Paran, you emphatically state that Paul is the final authority and that Paul's Doctrine is the core of the NT. Why do you disregard Jesus, the God of the universe, in the New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as being the final authority. After all, who is God, Jesus or Paul?????????????
WHY?
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As I have said more than once, I am not the sort of person that reads a verse of scripture and then forms a doctrine out of it. That is a no no for me although it is obvious that many people do judging by the comments here.
Like a lot of subjects I comment on, I spend years studying the subject matter and often change my mind when new light is shed on it. I was an avid supporter of communion, you know a sip of wine and a piece of bread and then I found out the truth so I ditched it. So I am not a rusted on theologian who only see what I want to see.
Like a lot of subjects I comment on, I spend years studying the subject matter and often change my mind when new light is shed on it. I was an avid supporter of communion, you know a sip of wine and a piece of bread and then I found out the truth so I ditched it. So I am not a rusted on theologian who only see what I want to see.
Pilgrimshope, you ask a good and valid question, "At what age can a child understand sin repentance remission of sins ? "
I have no specific answer for that. But let's take an example for a child who is not of the age of reason. In that case, the child has no sin, except 'Original Sin'. The child who is not of the age of reason is incapable of sinning as sinning is a willful act against God.
So, why should a child, under the age of reason, need to repent? But this child can still receieve the 'Gift of the Holy Spirit' through baptism and forgiveness for Adam's inherited original sin. As I pointed out, there instances in the New Testament where entire households were baptized. This would have included the children.
And And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
And we know that the Lord loves and calls the little children unto Himself. But Jesus called for the children, saying, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t stop them, because the kingdom of God belongs to people who are like these children. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
So, I have no doubt that God is generous with conferring/bestowing His Holy Spirit on the children.
So, Pilgrimshope, do you feel it is not possible for God to confer the Holy Spirit on children under the age of reason?
Then consider the case of John the Baptist, ".... for he will be great in the sight of [the] Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink.* He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb." (Luke 1:15)
I have no specific answer for that. But let's take an example for a child who is not of the age of reason. In that case, the child has no sin, except 'Original Sin'. The child who is not of the age of reason is incapable of sinning as sinning is a willful act against God.
So, why should a child, under the age of reason, need to repent? But this child can still receieve the 'Gift of the Holy Spirit' through baptism and forgiveness for Adam's inherited original sin. As I pointed out, there instances in the New Testament where entire households were baptized. This would have included the children.
And And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
And we know that the Lord loves and calls the little children unto Himself. But Jesus called for the children, saying, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t stop them, because the kingdom of God belongs to people who are like these children. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
So, I have no doubt that God is generous with conferring/bestowing His Holy Spirit on the children.
So, Pilgrimshope, do you feel it is not possible for God to confer the Holy Spirit on children under the age of reason?
Then consider the case of John the Baptist, ".... for he will be great in the sight of [the] Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink.* He will be filled with the holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb." (Luke 1:15)
While some Christian denominations/sects do deny infant baptism. In fact, most Christian denominations/sects do offer infant baptism.
Most Christian denominations accept the doctrine of infant baptism. Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Church of the Nazarene, Reformed Church in America, Episcopalians, United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Continental Reformed, and others, baptize infants.
well all I did was ask the question at what age a child can understand sin and repentance in order to get baptized lol I was just curious what your opinion on that was
because repentence and confession of sin is part of baptism was the point can a person be saved without believing Jesus died for thier sins ? Can they believe that if they don’t hear the gospel? Can they understand any of it if they don’t know about sin and death ? Repentance from sin ? Righteousness ?
children arent damned already but th res a point when sin becomes known and held to account I was asking when th at is ? Doesn’t it sort of come with th e maturity of a person in life as they grow up ?
eventually realizing they we done some things wrong to and need forgivness for those things to be saved
My only point in asking you was baotism seems to be to me just me I’m not saying thisnis the answer for anyone but , it seems to me baotism is a personal choice we make because we believe the gospel about Jesus dying as propitiation for our sins
And I’m not sure a small child can actually grasp sin and repentance , the law of Moses , remission of sins or any of those actual concepts was my point so I don’t know if we can actually get baptized until we hear and believe the gospel understanding at least the basic pints that were sinners and need atonement in order to be saved from death baptism is about remission of sins so it stands to reason we should be aware of our sins before we can get baptized for repentance and remission
Or if someone else decides I get baptized how is this going to be of faith ? I have nothing against someone baptizing their kid personally I just don’t know if that’s the doctrine of baptism in scripture that’s a personal choice made of faith because we hear about it and believe like this
“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:37-41 KJV
Im not sure children would know what any of that meant or could be held accountable as if they did and I’m not sure children need baptism until they are accountable for sin and can understand the confront of atonement but that’s just my own personal opinion I think the effectiveness of baptism is about stepping in faith hearing and believing like those people
Baptism has a lot of meaning but it’s all faith you have to hear about it and believe kids o don’t think until a certain. Point can underrrsnd it to believe it was just wondering when that is
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
Romans 6:3-4 KJV
It’s all so much about repentance and remission of sins
“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Colossians 2:11-
I’m not sure but it seems like baptism is for sinners who know they need repentance and remission of sins
because repentence and confession of sin is part of baptism was the point can a person be saved without believing Jesus died for thier sins ? Can they believe that if they don’t hear the gospel? Can they understand any of it if they don’t know about sin and death ? Repentance from sin ? Righteousness ?
children arent damned already but th res a point when sin becomes known and held to account I was asking when th at is ? Doesn’t it sort of come with th e maturity of a person in life as they grow up ?
eventually realizing they we done some things wrong to and need forgivness for those things to be saved
My only point in asking you was baotism seems to be to me just me I’m not saying thisnis the answer for anyone but , it seems to me baotism is a personal choice we make because we believe the gospel about Jesus dying as propitiation for our sins
And I’m not sure a small child can actually grasp sin and repentance , the law of Moses , remission of sins or any of those actual concepts was my point so I don’t know if we can actually get baptized until we hear and believe the gospel understanding at least the basic pints that were sinners and need atonement in order to be saved from death baptism is about remission of sins so it stands to reason we should be aware of our sins before we can get baptized for repentance and remission
Or if someone else decides I get baptized how is this going to be of faith ? I have nothing against someone baptizing their kid personally I just don’t know if that’s the doctrine of baptism in scripture that’s a personal choice made of faith because we hear about it and believe like this
“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Acts 2:37-41 KJV
Im not sure children would know what any of that meant or could be held accountable as if they did and I’m not sure children need baptism until they are accountable for sin and can understand the confront of atonement but that’s just my own personal opinion I think the effectiveness of baptism is about stepping in faith hearing and believing like those people
Baptism has a lot of meaning but it’s all faith you have to hear about it and believe kids o don’t think until a certain. Point can underrrsnd it to believe it was just wondering when that is
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
Romans 6:3-4 KJV
It’s all so much about repentance and remission of sins
“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Colossians 2:11-
I’m not sure but it seems like baptism is for sinners who know they need repentance and remission of sins
When Jesus ascended back to Glory (Heaven) He called Paul personally, saying "He is a chosen vessel"..... for the "time of the Gentiles".
We are in the "time of the Gentiles". Paul is the "apostle TO the Gentiles".
Paul wrote most of the NT epistles and all the doctrine for the "body of Christ". (The Church)
Jesus is our Savior, and Lord.
Paul is the apostle who gave us. "The Gospel of the Grace of God", which came from Jesus to Paul.
Paul is the only apostle who told you this.
"be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ".
Pauline Theology is THE Theology for the Born again.
We are in the "time of the Gentiles". Paul is the "apostle TO the Gentiles".
Paul wrote most of the NT epistles and all the doctrine for the "body of Christ". (The Church)
Jesus is our Savior, and Lord.
Paul is the apostle who gave us. "The Gospel of the Grace of God", which came from Jesus to Paul.
Paul is the only apostle who told you this.
"be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ".
Pauline Theology is THE Theology for the Born again.
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Matthew 28:19 is not a stand alone scripture contradicting other scriptures relevant to water baptism. Jesus' commanded water baptism "IN THE NAME OF..." The singular name referenced is revealed by the acts of the apostles. The Apostles understood Jesus' command in Matthew 28:19 to mean they were to baptize in His name as confirmed throughout scripture.
Paul explained that in obedience to baptism a person is buried with Jesus wherein the body of sin is destroyed. Paul learned this truth from a man sent directly from God. (Acts 9:10-17, 22:16)
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized INTO Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized INTO Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
FOR IF we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
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Actually there is not a problem with Matthew 28:19. It is not a stand alone scripture contradicting other scriptures relevant to water baptism. Jesus' commanded water baptism "IN THE NAME OF..." The singular name is JESUS as revealed by the acts of the apostles. The Apostles understood Jesus' command and obeyed Him.
In Jesus dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" Col 2:9-13
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" Col 2:9-13