Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Noose]

That’s what the Bible says.
John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Nothing there about works.

That's the intention. It is talking about the world- means everyone has the right.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—

'Right to' doesn't mean already done. You can have the right to enter a door but it's your choice to use the right.

 

[Nat2019]

What is the different between work done in righteousness and work done for god through faith, can you give example?

Matt 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Seem to me people in verse 22 have faith that they are save, save by faith but Jesus say no

In the church I always hear the teaching if you believe by faith you are save than you are save

People in verse 22 believe they are save but

Acts 19:11-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Miracles Glorify Christ
11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, [a]“We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, [c]overpowered them, and prevailed against [d]them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

Seven sons of sceva, a Jewish chief priest could cast out demons. Not only Gods children.

 

[Defenderofgrace]

dc, your "not by works" thread has competition

 

[Noose]

The difference between Abraham and David was that Abraham lived under an unconditional covenant from God, before the Law was given, as you have stated.

Thus, when he marry his half sister, which was an abomination under the Law, and he also "misled" the Pharaoh twice regarding Sarah not being his wife, God instead appeared in the Pharaoh dream and called Abraham a prophet. We are under the same unconditional covenant as Abraham.

David was living under the Law, and his terrible choices led to both consequences from God (Striking down his son), as well as natural consequences (Amnon raping the sister and the problems of Absalom)

They both had faith. Their faith was not different from our faith. Their faith is used as an example to teach us faith, so faith is faith whether in old covenant or not. Regardless, they still made personal choices, meaning that your faith also is not an automatic ticket to salvation, your choices matter.

 

[Nat2019]

Proverbs 21:23
Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble.

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless

Proverbs 20:19
Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets; therefore do not associate with a simple babbler.

Matthew 12:36
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Psalm 101:5
Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure.

Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

Proverbs 18:8
The words of a whisperer are like delicious morsels; they go down into the inner parts of the body.

Proverbs 26:20
For lack of wood the fire goes out, and where there is no whisperer, quarreling ceases.

2 Timothy 2:16
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, transgression is not lacking, but whoever restrains his lips is prudent.

 

[Guojing]

They both had faith. Their faith was not different from our faith. Their faith is used as an example to teach us faith, so faith is faith whether in old covenant or not. Regardless, they still made personal choices, meaning that your faith also is not an automatic ticket to salvation, your choices matter.

You understand the difference between an unconditional and a conditional covenant?

 

[Jackson123]

Seem to me son of sceva try to do but not successful

 

[Nat2019]

Apparently many Anti OSAS are being put on ignore. WOW, the truth makes people want to close their ears.

Seem to me son of sceva try to do but not successful

the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all[a] of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

 

[Noose]

You understand the difference between an unconditional and a conditional covenant?

What do you mean by conditional or unconditional covenant. There's no such thing.

Heb 11:
1Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see. 2This is why the ancients were commended.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”a For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in godly fear built an ark to save his family. By faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
....
13All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
.......
39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

Heb 12:
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

 

[Nat2019]

It seems like OSAS just want to be "right". I am here to help people learn the truth, not to prove myself in anyway. This is not a competition of who is better.

I use scriptures to back up what I believe and many of these long messages OSAS provide do not even make sense. The bible seems like a lot of confusion to them. I just see a bible verse for what it is and use back up scriptures. To help my understanding. Most messages from OSAS believers look like they just want to be right. Most messages are just personal attacks and wording they use from their OSAS. They all sound exactly the same. And also they are not really providing enough scriptural evidence to back up their beliefs. You have 1 verse with about 10 paragraphs explaining it??????. I think this, I think that. It all a bunch of personal comments about the bible. You only need to write a small paragraph about the explanation. This is why I never read them, because the comments are so long and alot of them dont even make sense.

Popular catch phrases of OSAS

*I am forgiven for my past, present, future sins.
*I have "imputed" righteousness
*All my sins are covered
*Legalism
*Earn salvation
*Working for Salvation
*Deceiver
*Self righteousness
*Righteousness as filthy rags.

Read how many OSAS believers contain these "catch phrases in each post.

Wow and apparently I am brainwashed. All my posts are different to other anti-Osas believers. We all have different posts.

 

[Jackson123]

Apparently many Anti OSAS are being put on ignore. WOW, the truth makes people want to close their ears.
the evil spirit leaped on them, mastered all[a] of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Did people with evil spirit prophecy in Jesus name?

 

[Nat2019]

Did people with evil spirit prophecy in Jesus name?

Have to research that issue. I dont think anyone in Jesus name did prophecy, but they cast out demons. If I am wrong someone please give the scripture

 

[Noose]

Have to research that issue. I dont think anyone in Jesus name did prophecy, but they cast out demons. If I am wrong someone please give the scripture

2 Thess 2:9The coming of the lawless one will beaccompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and FALSE wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

Revelation 13:14
Because of the signs it was given to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived.

 

[Guojing]

What do you mean by conditional or unconditional covenant. There's no such thing.
.

Hmm, interesting you are not aware of this. Here is the covenant that God made with Abraham, found in Genesis 12

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

You realized all these is what God says he will do? Its not tied to Abraham's performance. That is what unconditional covenant meant.

 

[Noose]

Hmm, interesting you are not aware of this. Here is the covenant that God made with Abraham, found in Genesis 12

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

You realized all these is what God says he will do? Its not tied to Abraham's performance. That is what unconditional covenant meant.

2 Chr 7:14and My people whoare called by My name humble themselves and prayand seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways,then I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Yes they do

If we are justified by faith not works

Then OSAS stands

If we are NOT justified by faith bot works
Then OSAS fails. Ie we have to EARN salvation.

This as a simple point is linking justification with faith.
If faith does not exist, has disappeared then so has the justification.

The jump is to ignore this obvious reality, and focus on works, which
scripture specifically does not say justifies us.

What is strange is the affirmation we are justified by faith, does not answer
the point, no faith no justification which is the real point needing to be addressed.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Verse 22 is referring to the pharisees. Who did everything for the benefit of others but not God.
They disobeyed God. They didnt do wonderful works for God, but only to look good in front of others.

Unfortunately Jesus cannot be addressing the pharisees. Jesus is addressing those who call Him Lord.
So put simply it is about followers of Jesus. The pharisees did not follow Jesus therefore cannot be
about them.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Maybe you've had a quiet and unburdened life to be to stay pure in heart. There just doesn't seem to be any guile in your mouth, which is to be admired, (especially in this place) I gather then you are male? You sound so gentle I thought you were female, hope you take no offence, you remind me of my mother, her personality. She was very wise and kind, everybody loved her. She suffered hurts and losses, which I know you have too, but you remain so kind. Such a breath of fresh air, and the world would be a better place with more like you.

Thank you, it is kind of you. In Jesus we are called to have hearts of flesh, so learning how to
develop such things is a choice as well as obedience. Gods handiwork cannot be rushed, so
often we are very impatient, when the steps we need to learn just take time. God bless you

 

[Nat2019]

Unfortunately Jesus cannot be addressing the pharisees. Jesus is addressing those who call Him Lord.
So put simply it is about followers of Jesus. The pharisees did not follow Jesus therefore cannot be
about them.

What scripture verse was this again? I lost it.

 

[Nat2019]

What scripture verse was this again? I lost it.

Sorry I think I Got confused wi

This quote proves you don't know what you are talking about.....THEY DONE NOTHING in the NAME OF JESUS, they hated his guts and wanted to KILL HIM.....man you take the cake for just spewing belief with NO understanding......

MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME SAYING....

SHOW 2 sets of scriptures where the PHARISEES done ANYTHING in the NAME OF JESUS.......we will ALL WAIT

Listen here I am not here to prove a point with you. I will pray to God about this issue and I am going to read these entire passages when i am not tired. I am sick at the moment and haven't had sleep. For a while. So I will sit down and read both chapters when I am feeling better.