What is "spiritually dead?"

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

Worms!!!

I just read a Spurgeon devotional a week or so ago that talked about this. No memory of what it was really about, but I remember worms! The Lord made this wonderful garden with beautiful lawn over it to cover what was below it in his beauty. What is below it is worms. Us! Instead of the beautiful garden and lots of lawn, if Jesus didn't cover it with that kind of garment, we'd see nothing but dirt and wiggly, slimy worms.

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

dcontroversal said:

And there is that arguing attitude showing up.

"According to my doctrine?" Okay, let's go to what I think is doctrine.

Jesus saves everyone the Father gave to him. And he will lose none. (John 6:35-40.)

Where does that say "babies excluded?"

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

A lifetime trusting the Lord? Somehow, in someway, even before David was a shepherd about to do war with a giant, the Lord called him and saved him. I know this because everything points to David believing God about the Savior coming. The same belief we have, except we can actually look back and see who that savior was by name.

If the worse thing that could happen, happened to me -- losing my baby -- I would trust the Lord for the same reason. He saved me even when I didn't deserve it. He saved my husband, even when he didn't deserve it. He loves us, even when we screw up. So it's just in me to believe he would save that little baby who never had time to understand everything first.

God loves me. I've got no idea why. But he also knows what I need, and gives me what I need. I would need to know he wasn't mad at my newborn because I screwed up. I would see that baby again.

David was given something very few of us are given. Peace at the death of his baby. Where else would he get that, except through the Lord whom he loved? And why would he be given that, if it weren't for the Lord giving him that? The only way anyone can have peace at the death of their child is through the Lord, and the Lord giving that person something very special -- a knowing that this was all in God's plan.

God has given me knowings that didn't come from the Bible. He has done that at times. (Very rare, but he has.) And his knowing always points to he loves me so much and trust him. David got a knowing, for lack of a better word.

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

posthuman said:

I've watched Big Bang, so know the cat. lol

I just don't buy the theory. Whether we look or don't look in on the cat, it's either alive or dead. It's not both.

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 27, 2018

Depleted said:

A lifetime trusting the Lord? Somehow, in someway, even before David was a shepherd about to do war with a giant, the Lord called him and saved him. I know this because everything points to David believing God about the Savior coming. The same belief we have, except we can actually look back and see who that savior was by name.

If the worse thing that could happen, happened to me -- losing my baby -- I would trust the Lord for the same reason. He saved me even when I didn't deserve it. He saved my husband, even when he didn't deserve it. He loves us, even when we screw up. So it's just in me to believe he would save that little baby who never had time to understand everything first.

God loves me. I've got no idea why. But he also knows what I need, and gives me what I need. I would need to know he wasn't mad at my newborn because I screwed up. I would see that baby again.

David was given something very few of us are given. Peace at the death of his baby. Where else would he get that, except through the Lord whom he loved? And why would he be given that, if it weren't for the Lord giving him that? The only way anyone can have peace at the death of their child is through the Lord, and the Lord giving that person something very special -- a knowing that this was all in God's plan.

God has given me knowings that didn't come from the Bible. He has done that at times. (Very rare, but he has.) And his knowing always points to he loves me so much and trust him. David got a knowing, for lack of a better word.

Yes I agree. He got a knowing. And what you say, that you believe He would save a baby who doesn't understand anything yet, would BE saying there is some sort of age of accountability.

dcontroversal · Jan 27, 2018

Depleted said:

Since when can a baby believe with the mind and confess with the mouth to salvation after hearing the word<-faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word....the argument started with your worldly examples of yourself void of the word...of the which I GAVE 2 EXAMPLES

SovereignGrace · Jan 27, 2018

notuptome said:

God exposed Cain to his own wicked, rebellious heart. When God asked Cain where was Abel, he scoffed and said, "Am I my brother's keeper?" Well, yeah you were Cain. Then God said IF he did well, it would go well with him, if not, then sin is waiting to eat you up. All Cain was worried about was Cain.

dcontroversal · Jan 27, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

Exactly what I was thinking...argumenative just to argue....the bible proves it in principle...but GAWD FORBID we apply terminology like AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY!

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 27, 2018

dcontroversal said:

She works it out as she goes along thinking, like me.

She isn't really arguing.
Come on, you've seen our Lynn argue. That's not this.
She just works things out through talking.

garee · Jan 27, 2018

A spirit is the essence of life.All living things are given the spirit or breath of life. Coming from the father of spirits.

We are given temporal spirit when born the first time. Approx. 70 years or so.. God does not give exact years .

Psalms 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Because of mankind Adam and Eve we are born with a dead soul; no way to commune with God .God must do the first work and open up the line of communication like he did with Lazarus who was dead 4 days with no way to commune. Jesus giving him ears to hear said ..Lazarus rise,The sound of the voice of Jesus the only qualifier.

The soul is made up of the thoughts of man and his ability to reason in his heart .You could say heart and soul working to produce the fruit of communication .

Because God is of one mind he does whatsoever his soul pleases. He performs that as he works in the creature to both will and do His good pleasure. Our soul is the communal relationship between two hearts. Along with our new spirit that will never die we receive anew heart and a resurrected soul by which we can live forever.

Again a soul is the line of communication with a persons own heart as well as the which works with other It was the soul of God that communed between the father and Son .God contemplating the thoughts as if two were working in perfect harmony and submission to one Spirit . We can see God crying out to God in that way. He makes our new hearts so that we can hear His voice as the things of God .

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Job 23:12

The soul that violates the communication between God and man dies. There is no communication with those dead in there trespasses and sin without hope and without God in this corrupted world.

Nehemiah6 · Jan 27, 2018

garee said:

You are confusing the soul with the spirit. Our souls are very much alive at birth, but our spirits are dead. The Bible does not say that our souls need *quickening* but it does say that our spirits need *quickening* (bringing to life).

The soul is the essential person, whereas the body is simply the *tabernacle* for the soul. But because of Adam and Eve, all the souls of human beings are already tainted with the sin nature. And it is the spirit which communes with God and understands spiritual things, therefore the spirit must be *quickened* by the Holy Spirit at the time of the New Birth.

But the New Birth does not occur unless a sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is at this point that the sinner is justified by grace through faith, receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, is born again, and has the spirit brought to life. All of this is summarized in Titus 3:4-7:

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Since when is "believe with the mind and confess with the mouth" (our work) the way to salvation?

Are you saying mutes, babies, and mentally disabled people can't be saved?

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Apparently he did forbid, since no such concept is in the Bible.

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 28, 2018

Depleted said:

I'm missing something I think...

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 28, 2018

Usually what I'm missing is some leap in the mind of someone that I am not privy to.
I don't mean a stupid leap but rather a leap that I am too stupid to have made in MY mind!

Depleted · Jan 28, 2018

garee said:

A spirit is the essence of life.All living things are given the spirit or breath of life. Coming from the father of spirits.

We are given temporal spirit when born the first time. Approx. 70 years or so.. God does not give exact years .

Psalms 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Because of mankind Adam and Eve we are born with a dead soul; no way to commune with God .God must do the first work and open up the line of communication like he did with Lazarus who was dead 4 days with no way to commune. Jesus giving him ears to hear said ..Lazarus rise,The sound of the voice of Jesus the only qualifier.

The soul is made up of the thoughts of man and his ability to reason in his heart .You could say heart and soul working to produce the fruit of communication .

Because God is of one mind he does whatsoever his soul pleases. He performs that as he works in the creature to both will and do His good pleasure. Our soul is the communal relationship between two hearts. Along with our new spirit that will never die we receive anew heart and a resurrected soul by which we can live forever.

Again a soul is the line of communication with a persons own heart as well as the which works with other It was the soul of God that communed between the father and Son .God contemplating the thoughts as if two were working in perfect harmony and submission to one Spirit . We can see God crying out to God in that way. He makes our new hearts so that we can hear His voice as the things of God .

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Job 23:12

The soul that violates the communication between God and man dies. There is no communication with those dead in there trespasses and sin without hope and without God in this corrupted world.

I appreciate you're trying, but this is something like geometry for me. Did not get geometry. I get it's surfaces and measurements, but I think my mechanically-inclined gene is broken, in part, because I can't figure out depths and widths if my life depended on it. Same feeling I have with dichotomy and dichotomy. You're trying to explain ethereal to someone who is lead weight.

Depleted · Jan 28, 2018

Depleted said:

Renewed, between what you taught me, and Spurgeon, I think I'm getting this (maybe) a bit more.

We are given new life from the Lord, but that doesn't mean perfect life and all grown up, healthy and wise. God has to dig out the corrupted, reproduce perfect from severely-mutated, and washwashwash the corroded off of us.

He's turning worms into angels!

[h=1]“Perfect in Christ Jesus.” Col. 1:28

Do you not feel in your own soul that perfection is not in you? Does not every day teach you that? Every tear, which trickles from your eye, weeps “imperfection”; every harsh word, which proceeds from your lip, mutters “imperfection.” You have too frequently had a view of your own heart to dream for a moment of any perfection in yourself. But amidst this sad consciousness of imperfection, here is comfort for you-you are “perfect in Christ Jesus.” In God’s sight, you are “complete in him;” even now you are “accepted in the Beloved.” But there is a second perfection, yet to be realized, which is sure to all the seed. Is it not delightful to look forward to the time when every stain of sin shall be removed from the believer, and he shall be presented faultless before the throne, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing? The Church of Christ then will be so pure, that not even the eye of Omniscience will see a spot or blemish in her; so holy and so glorious, that Hart did not go beyond the truth when he said-
“With my Saviour’s garments on,
Holy as the Holy One.”

Then shall we know, and taste, and feel the happiness of this vast but short sentence, “Complete in Christ.” Not till then shall we fully comprehend the heights and depths of the salvation of Jesus. Doth not thy heart leap for joy at the thought of it? Black as thou art, thou shalt be white one day; filthy as thou art, thou shalt be clean. Oh, it is a marvelous salvation this! Christ takes a worm and transforms it into an angel; Christ takes a black and deformed thing and makes it clean and matchless in his glory, peerless in his beauty, and fit to be the companion of seraphs. O my soul, stand and admire this blessed truth of perfection in Christ.[/h]

Depleted · Jan 28, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

"Believe with the mind and confess with the mouth" implies we have to have the mental faculties to understand enough and then the tongue to say it, all in our effort to save ourselves. That dismisses mutes, babies and mentally disabled people from being saved.

Friends of ours are missionaries to Southwest Philly. That's where the Lord called them to missionary work, and both are evangelists and teachers in the Biblical sense. They're married and had children, so they evangelized and taught their children too, from 4-months pregnant on up. (They even told their kids about God before they were born.)

Their son was 18 months old when he died in his crib. (SIDS. Poor couple actually had to go through the ordeal of having their son autopsied with cops wondering if maybe they didn't kill their son.) They were devastated as any parents would be.

I still remember the passage the father read at his son's funeral. Always the evangelist. Always pointing to the Lord.

2 Cor. 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair;9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.11 For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.12 So death is at work in us, but life in you.

So, since the son could barely talk, was he not saved because he could not speech with his mouth or understand in his heart like he could have if he were 12?

That's what "age of accountability" does. It reduces people to "saved by age." It is not "saved by the Lord." It is another way to be saved. There is the one and only way to the Father.

I don't know how the Lord chooses his people, but I am sure it's not on our part based on mental understanding, verbal elocution, or age. ALL of it is on his part.

1ofthem · Jan 28, 2018

Depleted said:

I am really think on this. I still keep coming back to the spiritually dead are separated from God through sin. I know no one can save themselves and the only way to be saved or made alive is through Jesus.

So like I said I have been thinking a lot about this. I have seen many lost people in my life who seem to have a “spiritual longing”. They may even come to church sit down and listen to the message being sent out, and just sit there with tears streaming down their face. You can tell that they are longing for God, but for some reason they are not willing to turn it over to God. There is something or somethings in their life that they are not willing to give to God. They are not willing to give him their whole heart and put their complete faith in Him. So they go away sorrowful.

You can also see this in the scripture regarding the rich young man. He came to Jesus wanting to be his disciple, but was not willing to do what Jesus said to do and sell all that he had, give to the poor, and follow him…which was really just to put Jesus first, give Him his whole heart, and love Him more than anything.

The rich man wasn’t willing to put Jesus first and give it all to him so he walked away sorrowful. He remained spiritually dead, yet, that was his choice.

1ofthem · Jan 28, 2018

Depleted said:

I do agree with what you are saying here. I just think we have a different understanding of John 3:19-20. To me this is everyone's choice whether they will come into the light and let their works be manifested and changed or if they choose to stay in darkness.

Don't know why but the rich young man is still on my mind here...so I'm gonna go with him on this one too, I guess....lol

He didn't even know that he had sin. He thought he was doing good and keeping all the commandments, until he came before Jesus (the light). The light showed him the error of his way, but he chose to walked away and to stay in darkness rather than light.

What is "spiritually dead?"

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