common") is a term that came to designate that broad, common form of mostly non-literary Greek used by Greeks in common speech among themselves and with other ethnicities, and used by various ethnicities in their communication with other ethnicities. I find it commonly used as a technical term for a period in history roughly designating the 1st century BCE and CE (BC and AD). But it covers the early centuries of Christian development.

"Classical" Greek is a designation given to the writings of a particular period in the history of early Greek literature, including writing by Plato and other philosophers. "Classical" Greek also consisted of a variety of forms, that we could call dialects, with differences noted between the writings from different cities and regions.

Classical Greek did not die out – it just continued to change as every other language. Various Greek dialects from the ancient times continued to be used in various areas of the ancient world, from Hispania to China, from Central Asia to the Arabian peninsula.

Yes, in one sense, Koine can be considered a dialect of Classical Greek. But not in the normal sense of "dialect." Koine was not contemporary with the language of the "Classical" period, so was more like a descendant of the same clan as classical Greek, a distant younger cousin.

Keep in mind also that "Classical Greek" wasn't "classical" at the time it was spoken. It was just "Greek," or actually they called it Elenika. We refer to it now as classical only in light of the literature we have from that period and our knowledge of the language and its culture milieu. Greek was just Greek, with its variations from region to region, class to class and age to age.

The formal written forms we now call "classical" Greek were still the reference standard for written Greek in the first century AD, so written styles existed on a continuum between that older standard – set several hundred years before – and the current actual Greek language heard and used at that time in history. Virtually the full continuum of style appears in the New Testament texts.



[...]

Koine to Modern Greek
In general summary, Koine became the BASE for all modern Greek, superseding the classical forms, which already by the first century were being considered separate languages, and by the 3rd century were considered foreign languages.

Koine consolidated in the Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire), centered in Constantinople, in the early Middle Ages. Even modern Cypriots tell me the Biblical Greek is like a foreign language to them, which terribly surprised me, since I can read both, and they seem very similar to me!

(Greek has actually changed less since the first century than virtually any other European language. English speakers can hardly understand something written 400 years ago, like Shakespeare and the King James version of the Bible. Two thousand years ago, there was no such thing as an English language.)

The Common Greek language was a set of varieties, and, of course, continued to change. I did some study on this by visiting museums to read Byzantine manuscripts, like church edicts, ordination announcements, etc., but could not do a good scholarly job with the time I had.

You can see the gradual changes in grammatical and phonetic form over the centuries, just like in Spanish, French and English. The patterns of sound change, as well as grammar, are very similar to Latin.

In Greek, we see the common pattern of language change – things simplified. The current patterns of grammar and pronunciation in modern Greek have all developed systematically from the Koine forms, just as our modern languages have from their older forms.

The peripheral forms (dialects) died out, and major regional usages were absorbed into the general Greek language just as English dialectic forms have been accreted into the "standard" forms of English, giving us many forms of the same word with similar or different meanings. There are several dialects today, with some differences. Cypriot Greek is today the most like the first-century forms of Greek.

Robertson and other linguists of Greek give the same type of analysis of Greek as others did for all known modern languages with a literate history. Words overlapped in meaning and usage. Those who make the romantic claims of perfection for Greek appear to be unaware of the language itself and must make their claims up out of whole cloth, cut with crooked lines by dull scissors.

It is totally unbelievable to think that any human language is ever so precise as to defy human usage! A very characteristic of human speech is creativity and variety. Conformity also is a common feature of language, but innovation and conformity, or regularization, are both always going on at the same time, on different features of each language.

Shifts in Pronunciation
Thus pronunciation was shifting and uncertain in Koine Greek, indicated by the variety of spellings in borrowings in Aramaic, Latin, Egyptian, etc. Most notable is one of Jesus’ sayings on the cross, Eli, lama sabachthani, spelled by another gospel writer as Eloi. Eli and Eloi represent the same word, pronounced as in modern Greek “Eh-lee.” Which was the "correct" way to spell it? How do the Platonist Romantic spiritualizers answer that? Robertson has an amazingly detailed discussion of pronunciations, syntax and meanings which bring out the dynamic, living character of Koine Greek.









[Full Article LINKED HERE ]
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#60
Why do some people discourage others from being a part of a local church?
Some even seem to condemn us for serving our Lord through a local church.
The NT is filled with evidence of local churches through out the Roman Empire.
I understand that there are some local churches that God probably does not recognize an His, but to condemn all is just wrong.
If a person chooses to ignore the command to assemble, that is between them and God, but that person should also be very aware of the sin they are committing when the condemn and/or encourage others to do the same.