Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[presidente]

The Corinthian list is what the Apostles had and distributed through their hands. The same as Philip the Evangelist who they laid hands on and he did Apostle level works but could not give it to others.

It must be convenient to arrive at doctrine by fiat, declaring whatever you want as doctrine. I Corinthians 12 says that the Spirit distributes gifts as He wills. I Corinthians 14:13 shows that one can pray to operate in one of the I Corinthians 12 gifts.

The gospels record the apostles trying to correct people for doing miracles without their authorization. Jesus corrected the disciples for doing this.

Acts shows us that one of the ways spiritual gifts were imparted was through the laying on of hands of the apostles. We also see tongues being given through outpourings of the Spirit which happened according to His will apparently with no laying on of hands of the apostles. Saul of Tarsus was able to perform miracles though there is no record of apostles laying hands on him, and to assume such would be to go against his own comments that they that seemed to be somewhat (certain apostles) added nothing to him. A disciple and prophets and teachers laid hands on him.

Paul's writings show that a spiritual gift can also be delivered through prophecy accompanied by the laying on of hands of the elders. And the Old Testament had already well established the facts that the Spirit can empower individuals to prophesy or do miracles apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles.

Your hermeneutical method, again, is akin to taking one verse where Jesus ate fish, and arguing that no one else in the world has ever been provided with fish to eat. You try to squeeze ideas out of verses that are not in there, and ignore scriptures that contradict your point of view.

 

[Mii]

I really think this fellow is intentionally stirring up dissention. He has not stated what his purpose with the thread is. He wants people to "prove" that they have something by raising the dead (which is borderline blasphemous) and every time he claims he will do something he uses a rather unsatisfactory answer that he cannot do it for "this reason or that reason" or "you just wouldn't get it". So then why have the thread at all? Consider "if ye are the Son of God turn these stones into bread."

It is clearly stirring up some strife for no reason. Let him go the way of other posters who just parrot what some other theologian has said in endless blocks of repostings. This is what people are reading that are guests and there were 3,500 guests yesterday at one point...it makes sense to not bump it and this will be my last post on this thread (Lord willing).


If you had legitimately seen someone raised from the dead you would not convince them as they didn't personally witness it and therefore it is hearsay. I imagine a scenario where they happened upon Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus and while yes a man named Lazarus died they didn't see him die and it is possible that whoever was in the tomb was merely an actor and it was all a charade as he happened across the event. Does anyone not see how the self same disbelief can easily apply across the board to faith in its entirety?

It somehow reminds me of the scripture about "entering the sheep pen another way".




These people will get what they want if they happen to survive long enough to observe the Lord working within the two witnesses. Much like Balaam, I fear, it will be to no effect. I pray not, and that there are some that "proof" decides things for them (like Thomas) but even such a person as that must be on guard against many things.




Essentially this person believes that they are correct and that everyone else is incorrect. Are they testing the Lord? From my experience yes. I am not the Lord and it could be that he has leniency for each person depending on factors that cannot be quantified but that some consensus is reasonable within the body.

 

[Dave-L]

It must be convenient to arrive at doctrine by fiat, declaring whatever you want as doctrine. I Corinthians 12 says that the Spirit distributes gifts as He wills. I Corinthians 14:13 shows that one can pray to operate in one of the I Corinthians 12 gifts.

The gospels record the apostles trying to correct people for doing miracles without their authorization. Jesus corrected the disciples for doing this.

Acts shows us that one of the ways spiritual gifts were imparted was through the laying on of hands of the apostles. We also see tongues being given through outpourings of the Spirit which happened according to His will apparently with no laying on of hands of the apostles. Saul of Tarsus was able to perform miracles though there is no record of apostles laying hands on him, and to assume such would be to go against his own comments that they that seemed to be somewhat (certain apostles) added nothing to him. A disciple and prophets and teachers laid hands on him.

Paul's writings show that a spiritual gift can also be delivered through prophecy accompanied by the laying on of hands of the elders. And the Old Testament had already well established the facts that the Spirit can empower individuals to prophesy or do miracles apart from the laying on of hands of the apostles.

Your hermeneutical method, again, is akin to taking one verse where Jesus ate fish, and arguing that no one else in the world has ever been provided with fish to eat. You try to squeeze ideas out of verses that are not in there, and ignore scriptures that contradict your point of view.

Start raising the dead and I'll begin thinking your charismatic claims are true.

 

[Dave-L]

That wj

What has this verse to do with the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Bye the way this was a promisse for the nation of Israel.

Jesus promised the 12 only.

 

[Dave-L]

Satan is clearly not yet bound (Rev 20:2), according to the Apostle Peter (1Pe 5:8-9):

Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.

Are you adding to Revelation saying the binding consists of more than John says?

 

[Dave-L]

So when Jesus said we believers will cast out demons and speak in tongues Jesus was wrong?

That is basic Christianity and has nothing to do with the Baptism.

 

[Dave-L]

Your problem is your starting place.
We have 2 completely different starting places.
I been there done that.

You have the impossible task of making us believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit abandoned the church.

You are making a straw man out of this.

 

[Dave-L]

Nobody moves from unsaved to saved while in a coma.

How about babies in the womb? Imbeciles?

 

[Dave-L]

Bingo.

You still think the brain is completely bypassed?

John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb.

 

[Dave-L]

I proved it fallacious, so it is invalid and you should no longer be using it as an argument.

Raise the dead and prove you are right.

 

[notuptome]

Your problem is your starting place.
We have 2 completely different starting places.
I been there done that.

You have the impossible task of making us believe Jesus and the Holy Spirit abandoned the church.

Perhaps your Jesus but the Jesus of the bible is here to save souls not do wonders to delight the flesh of sinful men.

So when Jesus said we believers will cast out demons and speak in tongues Jesus was wrong?

Back to finding scripture that is not part of the original documents. Believers are to be witnesses of Jesus power, power to save men from their sins not to speak in tongues or to cast out demons.

Your focus is wrong. You are looking for proof because you cannot believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Start raising the dead and I'll begin thinking your charismatic claims are true.

Raise the dead and prove you are right.

Doctrine based on experience? f you do not believe what the Bible teaches on this subject would you believe if God raised someone from the dead?

 

[Dave-L]

Doctrine based on experience? f you do not believe what the Bible teaches on this subject would you believe if God raised someone from the dead?

I'm just saying speaking in tongues was related to raising the dead as far as its origins.

 

[1ofthem]

No signs needed to have faith in God or for salvation by faith in Jesus, but won't signs follow them that believe? Well wasn't that what Jesus said and didn't Paul make a point to write about them and instruct and explain to the Church about the gifts of the Spirit?

 

[1ofthem]

I'm just saying speaking in tongues was related to raising the dead as far as its origins.

Have you read Corinthians where Paul explains it to the Church?

 

[notuptome]

No signs needed to have faith in God or for salvation by faith in Jesus, but won't signs follow them that believe? Well wasn't that what Jesus said and didn't Paul make a point to write about them and instruct and explain to the Church about the gifts of the Spirit?

No Jesus did not say that.

There are gifts that continue and gifts that have ceased. That is what Paul taught and what history has amply demonstrated.

Do we walk by sight or by faith?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

How about babies in the womb? Imbeciles?

Same answer. Do you have any other stupid questions?

 

[Dino246]

Raise the dead and prove you are right.

I don't have to prove anything to you; as I said, your assertion is invalid. Go and learn what that means.

 

[1ofthem]

No Jesus did not say that.

There are gifts that continue and gifts that have ceased. That is what Paul taught and what history has amply demonstrated.

Do we walk by sight or by faith?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Can you show me scripture where Paul taught that any of the gifts have ceased?

 

[EternalFire]

Are you adding to Revelation saying the binding consists of more than John says?

I am quoting his good buddy, Peter, who, at the time he wrote his letter, knows that Satan cannot prowl around like a roaring lion if he is bound in a bottomless pit.