When Does A Christian Become Immortality/Born Again?

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Cameron143

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The Jews that were not intentionally "blinded" heard and chose to respond to the gospel message. Their actions was proof that faith came as a result of hearing the word of God; they believed what they were told. (Acts 2:37-41)

Consider that understanding predestination scriptures requires rightly dividing the word of truth. Paul makes reference to the fact that some Jews, were intentionally blinded in order that all of humanity would have the opportunity to be saved. See a portion of Paul's comments relative to this in Romans 11 below. Many Jews will remain blind until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

Paul stated whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This applies to Gentiles, and Jews who were not intentionally "blinded." Paul makes the point that obedience to the gospel is the result of faith produced by hearing the word of God:

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..." Rom 10:12-17



Note Paul's comments specific to the Jews:
Rom 11:7-11
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"
I don't disagree agree with this. My question is...how do people who are unrighteous, without understanding, not seeking after God, who are unprofitable, and never do good...come to faith? Or put another way, how do people who Paul describes in Ephesians 2:1-3 as dead, dominated, and doomed become alive? God? Themselves?
 

Nehemiah6

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I don't disagree agree with this. My question is...how do people who are unrighteous, without understanding, not seeking after God, who are unprofitable, and never do good...come to faith? Or put another way, how do people who Paul describes in Ephesians 2:1-3 as dead, dominated, and doomed become alive? God? Themselves?
Have you never read that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel)? Why do you think the Gospel should be preached "to every creature" other than to generate saving faith?
 

Wansvic

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Everyone who believes is immersed/baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/eph.1.13.ESV

This is how 1 John 5:1 can be true. Everyone who believes has been born of God. It is presented as having already happened.

“Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized (immersed) into Christ Jesus were baptized (immersed) into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism (immersion) into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭3‬-‭11‬ ‭ESV‬‬. Modified by adding immersed and immersion.

Mark 16:16 isn’t contradictory to this.
The word of God does not contradict itself. There is no contradiction when you realize both scriptures pertain to water baptism.
 

Cameron143

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Have you never read that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel)? Why do you think the Gospel should be preached "to every creature" other than to generate saving faith?
Once or twice. In fact, if you read the post I was responding to, it is mentioned, and I assented to it. So with that as a beginning point, feel free to answer the question I posed.
 

Wansvic

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I don't disagree agree with this. My question is...how do people who are unrighteous, without understanding, not seeking after God, who are unprofitable, and never do good...come to faith? Or put another way, how do people who Paul describes in Ephesians 2:1-3 as dead, dominated, and doomed become alive? God? Themselves?
As referenced, Paul makes the point that obedience to the gospel is the result of faith produced by hearing the word of God.
 

Nehemiah6

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Once or twice. In fact, if you read the post I was responding to, it is mentioned, and I assented to it. So with that as a beginning point, feel free to answer the question I posed.
Already answered. Focus on the Gospel. Too many do not believe that the Gospel itself has the power to generate saving faith.
 

Cameron143

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As referenced, Paul makes the point that obedience to the gospel is the result of faith produced by hearing the word of God.
Who produces the faith? What is involved in hearing?
 

Magenta

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Have you never read that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel)? Why
do you think the Gospel should be preached "to every creature" other than to generate saving faith?
Tilling soil... planting seeds...
 

Cameron143

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Already answered. Focus on the Gospel. Too many do not believe that the Gospel itself has the power to generate saving faith.
Exactly my point. Do the words...let there be light...always produce light? Or is it when God says them with intention that light comes?
 

JBTN

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The word of God does not contradict itself. There is no contradiction when you realize both scriptures pertain to water baptism.
Think about 1 John 5:1.

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1.ESV

If everyone who believes has already been born of God, it is impossible to fit physical water baptism in as a requirement for being born again. The only way this verse can be true is if a person is immersed into Christ by the Holy Spirit when they believe. That is what Ephesians 1:13 says. Romans 6 also says immersed into Christ, not immersed into water into Christ. Water has to be added to the inspired word.
 

DJT_47

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Think about 1 John 5:1.

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1.ESV

If everyone who believes has already been born of God, it is impossible to fit physical water baptism in as a requirement for being born again. The only way this verse can be true is if a person is immersed into Christ by the Holy Spirit when they believe. That is what Ephesians 1:13 says. Romans 6 also says immersed into Christ, not immersed into water into Christ. Water has to be added to the inspired word.
Don't stop at verse 1, that'll get you in trouble with scripture. Read a bit further, like through verse 3. See below. It goes on to say what? It says we must keep his commandments: and what are they? They include NOT just belief, but faith, confession of your belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch, repentance, as were told the Jews on the day of Pentecost, AND, baptism for the remission of sins, also as told the Jews on the day of Pentecost.

And what about Jesus own words as recorded in Mark 16:15-16, below too? Did he stop at belief? No: he included baptism as part of salvation. Belief and baptism in that passage are inextricably tied together, one department upon the other linked together by the conjunctive phrase "and is". And don't forget 2 Thes 1:8. It says obedience
to the gospel is required.

By your skewed logic, devils would be saved and are also "born of God" simply because they too believe. James also clarifies that.

You must use ALL scripture to clearly understand the subject matter of baptism and salvation as well as any other biblical topic.

1 John 5:1-3

1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

2 Thes 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
 

JBTN

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Don't stop at verse 1, that'll get you in trouble with scripture. Read a bit further, like through verse 3. See below. It goes on to say what? It says we must keep his commandments: and what are they? They include NOT just belief, but faith, confession of your belief as did the Ethiopian eunuch, repentance, as were told the Jews on the day of Pentecost, AND, baptism for the remission of sins, also as told the Jews on the day of Pentecost.

And what about Jesus own words as recorded in Mark 16:15-16, below too? Did he stop at belief? No: he included baptism as part of salvation. Belief and baptism in that passage are inextricably tied together, one department upon the other linked together by the conjunctive phrase "and is". And don't forget 2 Thes 1:8. It says obedience
to the gospel is required.

By your skewed logic, devils would be saved and are also "born of God" simply because they too believe. James also clarifies that.

You must use ALL scripture to clearly understand the subject matter of baptism and salvation as well as any other biblical topic.

1 John 5:1-3

1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Mark 16:15-16

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

2 Thes 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
I understand the following verses. It still doesn’t change the statement in 1 John 5:1. Everyone who believes has been born of God. It’s already happened. Verse 13 makes it even clearer. I don’t dispute that those who are saved will seek to keep his commandments. That’s all the following verses say.

If we are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit upon belief as Ephesians 1:13 says, that is baptism. It’s immersion into Christ. I agree that belief and baptism are tied together. We believe and the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. There are no issues with Mark 16:16, 1Peter 3:21, Galatians 3, Colossians 2, Romans 6, or Acts 2.

Obedience is satisfied. Belief is commanded. 1 John 3:23.

James doesn’t change anything either, we are absolutely shown to be righteous by our works. That is what justified (dikaioutai in Greek) means. I don’t think devils are covered under the New Covenant.
 

DJT_47

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I understand the following verses. It still doesn’t change the statement in 1 John 5:1. Everyone who believes has been born of God. It’s already happened. Verse 13 makes it even clearer. I don’t dispute that those who are saved will seek to keep his commandments. That’s all the following verses say.

If we are sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit upon belief as Ephesians 1:13 says, that is baptism. It’s immersion into Christ. I agree that belief and baptism are tied together. We believe and the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. There are no issues with Mark 16:16, 1Peter 3:21, Galatians 3, Colossians 2, Romans 6, or Acts 2.

Obedience is satisfied. Belief is commanded. 1 John 3:23.

James doesn’t change anything either, we are absolutely shown to be righteous by our works. That is what justified (dikaioutai in Greek) means. I don’t think devils are covered under the New Covenant.
Obedience to commandments must mean something and they are for a reason otherwise they are vain and God is not vain nor does he require you to do vain, meaningless things. They are necessary. Baptism is a commandment that must be obeyed on order to be saved. That's clearly what the scriptures say.
 

Wansvic

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Who produces the faith? What is involved in hearing?
As stated Paul revealed that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12

The following commentary conveys the principle far better than could I:

Hebrews 4:12
The "Word of God" is "what God speaks" - whether it be a promise or a threatening; whether it be Law or gospel; whether it be a simple declaration or a statement of a doctrine. The idea here is, that what "God had said" is suited to detect hypocrisy and to lay open the true nature of the feelings of the soul, so that there can be no escape for the guilty. His "truth" is adapted to bring out the real feelings, and to show man exactly what he is. Truth always has this power-whether preached, or read, or communicated by conversation, or impressed upon the memory and conscience by the Holy Spirit. There can be no escape from the penetrating, searching application of the Word of God. That truth has power to show what man is, and is like a penetrating sword that lays open the whole man; compare Isa 49:2. The phrase "the Word of God" here may be applied, therefore, to the "truth" of God, however made known to the mind. In some way it will bring out the real feelings, and show what man is.
[Is quick] Greek zoon - "living." It is not dead, inert, and powerless. It has a "living" power, and is energetic and active. It is "adapted" to produce this effect.
[And powerful] Mighty. Its power is seen in awakening the conscience; alarming the fears; laying bare the secret feelings of the heart, and causing the sinner to tremble with the apprehension of the coming judgment. All the great changes in the moral world for the better, have been caused by the power of truth. They are such as the truth in its own nature is suited to effect, and if we may judge of its power by the greatness of the revolutions produced, no words can over-estimate the might of the truth which God has revealed.
[Sharper than any two-edged sword] Literally, "two-mouthed" sword - distomon.
The word "mouth" was given to the sword because it seemed to "devour" all before it. It consumed or destroyed as a wild beast does. The comparison of the Word of God to a sword or to an arrow, is designed to show its power of penetrating the heart; Eccl 12:11, "The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies;" compare Isa 49:2. "And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;" Rev 1:16, "And out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword;" Rev 2:12,16; 19:15. The comparison is common in the classics, and in Arabic poetry; see Gesenius, on Isa 49:2. The idea is that of piercing, or penetrating; and the meaning here is, that the Word of God reaches the "heart" - the very center of action, and lays open the motives and feelings of the man. It was common among the ancients to have a sword with two edges. The Roman sword was commonly made in this manner. The fact that it had two edges made it more easy to penetrate, as well as to cut with every way.
[Piercing even to the dividing asunder] Penetrating so as to divide.[Soul and spirit] The animal life from the immortal soul. The former word here - psuchee - "soul" - is evidently used to denote the "animal life," as distinguished from the mind or soul.
The latter word - pneuma- "spirit" - means the soul; the immaterial and immortal part; what lives when the animal life is extinct. This distinction occurs in 1 Thess 5:23, "your whole spirit, and soul, and body;" and it is a distinction which we are constantly in the habit of making. There is the body in man-the animal life—and the immortal part that leaves the body when life is extinct. Mysteriously united, they constitute one man. When the animal life is separated from the soul, or when the soul leaves the animated body, the body dies, and life is extinct. To separate the one from the other is, therefore, the same as to take life—and this is the idea here, that the Word of God is like a sharp sword that inflicts deadly wounds. The sinner "dies;" that is, he becomes dead to his former hopes, or is "slain" by the Law; Rom 7:9, "I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." This is the power referred to here-the power of destroying the hopes of the sinner; cutting him down under conviction; and prostrating him as if a sword had pierced his heart.
[And of the joints and marrow] The figure is still continued of the sword that takes life. Such a sword would seem to penetrate even the joints and marrow of the body. It would separate the joints, and pierce through the very bones to the marrow. A similar effect, Paul says, is produced by truth. It seems to penetrate the very essence of the soul, and lay it all open to the view.
[And is a discerner of the thoughts] It shows what the thoughts and intentions are. Prof. Stuart, Bloomfield, and some others, suppose that the reference here is to "God" speaking by his word. But the more natural construction certainly is, to refer it to the Word or truth of God. It is true that God searches the heart, and knows the thoughts, but that is not the truth which is prominent here. It is, that the thoughts and intents of the heart are brought out to view by the Word of God. And can anyone doubt this? see Rom 7:7. Is it not true that people are made to see their real character under the exhibition of the truth of God? That in the light of the Law they see their past lives to be sinful? That the exhibition of truth calls to their recollection many long-forgotten sins? And that their real feelings are brought out when the truth of God is proclaimed? Men then are made to look upon their motives as they had never done before, and to see in their hearts feelings whose existence they would not have suspected if it had not been for the exhibition of the truth. The exhibition of the truth is like pouring down the beams of the sun at midnight on a dark world; and the truth lays open the real feelings of the sinner as that sun would disclose the clouds of wickedness that are now performed under cover of the night. Many a man has a deep and fixed hostility to God and to his gospel who might never be sensible of it if the truth was not faithfully proclaimed. The particular idea here is, that the truth of God will detect the feelings of the hypocrite and self-deceiver. They cannot always conceal their emotions, and the time will come when truth, like light poured into the soul, will reveal their unbelief and their secret sins. They who are cherishing a hope of salvation, therefore, should be on their guard lest they mistake the name for the reality.
Let us learn from this verse:
(1) The power of truth. It is "suited" to lay open the secret feelings of the soul. There is not an effect produced in awakening a sinner; or in his conviction, conversion, and sanctification, which the truth is not "adapted" to produce. The truth of God is not dead; nor suited to make people "worse;" nor designed merely to show its own "weakness," and to be a mere occasion on which the Holy Spirit acts on the mind; it is in its own nature FITTED to produce just the effects which are produced when it awakens, convicts, converts, and sanctifies the soul.
(2) The truth should be preached with the feeling that it is adapted to this end...
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
 

Wansvic

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Obedience to commandments must mean something and they are for a reason otherwise they are vain and God is not vain nor does he require you to do vain, meaningless things. They are necessary. Baptism is a commandment that must be obeyed on order to be saved. That's clearly what the scriptures say.
Agreed.

Scripture clearly reveals that obedience to the command is for the purpose of remitting one's sin as made possible by Jesus' sacrifice. Sin must be dealt with in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

The gospel message includes the requirement of obedience to water baptism as revealed first by John the Baptist: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
The voice of one crying in the wilderness, (preaching to those yet in darkness) Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." Mark 1:1-5

Water baptism later modified to include the name of Jesus as necessary when identifying with Him in His death, burial, and resurrection:

Jews instructed to do it:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

Paul instructed to do it:
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

Samaritans instructed to do it:
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." This was water baptism as later confirmed:
"(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." Acts 8:12-17

Gentiles instructed to do it:
"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:47-48

Paul still giving the instruction over 25 years AFTER it was presented at Pentecost:
"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This was water baptism as revealed by the next verse: "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

Note that all ethnic groups are represented; indicating the command is relevant for all mankind.
 

Cameron143

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As stated Paul revealed that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12

The following commentary conveys the principle far better than could I:

Hebrews 4:12
The "Word of God" is "what God speaks" - whether it be a promise or a threatening; whether it be Law or gospel; whether it be a simple declaration or a statement of a doctrine. The idea here is, that what "God had said" is suited to detect hypocrisy and to lay open the true nature of the feelings of the soul, so that there can be no escape for the guilty. His "truth" is adapted to bring out the real feelings, and to show man exactly what he is. Truth always has this power-whether preached, or read, or communicated by conversation, or impressed upon the memory and conscience by the Holy Spirit. There can be no escape from the penetrating, searching application of the Word of God. That truth has power to show what man is, and is like a penetrating sword that lays open the whole man; compare Isa 49:2. The phrase "the Word of God" here may be applied, therefore, to the "truth" of God, however made known to the mind. In some way it will bring out the real feelings, and show what man is.
[Is quick] Greek zoon - "living." It is not dead, inert, and powerless. It has a "living" power, and is energetic and active. It is "adapted" to produce this effect.
[And powerful] Mighty. Its power is seen in awakening the conscience; alarming the fears; laying bare the secret feelings of the heart, and causing the sinner to tremble with the apprehension of the coming judgment. All the great changes in the moral world for the better, have been caused by the power of truth. They are such as the truth in its own nature is suited to effect, and if we may judge of its power by the greatness of the revolutions produced, no words can over-estimate the might of the truth which God has revealed.
[Sharper than any two-edged sword] Literally, "two-mouthed" sword - distomon.
The word "mouth" was given to the sword because it seemed to "devour" all before it. It consumed or destroyed as a wild beast does. The comparison of the Word of God to a sword or to an arrow, is designed to show its power of penetrating the heart; Eccl 12:11, "The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies;" compare Isa 49:2. "And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword;" Rev 1:16, "And out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword;" Rev 2:12,16; 19:15. The comparison is common in the classics, and in Arabic poetry; see Gesenius, on Isa 49:2. The idea is that of piercing, or penetrating; and the meaning here is, that the Word of God reaches the "heart" - the very center of action, and lays open the motives and feelings of the man. It was common among the ancients to have a sword with two edges. The Roman sword was commonly made in this manner. The fact that it had two edges made it more easy to penetrate, as well as to cut with every way.
[Piercing even to the dividing asunder] Penetrating so as to divide.[Soul and spirit] The animal life from the immortal soul. The former word here - psuchee - "soul" - is evidently used to denote the "animal life," as distinguished from the mind or soul.
The latter word - pneuma- "spirit" - means the soul; the immaterial and immortal part; what lives when the animal life is extinct. This distinction occurs in 1 Thess 5:23, "your whole spirit, and soul, and body;" and it is a distinction which we are constantly in the habit of making. There is the body in man-the animal life—and the immortal part that leaves the body when life is extinct. Mysteriously united, they constitute one man. When the animal life is separated from the soul, or when the soul leaves the animated body, the body dies, and life is extinct. To separate the one from the other is, therefore, the same as to take life—and this is the idea here, that the Word of God is like a sharp sword that inflicts deadly wounds. The sinner "dies;" that is, he becomes dead to his former hopes, or is "slain" by the Law; Rom 7:9, "I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." This is the power referred to here-the power of destroying the hopes of the sinner; cutting him down under conviction; and prostrating him as if a sword had pierced his heart.
[And of the joints and marrow] The figure is still continued of the sword that takes life. Such a sword would seem to penetrate even the joints and marrow of the body. It would separate the joints, and pierce through the very bones to the marrow. A similar effect, Paul says, is produced by truth. It seems to penetrate the very essence of the soul, and lay it all open to the view.
[And is a discerner of the thoughts] It shows what the thoughts and intentions are. Prof. Stuart, Bloomfield, and some others, suppose that the reference here is to "God" speaking by his word. But the more natural construction certainly is, to refer it to the Word or truth of God. It is true that God searches the heart, and knows the thoughts, but that is not the truth which is prominent here. It is, that the thoughts and intents of the heart are brought out to view by the Word of God. And can anyone doubt this? see Rom 7:7. Is it not true that people are made to see their real character under the exhibition of the truth of God? That in the light of the Law they see their past lives to be sinful? That the exhibition of truth calls to their recollection many long-forgotten sins? And that their real feelings are brought out when the truth of God is proclaimed? Men then are made to look upon their motives as they had never done before, and to see in their hearts feelings whose existence they would not have suspected if it had not been for the exhibition of the truth. The exhibition of the truth is like pouring down the beams of the sun at midnight on a dark world; and the truth lays open the real feelings of the sinner as that sun would disclose the clouds of wickedness that are now performed under cover of the night. Many a man has a deep and fixed hostility to God and to his gospel who might never be sensible of it if the truth was not faithfully proclaimed. The particular idea here is, that the truth of God will detect the feelings of the hypocrite and self-deceiver. They cannot always conceal their emotions, and the time will come when truth, like light poured into the soul, will reveal their unbelief and their secret sins. They who are cherishing a hope of salvation, therefore, should be on their guard lest they mistake the name for the reality.
Let us learn from this verse:
(1) The power of truth. It is "suited" to lay open the secret feelings of the soul. There is not an effect produced in awakening a sinner; or in his conviction, conversion, and sanctification, which the truth is not "adapted" to produce. The truth of God is not dead; nor suited to make people "worse;" nor designed merely to show its own "weakness," and to be a mere occasion on which the Holy Spirit acts on the mind; it is in its own nature FITTED to produce just the effects which are produced when it awakens, convicts, converts, and sanctifies the soul.
(2) The truth should be preached with the feeling that it is adapted to this end...
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
It's an excellent commentary. It is through the word that we are quickened and made alive spiritually. This is as it should be as it was at the word of God that we were made spiritually dead. The imparted life engenders faith which is the only acceptable response to God...without faith it is impossible to please God.
Having been awakened to the truth about God, we respond according to this truth. All of this happened in verses 37 and 38 of Acts 2. But verse 38 never becomes a reality unless God does the inward work of verse 37. 3000 people had this done on Pentecost. Thousands more did not and did not respond.
It sounds like our disagreement isn't over the fact that God does the work of salvation, but when in the process it occurs. My contention is that dead people can't respond.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,662
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What I realize is that it's the word of God spoken of by Christ himself and must be obeyed. Disobey if you like at your own peril.
You realize that outside of His power being born again that it's impossible for us to "obey", right? I saw a few comments back you said

"It's not possible to be "born again" before you were baptized. How can you be born again while still in sin? You may think you were, but you weren't. Totally unscriptural." and,
"Belief + baptism = salvation".

How do you not see that you're selling a works based salvation? I testify right here and now that I went up to the front of the church when called and proclaimed my belief, I repeated the word and then a week or so later was Baptized for good measure and every step of the way assured by the pastor that I was saved. Yet I was not saved. Years later when God brought me to my knees in truth, at the moment when granting me repentance in truth, I was alone, I did not repeat a prayer, nor was I in a church at all. Heck in this moment the fact is that if I'd ever truly believed in God, I didn't then. I didn't cry out "God help me" or "Jesus I'm ready", I just cried "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I QUIT!!!"

I woke up the next day a new man, reborn in truth. I didn't even know what happen at first, but I knew whatever it was, it was God, and the Jesus was His Son. I can go into great detail about my whole testimony, but I just wanted to make these main points.

So I was NOT saved when Belief + baptism didn't = salvation the way it was presented, like it is here, and was ABSOLUTELY saved without a doubt, before I was baptized, when I did it again wanting to give the outward sign of being born again to my friends and family at church. So what you are saying in this conversation I KNOW are false for sure. There's no way it can be true. So please give this stance a bit more thought brother, because it's just not true and His followers should strive to find the truth.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
970
171
43
You realize that outside of His power being born again that it's impossible for us to "obey", right? I saw a few comments back you said

"It's not possible to be "born again" before you were baptized. How can you be born again while still in sin? You may think you were, but you weren't. Totally unscriptural." and,
"Belief + baptism = salvation".

How do you not see that you're selling a works based salvation? I testify right here and now that I went up to the front of the church when called and proclaimed my belief, I repeated the word and then a week or so later was Baptized for good measure and every step of the way assured by the pastor that I was saved. Yet I was not saved. Years later when God brought me to my knees in truth, at the moment when granting me repentance in truth, I was alone, I did not repeat a prayer, nor was I in a church at all. Heck in this moment the fact is that if I'd ever truly believed in God, I didn't then. I didn't cry out "God help me" or "Jesus I'm ready", I just cried "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I QUIT!!!"

I woke up the next day a new man, reborn in truth. I didn't even know what happen at first, but I knew whatever it was, it was God, and the Jesus was His Son. I can go into great detail about my whole testimony, but I just wanted to make these main points.

So I was NOT saved when Belief + baptism didn't = salvation the way it was presented, like it is here, and was ABSOLUTELY saved without a doubt, before I was baptized, when I did it again wanting to give the outward sign of being born again to my friends and family at church. So what you are saying in this conversation I KNOW are false for sure. There's no way it can be true. So please give this stance a bit more thought brother, because it's just not true and His followers should strive to find the truth.
You've bought into a bunch of man made-up nonsense with so-called works based salvation. Baptism is a command that must be obeyed; does it require something physical? Yes. Everything we do here is physical. So what? Preaching the word is physical. Baptism is not a work of the flesh nor of the law. Believe the simplicity of the words or don't: its your call.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
12,570
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You've bought into a bunch of man made-up nonsense with so-called works based salvation. Baptism is a command that must be obeyed; does it require something physical? Yes. Everything we do here is physical. So what? Preaching the word is physical. Baptism is not a work of the flesh nor of the law. Believe the simplicity of the words or don't: its your call.
Faith isn't physical. But it is evidenced by the physical.
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
970
171
43
Faith isn't physical. But it is evidenced by the physical.
You believe and have faith with your body; your brain, your heart, it's all done by and through your physical body although faith itself isn't tangible or physical but the means by which it's created within you is.