Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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#1
Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace..Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
4,255
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#2
Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace..Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
Notice how he speaks of ungodliness in the past tense ? He’s not saying feel free to keep living that way because of grace of you continue on in those epistles you find instruction that leads to repentance and right living fulfilling the promise of righteousness by faith


Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge ( hearing and believing the gospel of the kingdom )
after the image of him that created him:

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-10, 12-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the instructions about repenting from our old sinful ways and doing the new things walking in the good works the gospel sets before us is part of it all.

you have made good post here , I think if you let the rest of those epistles into your belief it will change what “ grace and faith “ means into a powerful effectual changing of the sinner into a child of God in deed and truth
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
127
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#4
Justification by Faith

Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead..

Rom 5:9,18-19

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood..to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time..Thats who Justified by His blood..

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ..

This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16,20

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Faithfulness Jesus Christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them.

Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel. But be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner.. 1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross. to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost..

Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood..

Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him..Jn 16:13-14

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them..

To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is fatal. And will not go unpunished. And only those not taught by our Covenant God is at peril.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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127
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#5
Notice how he speaks of ungodliness in the past tense ? He’s not saying feel free to keep living that way because of grace of you continue on in those epistles you find instruction that leads to repentance and right living fulfilling the promise of righteousness by faith


Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge ( hearing and believing the gospel of the kingdom )
after the image of him that created him:

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-10, 12-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the instructions about repenting from our old sinful ways and doing the new things walking in the good works the gospel sets before us is part of it all.

you have made good post here , I think if you let the rest of those epistles into your belief it will change what “ grace and faith “ means into a powerful effectual changing of the sinner into a child of God in deed and truth
I see you didn't understand a word I said in the op.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
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#6

Mofastus

Active member
May 23, 2019
277
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#7
This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.
there is a word about it though...

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#8
Did you understand the OP ?
sure I just noticed it is fragmented and skips over all The context to make a conclusion

Rom 4:5
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness”

single verse plucked out of a lot of skipped over content moving then to another single verse in a different letter

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

What I’m saying is we were( past tense ) like that but are called to repent of that and become like Christ. Which you seem to agree with

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

this I think is why I had posted what I did about last tense because God doesn’t justify the ungodly if they remain ungodly

“ Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are ( were, past tense ) dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are ( were paste tense ) by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. ( disagree there )

While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..”

partial agreement here but what I’m saying is he’s speaking to people I had repented of how they used to live thier lives , not approving of how they are living ungodly presently.


You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted.”


Again what I’m saying is Paul is speaking past tense to people who used to be ungodly because they had repented and believed the gospel they were now called to change their ways.


So you conclusion was this

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God.

Again my only point is when we take one verse out of the letter it’s written in we’re doing that at our own peril , Paul wasn’t saying your saved and allowed to remain on your sinful nature and still have inheritance he makes it really clear in every letter that receiving the spirit is a deposit and if we don’t change our ways the inheritance is going to not be ours

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so what I’m getting at is our sinful nature has to be left behind by us or we’re going to not have an inheritance at all our deeds will tell the story of enter faith is real or not

the thing I was saying is the sinful lives we used to live need to be left behind we aren’t saved in sin but from sin

“For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:8-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ died for us while all were in sin that’s true but he also calls us to come out of that and that’s not optional it’s the reason he died for the ungodly to call the. Into his glory and righteousness . To actually begin living upright and leaving the natural sinful nature behind

we have to honor what’s been done if we want the promise
 

Mofastus

Active member
May 23, 2019
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#9
Christ died for us while all were in sin that’s true but he also calls us to come out of that and that’s not optional it’s the reason he died for the ungodly to call the. Into his glory and righteousness . To actually begin living upright and leaving the natural sinful nature behind
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
4,255
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#10
Justification by Faith

Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead..

Rom 5:9,18-19

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood..to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time..Thats who Justified by His blood..

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ..

This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16,20

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Faithfulness Jesus Christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them.

Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel. But be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner.. 1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross. to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost..

Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood..

Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him..Jn 16:13-14

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them..

To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is fatal. And will not go unpunished. And only those not taught by our Covenant God is at peril.
it seems like evil deeds we continue doing and don’t repent of will be what’s not left Unpunished

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems like our deeds in Christ are what we are going to be faced with and not whether we say we have faith or not but did we act in faith of not ?

Do you agree we’re going to be judged by our deeds and either have eternal life

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

, or wrath , indignation , tribulation based on our continuance on doing the wrong things ?

“unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,”


so is faith just saying we’re justified or living that out in deed and truth repenting and walking in the good works of Christ ?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#11
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
amen and amen that’s why Paul insisted on this after we believe

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we hear that constantly as believers about maintaining a good life doing good and not evil we’re going to become faithful in what we do. And aren’t going to be complacent in our deeds but aware of our sins and repent and start walking in truth

I think this is a really important thing to accept for us all and if we accept it will wake us up to repentance and a living faith

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I wish we could hear Paul’s sermons for three years like the churches he wrote these short epistles back to later did . I think we would understand his doctrine much more and would find out it was the same gospel Jesus had preached beforehand.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#12
Solid follow up posts, guys.
And mad props to Mofastus for the new avatar. :)
 

Mofastus

Active member
May 23, 2019
277
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#13
I wish we could hear Paul’s sermons for three years like the churches he wrote these short epistles back to later did . I think we would understand his doctrine much more and would find out it was the same gospel Jesus had preached beforehand.
We do have enough and thoroughly furnished unto all good works:), everything any believer will need in seeking God for all time, Thank you Jesus! The thing is, is that God opens our eyes and ears through the Holy Spirit, if we would but enter, and that by following Him and knowing the fellowship of His sufferings.
 

Mofastus

Active member
May 23, 2019
277
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#14
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
4,255
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#15
We do have enough and thoroughly furnished unto all good works:), everything any believer will need in seeking God for all time, Thank you Jesus! The thing is, is that God opens our eyes and ears through the Holy Spirit, if we would but enter, and that by following Him and knowing the fellowship of His sufferings.
amen
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#16
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Amen partakers of his nature by the Holy Ghost given through the gospel of the kingdom

“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:3-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

as I said to the op I think he’s written a good post , it’s just that is where we begin and we then continue on in the gospel pressing forward into those promises of righteousness and hope of freedom from the old mans corruption and lit to death the misdeeds of the body .

I was only meaning in my response that there’s a lot more to being justified than saying Jesus died and rose even Paul didn’t think he was already justified but was waiting for Christ and his judgement to come so he spent his life pursuing the high calling of God hoping for resurrection in him

“For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the scripture offers us hope in Christ and also exhortation in Christ to press into those promises by making our life a dedication to him who suffered and died so we could have such a hope as to rise from death together in his glory
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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113
#18
Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
Since all are ungodly and all are sinful, all may be justified by grace through faith. But few will enter the narrow gate.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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#19
there is a word about it though...

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Friend the Holy Ghost didn't die for sins, neither does scripture declare that. You quoting that scripture is pointless in that regard.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,746
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#20
sure I just noticed it is fragmented and skips over all The context to make a conclusion

Rom 4:5
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness”

single verse plucked out of a lot of skipped over content moving then to another single verse in a different letter

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

What I’m saying is we were( past tense ) like that but are called to repent of that and become like Christ. Which you seem to agree with

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

this I think is why I had posted what I did about last tense because God doesn’t justify the ungodly if they remain ungodly

“ Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are ( were, past tense ) dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are ( were paste tense ) by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. ( disagree there )

While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..”

partial agreement here but what I’m saying is he’s speaking to people I had repented of how they used to live thier lives , not approving of how they are living ungodly presently.


You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted.”


Again what I’m saying is Paul is speaking past tense to people who used to be ungodly because they had repented and believed the gospel they were now called to change their ways.


So you conclusion was this

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God.

Again my only point is when we take one verse out of the letter it’s written in we’re doing that at our own peril , Paul wasn’t saying your saved and allowed to remain on your sinful nature and still have inheritance he makes it really clear in every letter that receiving the spirit is a deposit and if we don’t change our ways the inheritance is going to not be ours

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so what I’m getting at is our sinful nature has to be left behind by us or we’re going to not have an inheritance at all our deeds will tell the story of enter faith is real or not

the thing I was saying is the sinful lives we used to live need to be left behind we aren’t saved in sin but from sin

“For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:8-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ died for us while all were in sin that’s true but he also calls us to come out of that and that’s not optional it’s the reason he died for the ungodly to call the. Into his glory and righteousness . To actually begin living upright and leaving the natural sinful nature behind

we have to honor what’s been done if we want the promise
You just being contentious regarding the truth i highlighted out of the contet.