What Does It Mean That God Desires All People To Be Saved?

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selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
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Here it is, @Mem

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

- 2 Corinthians 5:21
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Here it is, @Mem

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

- 2 Corinthians 5:21
Those that adhere to Him, are righteous!
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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How are these sects different from Christianity which only requires you to believe? :)
Some require you to believe that faith is a work (ergon) to be a true Christian. Some believe one must agree that the unsaved cannot believe the gospel without first being regenerated/born again by the Holy Spirit to be a true Christian.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Hi, brother. . . I believe that the antecedent of the second pronoun ‘He’ is the LORD.

Genesis 15:6 NKJV) And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15:6 (NRSV) And he believed the LORD; and the LORD reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Yes, I realize that, and many believe as you do, but I think that no verse stands alone and must
be harmonized with, and seen in the light of, other verses in order to come to a correct understanding (and as we are so directed by the Bible to do, given that is the way that God chose to write it). Besides our individual perceptions of who each pronoun represents, there is nothing in the verse itself (that I can see) except for the first "he", to actually make that determination. Especially since it was the "it" that was being reckoned "to him". That is why I included the other verses which seem (at least to me), to clearly demonstrate who the sources of true faith and righteousness were/are, and thereby, fill in the unknowns of the verse - not the least of which is Romans 4:9, where we see that "FAITH was RECKONED TO Abraham FOR righteousness", IOW, it was faith that was reckoned to Abraham. As a part of it was/is righteousness. So, that faith could only be Christ's faith because only Christ's faith has righteousness.
Also, I think had it been intended as you perceive it, then it would have instead been phrased as:
"And he believed in the LORD, and he accounted righteousness to him for his belief", and not in the reverse as it was phrased.

I won't belabor this further.
 
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Some require you to believe that faith is a work (ergon) to be a true Christian. Some believe one must agree that the unsaved cannot believe the gospel without first being regenerated/born again by the Holy Spirit to be a true Christian.
I think fearful trust to be first, then labors ergon.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”
John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”
John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John12:45~~And the one who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

John6:45
“It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Service. Not salvation.

Luke 6:13~~And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Luke 6:13~~And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:


John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Not salvation. Once born-again, we are new creations and not of this world.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Not salvation. Elected/ chosen for blessings.


Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blamebefore him in love:
Not salvation. Before the foundation of the world God's plan was for believers to be Holy and blameless before Him.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Again, not salvation. The predestined plan, at salvation, all believers are adopted as children.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Again, not salvation. All believers will obtain a predestined inheritance(great eternal rewards.)

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
It is salvation. It's not an arbitrary election. It's through the Blood of Christ. John 3:16 Acts 16:1 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. God knows who is going to believe and who isn't.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Same. We are chosen through belief of the truth.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Not salvation. Ordained a prophet.
Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Believers shall inherit it.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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John 10:30
“I and the Father are one.”
John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”
John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


John12:45~~And the one who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

John6:45
“It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 6:40
“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”


Service. Not salvation.

Luke 6:13~~And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:


Luke 6:13~~And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:


Not salvation. Once born-again, we are new creations and not of this world.

Not salvation. Elected/ chosen for blessings.



Not salvation. Before the foundation of the world God's plan was for believers to be Holy and blameless before Him.


Again, not salvation. The predestined plan, at salvation, all believers are adopted as children.


Again, not salvation. All believers will obtain a predestined inheritance(great eternal rewards.)


It is salvation. It's not an arbitrary election. It's through the Blood of Christ. John 3:16 Acts 16:1 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. God knows who is going to believe and who isn't.

Same. We are chosen through belief of the truth.

Not salvation. Ordained a prophet.
Believers shall inherit it.
Awaiting your comments my post #766.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Some require you to believe that faith is a work (ergon) to be a true Christian. Some believe one must agree that the unsaved cannot believe the gospel without first being regenerated/born again by the Holy Spirit to be a true Christian.
At what point are our hearts circumcised so we can love God?
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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After we have been born again spiritually by God's grace, we begin our spiritual growth as babes in Christ on the milk of of the word, unable to digest the meat until we mature. We are taught the gospel by those who have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the unserchable riches of Christ (Eph 3:1-8).
Our conversation is not about spiritual maturity. It is specifically About the gospel. How one is saved. Not growing in His grace and knowledge.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. You claim man can't see it until he is born-again. This shows us the Gospel is revealed to ALL.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

What's the context? Paul was explaining that human wisdom and intellect could never figure out the MYSTERY of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No amount of pondering, reasoning or debating from the human mind/natural man would ever figure out Gods mystery plan of His Gospel. It had to be REVEALED. God had to wait until "it was finished" to reveal it to mankind. Why?

1 Cor 2:8~…which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The natural man could not muster up enough intellectual prowess to see this mystery. So when "it was finished" the Spirit REVEALED the MYSTERY.
1 Cor 2:10~~ these are the things God has revealed to us(Paul and the apostles Eph 3:1-9) by his Spirit.The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Now the mystery is revealed. So ALL can see.

Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

John 3:16
Acts 16:31
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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At what point are our hearts circumcised so we can love God?
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

What renews our mind ?

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is our issue

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is what changes it

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63, 67-68‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If our mind and heart is changed our actions will follow we believe wrong so we act wrong
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Speaking toward Magenta's conversation with Bill and Ted (I can't help but add an air guitar here)...

I think it was Bill and Ted, but I might've just wanted reason to play the air guitar...

, concerning Adam's initial perfection and potential to sin and whether it was an intrinsic component within his nature,

Scripture tells us that fear of death bounds? men to sin, so I think there must've been some fear factor that the devil employed to irritate this reality.

Idk if fear is a sin in itself but I'd think it must've had something to do with the into sin.

As I wrote briefly earlier of the moment of knowing that I was saved, fear was first to dissipate... and Jesus' declaration, "My peace I leave with you."
Thank you for the reminder, as I have brought this up before, in particular questioning whether either Adam and/or Eve's fear of death played any role in their transgression. We know Adam was not deceived, and some postulate that it was out of his great love for Eve that he followed her suit (do please excuse the turn of that phrase), just as Christ chose to die for the sins of the whole world out of His great love for us...

@selahsays free will is not taught in the Bible! This does not preclude man's need and ability to make choices. However, the natural man is a slave to sin due to fear of death... and slaves are not free. It is a complex issue to be sure. Neither am I a Calvinist... I would love to discuss this more when I am not on my phone during my workplace lunch break...
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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Awaiting your comments my post #766.
And Sir,

If I am wrong, I'm safe. I made a rational(as a broken man) choice for Christ and was saved. If I was elected to salvation and then believed.......well I was wrong I'm Still going to the eternal state.

But if you're wrong. And It wasn't by election and you have never made a rational free choice for Christ. What then?

It's our eternal destiny at stake, so it's a pretty big matter.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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What's the context? Paul was explaining that human wisdom and intellect could never figure out the MYSTERY of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No amount of pondering, reasoning or debating from the human mind/natural man would ever figure out Gods mystery plan of His Gospel. It had to be REVEALED. God had to wait until "it was finished" to reveal it to mankind. Why?
Nope - you forgot to include the preceding verses. They tell us that it is only by the Spirit of God that one can understand the things of the Spirit of God. So, unless He has been given to everyone, which He hasn't been, then they cannot understand the things of Him,
and therefore, they remain unable as natural man, to know them.

[1Co 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
 

Ted01

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May 14, 2022
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Nope - you forgot to include the preceding verses. They tell us that it is only by the Spirit of God that one can understand the things of the Spirit of God. So, unless He has been given to everyone, which He hasn't been, then they cannot understand the things of Him,
and therefore, they remain unable as natural man, to know them.

[1Co 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Just a question Roger... Is it your belief that the Holy Spirit has to indwell a person in order for Him to be able to influence a person?
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
771
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Nope - you forgot to include the preceding verses. They tell us that it is only by the Spirit of God that one can understand the things of the Spirit of God. So, unless He has been given to everyone, which He hasn't been, then they cannot understand the things of Him,
and therefore, they remain unable as natural man, to know them.

[1Co 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
We are indwelt with the Spirit.........can't we witness to people to REVEAL the gospel to them?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Just a question Roger... Is it your belief that the Holy Spirit has to indwell a person in order for Him to be able to influence a person?
I think he doesn't. But when it comes to faith, there is incumbent in faith certain spiritual understanding. Since this spiritual understanding is spiritually discerned, in the matter of salvation, the Spirit indwelling necessarily must precede faith.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
771
302
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Nope - you forgot to include the preceding verses. They tell us that it is only by the Spirit of God that one can understand the things of the Spirit of God. So, unless He has been given to everyone, which He hasn't been, then they cannot understand the things of Him,
and therefore, they remain unable as natural man, to know them.
John 7
John7~~37Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” 39But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

His Good News is to ALL. And ANYONE can come.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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John 7
John7~~37Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” 39But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

His Good News is to ALL. And ANYONE can come.
This is probably a reference to the Spirit as the promise of the Father given the day of Pentecost and not the indwelling Spirit of salvation.
 
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His Good News is to ALL. And ANYONE can come.
[Revelation 21:7 RSV] 7 He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
21:7 ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός
 

Ted01

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May 14, 2022
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I think he doesn't. But when it comes to faith, there is incumbent in faith certain spiritual understanding. Since this spiritual understanding is spiritually discerned, in the matter of salvation, the Spirit indwelling necessarily must precede faith.
So, you believe that the Holy Spirit must be indwelling a person even before we are drawn to reading the Word, understanding enough to believe and crying out for Salvation? Interesting.