Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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1 Corinthians 2:6-8
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I think I will stick with scripture rather than believe those who think we should listen carefully to them about their allegedly having lost their eternal salvation, or have seen others who allegedly lost theirs. I can't find one verse anywhere that protrays anyone becoming UNborn again. That must be some phenomenon to behold in dreams...
MM
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
I think I will stick with scripture rather than believe those who think we should listen carefully to them about their allegedly having lost their eternal salvation, or have seen others who allegedly lost theirs. I can't find one verse anywhere that protrays anyone becoming UNborn again. That must be some phenomenon to behold in dreams...
MM
2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a [c]message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
This is stated plainly.
"But Edify, I searched on Google & the majority says christians can't apostatize!"
"But reader, there's statements all over the NT that many christians will fall from the faith & turn to doctrines of demons & fables."
"But Edify, how can all those on the internet be wrong?"
"Because the New Testament says so."
Let God be true & every man a liar.
This is stated plainly.
"But Edify, I searched on Google & the majority says christians can't apostatize!"
"But reader, there's statements all over the NT that many christians will fall from the faith & turn to doctrines of demons & fables."
"But Edify, how can all those on the internet be wrong?"
"Because the New Testament says so."
Let God be true & every man a liar.
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No.
"If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
I know many people who are believers but I cannot build with them because they are not doing what the Lord is doing. The baptism of fire is suffering that comes to the believer by the hand of the Lord. It is an immersion in correction intended to separate the worldly traditions (dross) from the incorruptible (eternal life).
Many churches would have us believe that salvation to go to heaven is like a turn-style, in and out, in and out, ad nauseam. Nonsense. However, the believer who treats sin like a non-issue will find him or herself embroiled in controversy and loss. The Lord intends for such things to produce repentance. Sometimes people die before they repent.
Not since I was renewed by Christ. I have suffered loss because of sin, but that was the Lord's refining fire in my life.
The Eternal lifestyle is not obtained by a rational path (Here, think this way and you're good.") No, eternal lifestyle is learned by the things we suffer. For us, it's sometimes because we sin AND sometimes because we are simply being refined (like the loss of a friend).
Jesus never suffered because of any personal sin. He was sinless. But He did suffer as He was being refined and learned obedience to the Father because of it.
"..though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him..."
All sons of God likewise suffer (punished like a coach punishes players) so that they may be perfected. This is all by the hand of the Lord.
"If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
I know many people who are believers but I cannot build with them because they are not doing what the Lord is doing. The baptism of fire is suffering that comes to the believer by the hand of the Lord. It is an immersion in correction intended to separate the worldly traditions (dross) from the incorruptible (eternal life).
Many churches would have us believe that salvation to go to heaven is like a turn-style, in and out, in and out, ad nauseam. Nonsense. However, the believer who treats sin like a non-issue will find him or herself embroiled in controversy and loss. The Lord intends for such things to produce repentance. Sometimes people die before they repent.
Not since I was renewed by Christ. I have suffered loss because of sin, but that was the Lord's refining fire in my life.
The Eternal lifestyle is not obtained by a rational path (Here, think this way and you're good.") No, eternal lifestyle is learned by the things we suffer. For us, it's sometimes because we sin AND sometimes because we are simply being refined (like the loss of a friend).
Jesus never suffered because of any personal sin. He was sinless. But He did suffer as He was being refined and learned obedience to the Father because of it.
"..though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him..."
All sons of God likewise suffer (punished like a coach punishes players) so that they may be perfected. This is all by the hand of the Lord.
The acid test for presumed doctrines is REALITY, such as anyone allegedly losing their eternal salvation.
Who here has ever lost their eternal salvation at any time in the past? If pointing the finger at anyone else for allegedly having lost their salvation, how does one know another who has ever lost THEIR salvation, and HOW does one know that about another? Mere testimony? Feelings? Emotions? What was the acid test for proof in those cases? Assumptions? Presumed authority over the matter of what's in another's heart?
Come on! SOMEONE who claims that such can and does happen has some proof...right?
MM
Who here has ever lost their eternal salvation at any time in the past? If pointing the finger at anyone else for allegedly having lost their salvation, how does one know another who has ever lost THEIR salvation, and HOW does one know that about another? Mere testimony? Feelings? Emotions? What was the acid test for proof in those cases? Assumptions? Presumed authority over the matter of what's in another's heart?
Come on! SOMEONE who claims that such can and does happen has some proof...right?
MM
Because God's plan of redemption included the world (men), the Lamb of God (who we know is Jesus) must have a "witness of perfection" to the world. It is not enough to simply change the rules by power. God, Who is All-Powerful can do that with ease. He must also SHOW that He is correct. This is a witness to all men, even those who remain dead in their sins.
The Devil did not do this knowing the end from the beginning. But, what the Devil meant for evil, the Lord redeemed for good. By tempting Jesus, and by Jesus never caving to the pressure, Jesus was able to show He was worthy of the mantel of "Christ" given to Him by His Father... our Father. Whereas once the law would show all men to be unworthy of life from God, now, through Christ and in Christ, all men can be brought to God... by grace through faith.
The Devil did not do this knowing the end from the beginning. But, what the Devil meant for evil, the Lord redeemed for good. By tempting Jesus, and by Jesus never caving to the pressure, Jesus was able to show He was worthy of the mantel of "Christ" given to Him by His Father... our Father. Whereas once the law would show all men to be unworthy of life from God, now, through Christ and in Christ, all men can be brought to God... by grace through faith.
Very well said.
That's a unique way of putting it, but I can't necessarily argue with it. The fires of testing do indeed serve as a barrier against inferior works meriting any kind of eternal reward of any merit.
Amen.
Yes. Again, well said. This further demonstrates the irrationality behind the thought of losing eternal salvation. It begs the question of the power we possess as mere humans with no power. Some will assume that they are adding to their salvation through works, and yet believe that their works have the power to nullify life everlasting in eternity. If that power were real, and went one direction, then it would certainly go the other direction, but we simply have no such power, which further demonstrates the ludicrous nature of some beliefs that are self-contradictory.
Amen.
What we can further ask is how anyone who was truly saved and born again could ever go back to a position in life whereby they have the power to reverse the saving power of the Most High? Assuming such is human pride of a sort that I am not able to fathom, and don't really care to try.
Blessings to you and yours.
MM
That's a unique way of putting it, but I can't necessarily argue with it. The fires of testing do indeed serve as a barrier against inferior works meriting any kind of eternal reward of any merit.
Amen.
Yes. Again, well said. This further demonstrates the irrationality behind the thought of losing eternal salvation. It begs the question of the power we possess as mere humans with no power. Some will assume that they are adding to their salvation through works, and yet believe that their works have the power to nullify life everlasting in eternity. If that power were real, and went one direction, then it would certainly go the other direction, but we simply have no such power, which further demonstrates the ludicrous nature of some beliefs that are self-contradictory.
Amen.
What we can further ask is how anyone who was truly saved and born again could ever go back to a position in life whereby they have the power to reverse the saving power of the Most High? Assuming such is human pride of a sort that I am not able to fathom, and don't really care to try.
Blessings to you and yours.
MM
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I don't believe so.
I know of a man who was known for being a clear voice of the Lord. He said that a certain candidate for U.S. president would be elected. When the man was not elected people asked him "Why were you wrong?"
He said "Sometimes God doesn't speak clearly."
The man died in a car crash days later.
I believe he went to be with the Lord but was removed from the earth because he said that God is sometimes unclear. Had this man been any ordinary believer perhaps he would not have been removed so suddenly. But he was well-known and was in a position of prominence.
Like "prophets who are known by their fruit"... only mature trees produce fruit. Someone learning to hear the Lord is not held to the same standard as one who has wisdom and experience. This is why the fear of the Lord is essential for anyone in church leadership: it matters what they do to a greater degree.
I know of a man who was known for being a clear voice of the Lord. He said that a certain candidate for U.S. president would be elected. When the man was not elected people asked him "Why were you wrong?"
He said "Sometimes God doesn't speak clearly."
The man died in a car crash days later.
I believe he went to be with the Lord but was removed from the earth because he said that God is sometimes unclear. Had this man been any ordinary believer perhaps he would not have been removed so suddenly. But he was well-known and was in a position of prominence.
Like "prophets who are known by their fruit"... only mature trees produce fruit. Someone learning to hear the Lord is not held to the same standard as one who has wisdom and experience. This is why the fear of the Lord is essential for anyone in church leadership: it matters what they do to a greater degree.
I didn't think we were speaking about that arena. I was speaking strictly in terms of salvation...everlasting salvation in eternity. Where it's true that some will have no rewards, and therefore saved as by through fire, with all their works having been burned away in the fires of testing, they are still saved no matter what.
As to the other topic that you touched upon, in relation to deliverance from earthly trappings and burdens of sin in a life, yes. I agreed with you on that item. Deliverance from the sinful burdens and entrapments, I do indeed agree, but my focus has been upon the claims for losing everlasting salvation, and some thinking that we mortals have the power to nullify the power in the Blood of Christ for salvation. None of them has a case in point, and neither can they explain the magical mechanism they seem to believe in whereby a mere human has such power. It's all doctrinal fancy and fantasy.
There's too much happy-go-lucky fancies some exercise in thinking that they can inject salvation into any and all references to fire and loss mentioned throughout scripture.
MM
As to the other topic that you touched upon, in relation to deliverance from earthly trappings and burdens of sin in a life, yes. I agreed with you on that item. Deliverance from the sinful burdens and entrapments, I do indeed agree, but my focus has been upon the claims for losing everlasting salvation, and some thinking that we mortals have the power to nullify the power in the Blood of Christ for salvation. None of them has a case in point, and neither can they explain the magical mechanism they seem to believe in whereby a mere human has such power. It's all doctrinal fancy and fantasy.
There's too much happy-go-lucky fancies some exercise in thinking that they can inject salvation into any and all references to fire and loss mentioned throughout scripture.
MM
Oh yeah. It's because many are myopic when they read "salvation" or "saved". They think it always deals with "going to Heaven when you die." And why not: it was the penalty the Roman church threatened the people with. That's why all the jokes have Peter at the gates of heaven. It was a great fund-raiser: "sign up or die in Hell".