Why is Christ called “The Lion of the tribe of Judah”?

[Pilgrimshope]

Didn't I say that? I did. I'm not trying to argue that he's "refurbishing the old covenant" or that he wasn't caught up to heaven... or that any scripture you posted isn't true.


Peter said that that world perished in the flood- and the present one is reserved for fire. So, maybe there are at least 3.

Naw look at the record of the flood the waters flooded everything killed all flesh then receded and continued with zgod making a new covenant with Noah and his sons for the earth

“Didn't I say that? I did. I'm not trying to argue that he's "refurbishing the old covenant" or that he wasn't caught up to heaven... or that any scripture you posted isn't true.”

you aren’t understanding the connection I don’t think. The old covenant was conditional it could be fulfilled as a blessing Israel’s kingdom would rule this world if they had kept the covenant . But if they broke the covenant israel would become a curse that would spread through the earth. And curse it to doom

the point of saying this it seems like your missing . The old covenant blessings aren’t coming instead they broke the covenant and we’re cursed all of those blessing would have come if they had kept the covenant they didn’t they rejected it all along and then rejected thier king and savior who came to give them a new covenant that would save them

you aren’t understanding my point tbe ot was conditional based only on what Gid said and they did

“in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:16-19‬ ‭

the thkngs you are arguing for being fulfilled aren’t coming the restoration of the temple , a kingdom on this earth for Israel according to the ot promises ect that’s the point of what I’m saying

they didn’t hold up thier end of the covenant so rether than a glorification of Israel ot became thier desolation

they never repented and accepted the messiah

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

(they didn’t cease from sin or make reconciliation they rejected and killed the messiah )

…..And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come ( rome ) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; ( Matthew 24)

and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭9:24, 26KJV‬‬

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet( John the Baptist ) before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They rejected and beheaded John and then rejected and crucified Jesus rhier king .

Read this parable it’s what it’s talking about Israel’s rejection of Christ and losing thier inheritance in the kingdom

“Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, ( God ) which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, ( israel ) and went into a far country: and when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. ( isreals rejection of the prophets he sent them )

Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.( isreals rejection of the latter messianic prophets )

But last of all he sent unto them his son, ( Jesus messiah promised son of man the king ) saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. ( isreal rejected and had Jesus crucified )



When the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, ( when he returns ) what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:33-41, 43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the point is nonone should be waiting for Israel’s covenant blessing they rejected him and chose a curse it’s desolate those things aren’t going to happen they would have had to repent and keep the covenant

 

[SomeDisciple]

you aren’t understanding the connection I don’t think. The old covenant was conditional it could be fulfilled as a blessing Israel’s kingdom would rule this world if they had kept the covenant . But if they broke the covenant israel would become a curse that would spread through the earth. And curse it to doom

Jesus fulfilled the covenant; and the earth had already been cursed since the garden.

It doesn't sound like you're talking about the OC promises- you're saying that prophecy is not going to be fulfilled. "the prophets", though part of the Old Testament; is not part of the Sinai Covenant or it's laws which are fulfilled.

Zechariah 14, for example, is not a "promise" in the old covenant law that is dependent on keeping law or anything else. It is a prophecy of events that the Lord is saying is going to happen.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus fulfilled the covenant; and the earth had already been cursed since the garden.

It doesn't sound like you're talking about the OC promises- you're saying that prophecy is not going to be fulfilled. "the prophets", though part of the Old Testament; is not part of the Sinai Covenant or it's laws which are fulfilled.

Zechariah 14, for example, is not a "promise" in the old covenant law that is dependent on keeping law or anything else. It is a prophecy of events that the Lord is saying is going to happen.

“Jesus fulfilled the covenant; and the earth had already been cursed since the garden. “

The curses follow the covenants he makes with man like this

….

the beginning

“And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:8-9, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is always the case the blessing was already adams and he’s warned about the curse of death.

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them….
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My point is the curse is only attatched to sin , transgressing the true warnings of god meant to keep us safe if we believe him , like this

there he put the man whom he had formed….. the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: …thou shalt surely die.”

if they keep this there’s no curse of th y break it they’ll certainly die

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now and only now is Adam under a curse. And only because he did not keep Gods commandment before he transgressed he is blessed

but remember that Gods Will isnt to destroy man it’s to redeem us after the fall into sin and death. What I mean is Adams transgression , is t the reason cain was cursed cain eas cursed again because God told him to do what it right but if he didn’t sin would take him . And cain didn’t heed Gods commandment. So my point is the curse on earth is not found in righteousness and obedience to God not found when we listen to his word and keep them.

It’s always the same he sets man in a place where they can choose life by believing him and following his word , whatever covenant he makes with them , and also he earns them of a curse of death if they go astray and serve sin

like this

“Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:26-28‬ ‭

“If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate:
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is finally when God began to determine that he would not spare this world like after the flood and repair it but destroy it and make a new creation is my point. You are correct there’s always been a curse on earth because of man from Adam but Hod continually offers a blessing to the next covenant people like this after the flood

“And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God had destroyed the ones under the curse and cleansed the earth destroying the world of flesh that was but Noah he offers the original covenant he made with Adam and Eve I’m genesis 1:26 a new beginning for the earth. After the floods receded

The last line of the prophets is talking about the wrath of the lamb and final judgements on earth when it will be destroyed by fire as Peter explains in 1 ptr 3 and many others explain also . That’s a result of rejecting salvation . Salvation is to be saved from that fiery end to come at judgement day when Jesus returns

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s based upon rejecting the gospel nothing Adam did brother Jesus came to save isreal from thier curses and they rejected him and killed him and Jerusalem was destroyed as was foretold would happen tenple and all has been destroyed for about 2000 years now Jerusalem still controlled by Muslims Christians and Jews the temple mound is still where a Muslim mosque sits proclaiming god has no son . It’s still war torn and threatened and attacked constantly on all sides like the Bible said it would be the old covenant could have been a blessing for Israel but it was fulfilled as a curse because they would listen the ot is based upon conditional circumstances the only thing that isn’t is Christ he’s been promised from the beginning he fulfilled those things about himself in the ot like that he would be lifted to David’s rn rome forever in heaven at Gods right hand then return and destroy the earth with fire saving his people first and then laying waste to earth with fire

so he offered salvstion to everyone before the end of the world just as he did israel before thier deetruction in 70 ad the ot blessings promised tbrough thier covenant law aren’t going to happen they were conditional based on thier own behavior and successes obeying God

I’m talking about this curse that’s universal based on Christ and our acceptance or rejection of the gospel the everlasting word of life and all


“and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

salvation is from that curse upon those who reject him and the gospel is the only salvstion we have on earth Jew or not

 

[SomeDisciple]

ot is based upon conditional circumstances the only thing that isn’t is Christ he’s been promised from the beginning he fulfilled those things about himself in the ot like that he would be lifted to David’s rn rome forever in heaven at Gods right hand then return and destroy the earth with fire saving his people first and then laying waste to earth with fire

So, basically you're saying Jesus doesn't have to fulfill the things written about him in the prophets (like Zech14)... those things were conditional, and the prophets are cancelled?

Because Jesus definitely said that he had to fulfill the things written about him.

Who do you think the Holy Ones are in Zech14?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So, basically you're saying Jesus doesn't have to fulfill the things written about him in the prophets (like Zech14)... those things were conditional, and the prophets are cancelled?

Because Jesus definitely said that he had to fulfill the things written about him.

Who do you think the Holy Ones are in Zech14?

“So, basically you're saying Jesus doesn't have to fulfill the things written about him in the prophets”
Brother this isn’t working you are hearing a lot of things I’m not saying and just going from one argument to the next . I’m sure I’m doing the same things from your perspective So I’m not trying to say it’s your fault lol just that we don’t seem to be understanding each other

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying concerning zechariah 14 is that it’s referring to the generation Jesus lives in when all the prophets had written would be fulfilled

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. ( 67-70 ad rome besieged and destroyed Jerusalem and it’s temple )

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20, 22, 31-32‬ ‭

jerusalem was destroyed in that generation

There are two Jerusalems one on earth
one in heaven

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t know brother this doesn’t seem to be working for us this time , we aren’t really hearing each other .

But I really appreciate the good conversation in a good spirit without insults or anything as always when you are involved

And hope to discuss again in the future

 

[SomeDisciple]

How do preterists look at Zech14 and see the 70AD seige of Jerusalem?

1) I don't know if the Empire could really count as "all the nations/gentiles"... but I'll just concede this one for now.

2) half Jerusalem's people might have went into exile; but nobody was left in the city- it got turned into a military base.

3) The cue for Christians to leave happened 3 years before the seige began. So, Christians should not have even been there to begin with. No need for a specially made mountain valley to escape.

4) The Lord did not fight the Romans, or strike anyone else with this epic face melting plague.

5) There were no survivors of this plague, because it never happened; and most people don't even know what the Feast of Tabernacles is.

I don't see how any amount of 'spiritualizing' the text could possibly make it resemble the seige of Jerusalem; in fact it looks more like the opposite of what happened.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How do preterists look at Zech14 and see the 70AD seige of Jerusalem?

1) I don't know if the Empire could really count as "all the nations/gentiles"... but I'll just concede this one for now.

2) half Jerusalem's people might have went into exile; but nobody was left in the city- it got turned into a military base.

3) The cue for Christians to leave happened 3 years before the seige began. So, Christians should not have even been there to begin with. No need for a specially made mountain valley to escape.

4) The Lord did not fight the Romans, or strike anyone else with this epic face melting plague.

5) There were no survivors of this plague, because it never happened; and most people don't even know what the Feast of Tabernacles is.

I don't see how any amount of 'spiritualizing' the text could possibly make it resemble the seige of Jerusalem; in fact it looks more like the opposite of what happened.

“And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. …And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. …..Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:5-6, 20-24, 32 ‭KJV‬‬

jesus said this about twenty or thirty years before rome destroyed Jerusalem

hes saying

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

your saying Jesus is spiritualizing because he’s explaining the prophets are going to be fulfilled everything they said about Jerusalems destruction is about to happen in thier generation but your saying that is spiritualizing things maybe you don’t agree with what’s really there for instance let’s see if Jesus os spiritualizing this too

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus has just revealed his glory on the Mount

“And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?”

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly should first come, and restore all things.

But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭1:13, 15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Remember the prophecy ?

“I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers”

Is it “ spiritualizing “ to just accept that the New Testament is how the Old Testament is fulfilled ? That for instance John is the fulfillment of the oroohecy about Elijah coming before the day of the lord . It seems more like acknolwedging the basic design of the Bible

of prophecy…and then fuflillment

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

last promise of the ot is Elijah would come before the lord arrived

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Which shall prepare thy way before thee. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-2, 4, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s alright if you don’t agree lol I wouldn’t say it’s wrong tbough to believe the new testements interpretations of things and then say it’s spiritualizing something I’m pretty sure Jesus already did that for us our place is to believe it


“This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:13-154 ‭NIV‬‬

For instance Jesus was the one explainkng that the wrath wortten on the prophets was about to happen in that generation warning believers about it

You might benefit from spiritual thinking if it comes from here

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We try to make God fulfill thkngs the way we determine he’s fulfilling everything in Christ and the gospel once for all and inviting us to be a part of it this earth and everything in it isnt the right place to look for God or his kingdom

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[SomeDisciple]

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Yes: so, when Jesus said that when he was baptized it was to fulfill all righteousness- he didn't mean that being baptized was the only thing he had to do. It was just one of the things he did in order that he might fulfill all righteousness. In this same manner, the days of vengeance had to occur, so that all things that are written may be fulfilled. It doesn't mean that all things written that need to be fulfilled are about the days of vengeance. Rather, the days of vengeance are a part of "all things that are written" that are fulfilled. In the OT, there are lots of prophecies about God's vengeance. They all happen; but they don't happen all at the same time and place.

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly should first come, and restore all things.

Bro; what translation is this from? That Elijah "should" come? Every version of the bible on biblehub has Jesus saying ELIJAH WILL COME AND RESTORE ALL THINGS- or some semantic variation of that; not that he "should", "could" or "would" come and "should", "could" or "would" restore all things.

ast promise of the ot is Elijah would come before the lord arrived

Specifically, before the Day of the Lord. Which will come like a thief; the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works laid bare. Some on this forum have said the "elements" meant "the temple". I think "the elements" means... the elements.