"What Will Hell...

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Oct 15, 2022
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#21
Psalms 139:15 - "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

According to God, we were made in Hell.

You sure you folks got your facts straight?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,551
2,172
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#22
The immortality of the soul is new age, pagan, and spiritualism.
The soul dies so Hell will not be forever.
The complete and utter destruction of the wicked will be forever.
 
Oct 15, 2022
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#23
Everlasting punishment = punishment that lasts forever.
It is also a location...

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."


The New Heaven and New Earth is the location of Life Eternal. In fact, it is still optional if those residing there wish to 'leave their estate'.

Everlasting Punishment is not a 'state of being'.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,278
26,325
113
#26
The Rich Man's Soul was in Hell. Annihiliationists say his Soul was not immortal
Scripture states that God alone is immortal. Crazy how often people need to be told this, and how many still deny it.


Our God is a Consuming Fire
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#27
Another hell thread. Just cut to the chase. There’s no direct references to eternal conscious torment for all of the unsaved in the Bible. The Bible says the wicked die, perish, or are destroyed from Genesis to Revelation.

We don’t need to dissect the rich man and Lazarus parable, or try to shoe horn the doctrine of eternal torment into the Bible because it doesn’t neatly fit and creates many contradictions.

Jesus was clear with John 3:16; believe in the Son of God and have eternal life, don’t believe and don’t have eternal life, but perish. No eternal life in hell.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#28
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Hi Xavier.

There’s no reference to a place of torment in Moses and/or the Prophets and I’ve looked. So what would the rich man’s family have listened to? Where is this reference to a place of torment in the OT?
 
Oct 15, 2022
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#30
Hi Xavier.

There’s no reference to a place of torment in Moses and/or the Prophets and I’ve looked. So what would the rich man’s family have listened to? Where is this reference to a place of torment in the OT?
Jonah 2:2 (New American Bible)
"Out of my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me; From the womb of Sheol I cried for help, and you heard my voice."


The Prophet Jonah was in a Womb? And it was Sheol?!?

Once again...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."


What is the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth'?

Psalm 139:15 (New Living Translation)
"You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb."


When Jesus first descended to incarnate, where did he go?

Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"


Jesus descended into Mary's Womb... i.e., the 'Lower/Lowest Parts of the Earth'.

Interesting...

Psalms 63:9
"But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth."


Again, I ask the folks in this thread...

You sure you got your facts straight?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#31
Jonah 2:2 (New American Bible)
"Out of my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me; From the womb of Sheol I cried for help, and you heard my voice."


The Prophet Jonah was in a Womb? And it was Sheol?!?

Once again...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."


What is the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth'?

Psalm 139:15 (New Living Translation)
"You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb."


When Jesus first descended to incarnate, where did he go?

Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"


Jesus descended into Mary's Womb... i.e., the 'Lower/Lowest Parts of the Earth'.

Interesting...

Psalms 63:9
"But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth."


Again, I ask the folks in this thread...

You sure you got your facts straight?
None of those verses say that those locations are places of torment.

What was Abraham talking about? Where is this verse that says there’s a place of torment in Moses and/or the Prophets? Keep searching to see for yourself, but it’ll be in vain.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a story meant to convey a point. It isn’t literal.
 
Oct 15, 2022
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#32
None of those verses say that those locations are places of torment.
So being in distress and calling for help (while being in the Belly of Hell) meant he was having a good time.

Got it.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#33
So being in distress and calling for help (while being in the Belly of Hell) meant he was having a good time.

Got it.
It doesn’t mean Jonah was having a good time since he was in distress or trouble, but that doesn’t automatically infer torment. The rich man said he is in a place of torment which involves fire and torture.

The rich man wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his family, but Abraham said listen to Moses and the Prophets instead. So I did that and I don’t see anything about a place of torment or torture there. 🤷‍♂️

I can only conclude this isn’t a literal event. This is a story Jesus was using to make a point.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,225
982
113
Oregon
cfbac.org
#34
.
There’s no reference to a place of torment in Moses and/or the Prophets and
I’ve looked. So what would the rich man’s family have listened to? Where is
this reference to a place of torment in the OT?

I'm not really sure what Abraham meant by his comment, but there is a
reference to circumstances similar to the rich man's in the book of Isaiah.

"From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all
mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks the Lord. And they will
go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me:
their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be
loathsome to all mankind." (Isa 66:22-24)

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La
Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric
creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in brimstone is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable.
The 4 inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° F which is
hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could
create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create
worms that like it even warmer.

* To my knowledge none of Moses' writings speak of anyithing like Isaiah,
but his writings do speak of numerous curses for non compliance with the
covenant that his people entered into with God; e.g. Ex 34:6-7, Lev 26:3-
-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69. I'm assuming the rich man was a
Jew because he addressed Abraham as "father" and he in turn addressed the
man as "son", so Moses and Isaiah very definitely pertain to him.

If perchance the rich man's brothers were all brought up in a yeshiva, then
they were aware of both Isaiah and the curses but apparently chose to turn
deaf ears to sacred teachings.
_
 
Oct 15, 2022
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#35
@Runningman

How do you interpret the 'Pit' in the Old Testament?

Example:

Isaiah 14:15
"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#36
.



I'm not really sure what Abraham meant by his comment, but there is a
reference to circumstances similar to the rich man's in the book of Isaiah.


"From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all
mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks the Lord. And they will
go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against Me:
their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be
loathsome to all mankind." (Isa 66:22-24)


That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La
Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric
creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.


A worm that thrives in brimstone is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable.
The 4 inch Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° F which is
hot enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could
create a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create
worms that like it even warmer.


* To my knowledge none of Moses' writings speak of anyithing like Isaiah,
but his writings do speak of numerous curses for non compliance with the
covenant that his people entered into with God; e.g. Ex 34:6-7, Lev 26:3-
-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69. I'm assuming the rich man was a
Jew because he addressed Abraham as "father" and he in turn addressed the
man as "son", so Moses and Isaiah very definitely pertain to him.


If perchance the rich man's brothers were all brought up in a yeshiva, then
they were aware of both Isaiah and the curses but apparently chose to turn
deaf ears to sacred teachings.
_
I’m aware of Isaiah 66, but it says those being burned are dead bodies. It doesn’t say they are conscious and in torment like the rich man who was carrying on a conversation and asking for water.

I wouldn’t read that and think that’s what Abraham was referring to personally.
 
Oct 15, 2022
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#38
Let us see if we can refine that definition a bit more...

Proverbs 23:27
"For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit."


Are you getting the idea? No? OK, let us try another...

Isaiah 51:1
"Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged."


What is the Rock? What is the Pit?

Isaiah 51:2
"Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."


The 'Rock' is the Seed of Abraham.

The 'Pit' is the Sarah's Womb.

Again, I ask this Forum...

Are you sure you have your facts straight about Hell, the Pit, the Lake of Fire, etc.?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,590
1,083
113
Australia
#39
Are you sure you have your facts straight about Hell, the Pit, the Lake of Fire, etc.?
2Co 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The truth is twisted so much today. But i know my God the only source of life will not burn souls forever.

Only God is imortal.
And the wicked will perish.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,225
982
113
Oregon
cfbac.org
#40
.
There's more than one Hebrew word translated "pit" in the Old Testament.

1) bowr, which refers to a nondescript holes in the ground, i.e. anything
from pot holes to graves. (The county keeps raising taxes to repair roads in
my area but they never seem to get around to mine.)

2) she'owl a.k.a. sheol, which refer to the netherworld

3) pachath, which refers to holes in the ground by someone or something
digging.

4) be'er, which refers to deep holes e.g. a holes dug in search of water, and
sometimes refers to a path to the underworld.

5) guwmmats, another nondescript hole in the ground, i.e. trenches and
such.

6) gebe', which refers to low areas, i.e. reservoirs and swamps.

7) shachath, which pertains to dungeons and such.


* Quite a few Hebrew words are ambiguous. No doubt some of the
definitions given above are flexible and the words themselves can be utilized
as synonyms and/or figures of speech in one way or another.

Ambiguity is a big problem for translators and makes it nigh unto impossible
to render Hebrew into English verbatim. Outsiders often wonder why there
are so many versions of the Bible. Well; ambiguity is at least one of the
reasons why. Caveat Lector.
_