's' no such thing as human freewill

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Evmur

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#21
This is not logical. If I am drowning I can't save myself even if I wanted to. If someone throws me a life preserver I still need to grab it, that is my free will. I completely reject your premise.

We were incapable of saving ourselves, not because we didn't have freewill but because we were sinful. God demanded a sinless offering, no one was worthy. Jesus paid the price for us, however we have the freewill to receive his offering or to reject it.
The life preserver and rope to a drowning man is a good illustration but like all illustrations it does not quite fit what really happens.

What if nobody throws you a life preserver?

The reality is we are already dead while we walk, as dead as Lazarus was. Our spirits are dead to God, totally unresponsive to Him.

Saul of Tarsus stood in the crowd and heard the wisdom with which Stephen spoke and was unable to withstand his wisdom, he probably witnessed first hand the miracles which he did but far from being saved he rampaged all the more against the church. Spiritually Saul was dead.

People can argue that Saul had a choice if they like, just like you can argue the drowning man has a choice, you can argue that the prodigal son starving among the pigs had a choice. The fact is when God gets you in the corner you don't have a choice, if you want to get out of the corner you better do as you are told.

But there were those in the crowds that followed Jesus who did not get a choice. God closed their eyes lest they should see and stopped up their ears lest they should hear and He hardened their hearts lest they should turn to Christ and be forgiven.

Being dead to God spiritually we can't hear Him or respond to Him unless He works miraculously in our lives and in our hearts . God saves us when we are still in our sins, He causes our spirits which were dead to come ALIVE.

The act of repentance and profession of faith follows the work God has already done by His own will, by His grace and mercy.
 

Hungry

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Nov 26, 2012
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#22
Adam and Eve had choice YOU do not.

You were born in sin and shapen in iniquity, you have a sin nature. Sin holds you bondage and you will sin and all the supposed freewill cannot stop you from sinning. Because of sin you must die. All the supposed freewill in the world cannot stop you from dying.

Thank God for His mercy in sending His Son Jesus to save you from this tyranny and this He has done.

And you did not choose Him He chose you.
Of course I have a choice. Based on your beliefs your relevant scripture consists of about ten pages total. What is the point of evangelism if there is no choice? We are not merely puppets in the theatre of life. YOU have an option. We all do. We aren’t born with a “sin nature”. We are born into a fallen society that teaches us “right from wrong”. This is the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”. The “fruit” of knowing right from wrong is guilt. Guilt interrupts the intuitive connection between us and the Creator. This is demonstrated with dogs. Naturally they behave instinctively in the wild. The laws of nature are written on their hearts. When you teach them right from wrong they no longer behave instinctively. If they crap on the floor in the house, or eat the garbage, they hide, like Adam and Eve. Forgiveness eliminates the guilt to return communication from God enabling us to fulfill our purpose to serve Him. The sacrifice system was in place to initiate the placebo effect to extract guilt. Without the connection to God, man only has his hormones, emotions and cognitive bias to lead him (aka. Sinful nature). He chose us as a group. Possibly few He calls who are in positions to steer the course of history, but most of us are just in support roles. Those who He calls, He glorifies, like Moses, and David and Peter and Paul. Those who are just seekers who see there is more than carnality, seek and find Him, like the Bible clearly states.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#23
The life preserver and rope to a drowning man is a good illustration but like all illustrations it does not quite fit what really happens.

What if nobody throws you a life preserver?

The reality is we are already dead while we walk, as dead as Lazarus was. Our spirits are dead to God, totally unresponsive to Him.

Saul of Tarsus stood in the crowd and heard the wisdom with which Stephen spoke and was unable to withstand his wisdom, he probably witnessed first hand the miracles which he did but far from being saved he rampaged all the more against the church. Spiritually Saul was dead.

People can argue that Saul had a choice if they like, just like you can argue the drowning man has a choice, you can argue that the prodigal son starving among the pigs had a choice. The fact is when God gets you in the corner you don't have a choice, if you want to get out of the corner you better do as you are told.

But there were those in the crowds that followed Jesus who did not get a choice. God closed their eyes lest they should see and stopped up their ears lest they should hear and He hardened their hearts lest they should turn to Christ and be forgiven.

Being dead to God spiritually we can't hear Him or respond to Him unless He works miraculously in our lives and in our hearts . God saves us when we are still in our sins, He causes our spirits which were dead to come ALIVE.

The act of repentance and profession of faith follows the work God has already done by His own will, by His grace and mercy.
"You had better do as you are told" -- that is free will.

"The act of Repentance" is free will

"profession of faith" is free will

Otherwise we are simply puppets and God's judgement is not righteous.
 

Evmur

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#24
"You had better do as you are told" -- that is free will.

"The act of Repentance" is free will

"profession of faith" is free will

Otherwise we are simply puppets and God's judgement is not righteous.
If I've got you in a Boston crab demanding your submission I am not giving you freewill.

What you fail to understand is that repentance is submission, we are repenting of freewill living, we are now submitting to God's will for our lives, we acknowledge Him to be Lord.

Not that there ever was human freewill but only the delusion of it.

We have our will but it is in bondage, it is not free. What part of bondage or slavery do you not understand? so when we follow our "own freewill" it leads us further and further along the path toward ever increasing bondage. Cigarette smoking begins with one little puff. This is the nature of sin.

This is what we repent of. Do we repent of our own freewill? I think FIRST and foremost God sets us free to enable us to choose. We are totally unable to make that choice unless God first works in our hearts to enable us to.

Why is this important? why make a song and dance about it?

Take the matter of the ALTAR CALL. This practice is based soley upon the assumption that man has freewill and can choose for himself to be saved. So the preacher preaches what may be a perfectly good gospel message and then says "hands up if you agree, come forward, decide for Christ ... be saved" So the candidate steps forward being at least temporarily affected by the message, he doesn't want to go to hell.

No work of grace has been done in his heart but he steps forward, he prays the proscribed prayer and is counselled that now he is saved

Still no work of grace has been done in his heart but he is told to believe, believe, believe ... he is not saved. At best he will fall away as soon as the meeting is over, at worst he is brought into the church in an unconverted state to create all kind of problems and disruption in the life of the church.

This is not to say that nobody gets saved at the altar call ... but not all do. That is just one aspect of the freewill delusion.
 

Evmur

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#25
Of course I have a choice. Based on your beliefs your relevant scripture consists of about ten pages total. What is the point of evangelism if there is no choice? We are not merely puppets in the theatre of life. YOU have an option. We all do. We aren’t born with a “sin nature”. We are born into a fallen society that teaches us “right from wrong”. This is the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”. The “fruit” of knowing right from wrong is guilt. Guilt interrupts the intuitive connection between us and the Creator. This is demonstrated with dogs. Naturally they behave instinctively in the wild. The laws of nature are written on their hearts. When you teach them right from wrong they no longer behave instinctively. If they crap on the floor in the house, or eat the garbage, they hide, like Adam and Eve. Forgiveness eliminates the guilt to return communication from God enabling us to fulfill our purpose to serve Him. The sacrifice system was in place to initiate the placebo effect to extract guilt. Without the connection to God, man only has his hormones, emotions and cognitive bias to lead him (aka. Sinful nature). He chose us as a group. Possibly few He calls who are in positions to steer the course of history, but most of us are just in support roles. Those who He calls, He glorifies, like Moses, and David and Peter and Paul. Those who are just seekers who see there is more than carnality, seek and find Him, like the Bible clearly states.
Man is born in sin and shapen in iniquity ... you may not like it but it is so. That's bible
Man is also in bondage to sin which simply means he can't stop himself from sinning. That's bible.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#26
If I've got you in a Boston crab demanding your submission I am not giving you freewill.

What you fail to understand is that repentance is submission, we are repenting of freewill living, we are now submitting to God's will for our lives, we acknowledge Him to be Lord.

Not that there ever was human freewill but only the delusion of it.

We have our will but it is in bondage, it is not free. What part of bondage or slavery do you not understand? so when we follow our "own freewill" it leads us further and further along the path toward ever increasing bondage. Cigarette smoking begins with one little puff. This is the nature of sin.

This is what we repent of. Do we repent of our own freewill? I think FIRST and foremost God sets us free to enable us to choose. We are totally unable to make that choice unless God first works in our hearts to enable us to.

Why is this important? why make a song and dance about it?

Take the matter of the ALTAR CALL. This practice is based soley upon the assumption that man has freewill and can choose for himself to be saved. So the preacher preaches what may be a perfectly good gospel message and then says "hands up if you agree, come forward, decide for Christ ... be saved" So the candidate steps forward being at least temporarily affected by the message, he doesn't want to go to hell.

No work of grace has been done in his heart but he steps forward, he prays the proscribed prayer and is counselled that now he is saved

Still no work of grace has been done in his heart but he is told to believe, believe, believe ... he is not saved. At best he will fall away as soon as the meeting is over, at worst he is brought into the church in an unconverted state to create all kind of problems and disruption in the life of the church.

This is not to say that nobody gets saved at the altar call ... but not all do. That is just one aspect of the freewill delusion.
None of this explains Eve choosing the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Your obsession with trying to deny that man had a free will to sin has the impression of trying to deny man's responsibility and accountability for sins.

It also appears to be an attempt to undermine God's righteous judgements.

Is that your point? Man is not responsible for sinning because he doesn't have free will and therefore God's judgements for sin are unrighteous?
 

Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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#27
Of course Humans have free will..

I have the will to post this post to state my belief that I have the free will to post it.. :cool:

See how simple it is to establish human beings have free will..
 

Hungry

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Nov 26, 2012
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#28
Man is born in sin and shapen in iniquity ... you may not like it but it is so. That's bible
Man is also in bondage to sin which simply means he can't stop himself from sinning. That's bible.
Choose this day who to serve. That is a free will choice. That is Bible
 

Evmur

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#29
Choose this day who to serve. That is a free will choice. That is Bible
The Egyptians did not get that choice, nor did Big Chief Sitting Bull, there were some in the crowds who followed Jesus whom God closed their eyes and stopped up their ears and hardened their eyes lest they should turn and be forgiven.

But choice is not freewill, for we do not set the options nor do we set the consequences either of obedience or disobedience. And the scripture you quote says whom you will serve.
 

Evmur

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#30
Of course Humans have free will..

I have the will to post this post to state my belief that I have the free will to post it.. :cool:

See how simple it is to establish human beings have free will..
Did you create yourself? did God at any time come and consult you in the matter?

Did you choose where you would be born? whether to be a male or female? how tall you would be? whether you will be rich or poor, can you by your "own freewill" choose to have black hair or white?

You could decide to do another post and [God forbid] suffer a stroke.

People do not have freewill concerning their natural birth but they can be quite indignant if you suggest they don't have freewill concerning the much more precious second birth.

Jesus said "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" this is a doctrine to make you dance for joy for we make many mistakes but God does not make mistakes. The fact that He chose to save us gives us confidence to believe that "that which He has begun in us He will carry through to completion against that day"

Don't you know that the idea that we could ever lose this salvation is a direct derivative of the freewill doctrine?
 

Evmur

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#31
None of this explains Eve choosing the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Your obsession with trying to deny that man had a free will to sin has the impression of trying to deny man's responsibility and accountability for sins.

It also appears to be an attempt to undermine God's righteous judgements.

Is that your point? Man is not responsible for sinning because he doesn't have free will and therefore God's judgements for sin are unrighteous?
Eve had choice you do not. You are a sinner and you are bound to sin. all the freewill in the world cannot stop you from sinning. Because of sin you must die physically, if Jesus doesn't come first you will certainly die. And now you spend the vast portion of your time and strength in the effort to stay alive.

You must stay fed, you must stay clothed and you must stay sheltered, free from sickness and disease. All these things consume your life on earth. You have no choice, no freewill can keep you alive forever.

Man is bondage says Paul to sin and death. What part of bondage do you understand as freewill.?

Jesus has come to save us, I trust you are saved, He has set you FREE. It cost Him His life .... don't insult Him by claiming you were already free.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#32
Eve had choice you do not. You are a sinner and you are bound to sin. all the freewill in the world cannot stop you from sinning. Because of sin you must die physically, if Jesus doesn't come first you will certainly die. And now you spend the vast portion of your time and strength in the effort to stay alive.

You must stay fed, you must stay clothed and you must stay sheltered, free from sickness and disease. All these things consume your life on earth. You have no choice, no freewill can keep you alive forever.

Man is bondage says Paul to sin and death. What part of bondage do you understand as freewill.

Jesus has come to save us, I trust you are saved, He has set you FREE. It cost Him His life .... don't insult Him by claiming you were already free.
I was born into a world that I didn't create. The world I am living in is due to the choices others have made. But to say that Eve had free will but her choice took away my free will ascribes way too much to her. To me the best analogy is going down a river in a white water raft, she was upstream and made choices, perhaps she turned down a far more dangerous river, I can't change that, but I still have free will from where I am at.
 

Evmur

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#33
None of this explains Eve choosing the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Your obsession with trying to deny that man had a free will to sin has the impression of trying to deny man's responsibility and accountability for sins.

It also appears to be an attempt to undermine God's righteous judgements.

Is that your point? Man is not responsible for sinning because he doesn't have free will and therefore God's judgements for sin are unrighteous?
Freewill blames God for man's sin. If you give your kids freewill and they smash up the neighbourhood YOU are to blame.

Adam was not given freewill he was under the law "of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it touch ... lest you die"

He was FREE as long as he stayed within the boundary of that law.

When he sinned his freedom was gone and ours [for we were in him] went with it.
 

Evmur

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#34
I was born into a world that I didn't create. The world I am living in is due to the choices others have made. But to say that Eve had free will but her choice took away my free will ascribes way too much to her. To me the best analogy is going down a river in a white water raft, she was upstream and made choices, perhaps she turned down a far more dangerous river, I can't change that, but I still have free will from where I am at.
She is your mother, you were in Adam's loins, when they fell we all fell. You don't like that but that is what the bible teaches.
 

Hungry

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Nov 26, 2012
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#35
The Egyptians did not get that choice, nor did Big Chief Sitting Bull, there were some in the crowds who followed Jesus whom God closed their eyes and stopped up their ears and hardened their eyes lest they should turn and be forgiven.

But choice is not freewill, for we do not set the options nor do we set the consequences either of obedience or disobedience. And the scripture you quote says whom you will serve.
So you just eliminate the first part of the sentence that involves choice. But I guess it wasn’t you who was trying to be deceptive, it was Satan pulling the strings. This conversation has already been scripted. We are merely playing out our mindless roles, until Christ comes and separates the preordained goats and sheep. Clearly Christ must have died in vain because God must have caused people to sin. Or…you are just trolling to see how far you can take this illogical position. Are you a flat Earther?
 

ZNP

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#36
She is your mother, you were in Adam's loins, when they fell we all fell. You don't like that but that is what the bible teaches.
Read the book of Luke, she was also the mother of Jesus who was made in all things like us only without sin. The Lord chose to go to the cross, yes it was God's will, but He had to embrace that will.
 

Evmur

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#37
Read the book of Luke, she was also the mother of Jesus who was made in all things like us only without sin. The Lord chose to go to the cross, yes it was God's will, but He had to embrace that will.
in all things like us only without sin

So every other human being does have sin, is in bondage to sin. Being in bondage is the opposite of having freewill.

Not being in bondage to sin our Lord was also not bound to die as we are.

This means Jesus was FREE, He has come for to set us FREE and He has set us free.

Do not insult Him by claiming that you were already free.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#38
in all things like us only without sin

So every other human being does have sin, is in bondage to sin. Being in bondage is the opposite of having freewill.

Not being in bondage to sin our Lord was also not bound to die as we are.

This means Jesus was FREE, He has come for to set us FREE and He has set us free.

Do not insult Him by claiming that you were already free.
Everyone who sins is a slave to sin, yet the Lord told the woman caught in adultery to "go and leave your life of sin". It was a choice she could make once she was forgiven of her sins. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Claiming that you don't have freewill is another way of claiming you don't have sin. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, you have to make that choice, are you going to claim it wasn't your fault because you don't have freewill or are you going to confess your sins? It is up to you. If you claim that you have not sinned because you don't have freewill you make Him out to be a liar and His word is not in you, there is no light, no insight, only some vain imagination. Sin is lawlessness (1Jn 3:4). We have the law but choose not to obey, it is the application of our freewill to deny God, deny His word, deny that we have any responsibility for our actions, deny that we are to blame for the crimes we have committed. This is what the devil does. "the one who is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning". The devil does not simply refuse to obey the commands of God he also justifies himself with ridiculous claims like "we don't have freewill". All wrongdoing is sin. After desire has conceived it gives birth to sin. For example, if you show favoritism you sin. The word is clear "wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double minded".

Since you agree that we are all sinners what is sin? James said "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them". We have the Bible, we know the good we ought to do, we have Jesus as an example for us, we know the good we ought to do, choosing not to do it is sin. Claiming that you "don't have freewill" is just a lie. It is simply an example of what Jude says about the "defiant words that ungodly sinners have spoken against God".

This is the teaching of Balaam who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin.

"Come out from her my people so that you will not share in her sins, so you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes."
 

Evmur

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#39
Everyone who sins is a slave to sin, yet the Lord told the woman caught in adultery to "go and leave your life of sin". It was a choice she could make once she was forgiven of her sins. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Claiming that you don't have freewill is another way of claiming you don't have sin. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, you have to make that choice, are you going to claim it wasn't your fault because you don't have freewill or are you going to confess your sins? It is up to you. If you claim that you have not sinned because you don't have freewill you make Him out to be a liar and His word is not in you, there is no light, no insight, only some vain imagination. Sin is lawlessness (1Jn 3:4). We have the law but choose not to obey, it is the application of our freewill to deny God, deny His word, deny that we have any responsibility for our actions, deny that we are to blame for the crimes we have committed. This is what the devil does. "the one who is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning". The devil does not simply refuse to obey the commands of God he also justifies himself with ridiculous claims like "we don't have freewill". All wrongdoing is sin. After desire has conceived it gives birth to sin. For example, if you show favoritism you sin. The word is clear "wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double minded".

Since you agree that we are all sinners what is sin? James said "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them". We have the Bible, we know the good we ought to do, we have Jesus as an example for us, we know the good we ought to do, choosing not to do it is sin. Claiming that you "don't have freewill" is just a lie. It is simply an example of what Jude says about the "defiant words that ungodly sinners have spoken against God".

This is the teaching of Balaam who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin.

"Come out from her my people so that you will not share in her sins, so you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes."
I will always be prepared to respond to a reasonably put argument, I may not respond to name calling or ill tempered posts.

This is my blog, what is represented here is my deeply held conviction held for over 40 years, moreover my view is entirely orthodox and was the theology believed for the first 100 years of the reformation. It is generally known as the doctrine of FREE SOVEREIGN GRACE. The doctrine of human freewill was developed later as a response to the errors of the Calvin interpretation of predestination and election.

I think your understanding is back to front, everybody who sins is a slave to sin. They are not slaves because they sin, they sin because they are slaves. We are not able to break those bonds, not with all the supposed freewill in the world.

Jesus can set us FREE, that is what He came to do, He set that woman caught in adultery free His word was "go in peace and sin no more" That peace is a real tangible thing, it was a miraculous peace and IS a miraculous peace which we can walk in and in walking we will have victory. She was entirely passive, thrown down before Jesus she was entirely at His mercy. She could not plead innocence, she was guilty and the law clear. The story does not record that she made any choice or any decision whatever. The whole matter was resolved by the free sovereign grace of the Master. That is what I believe in.

I am not arguing that we don't have human will I am arguing that it is not free. We are born slaves to sin, in bondage. When the devil comes acalling we will respond to him. That human will which everybody calls freewill is not free but will in every single instance lead us into greater and greater bondage.

Unless Jesus comes and sets us FREE. And since you are saved He has done this for you. He did what you could not do.

You say because you chose, it was your will. I say God subdued your will and overruled it, you say you made a decision, I say God had already done the miraculous work in your heart and merely got your amen.

We are born again "not by the will of man, nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God" why then do people claim it was their will?

I'm only scratching the surface, this matter runs through the church like a mighty river with many tributaries, doctrines like the opposition to eternal security, whether we do works in order to be saved and now the new one which claims that God does not know everything which is spreading like fire. They all come from this parent doctrine of human freewill.
 

ZNP

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Sep 14, 2020
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#40
I will always be prepared to respond to a reasonably put argument, I may not respond to name calling or ill tempered posts.
You might want to reread your first post in which you accuse everyone who posits that man has free will of insulting God and being an idolater.

This is my blog, what is represented here is my deeply held conviction held for over 40 years, moreover my view is entirely orthodox and was the theology believed for the first 100 years of the reformation. It is generally known as the doctrine of FREE SOVEREIGN GRACE. The doctrine of human freewill was developed later as a response to the errors of the Calvin interpretation of predestination and election.
So the response to the questions based on the Bible in my post is that this is an orthodox teaching? This is like Fauci saying that anyone who has questions about his actions is questioning science.

I think your understanding is back to front, everybody who sins is a slave to sin. They are not slaves because they sin, they sin because they are slaves. We are not able to break those bonds, not with all the supposed freewill in the world.
We agree on this point, however, it doesn't address Eve sinning, nor does it address Paul's reference to this saying that he is concerned that we, like Eve, would be tempted to sin. Nor does it address anyone who has had those bonds broken by receiving Jesus sinning after that, nor does it address how anyone could receive Jesus in the first place seeing they were in bonds.

Jesus can set us FREE, that is what He came to do, He set that woman caught in adultery free His word was "go in peace and sin no more" That peace is a real tangible thing, it was a miraculous peace and IS a miraculous peace which we can walk in and in walking we will have victory. She was entirely passive, thrown down before Jesus she was entirely at His mercy. She could not plead innocence, she was guilty and the law clear. The story does not record that she made any choice or any decision whatever. The whole matter was resolved by the free sovereign grace of the Master. That is what I believe in.
The NT is filled with charges to "believe and be baptized" or to "repent" or to "confess". To infer that we are simply puppets on a string controlled by God is to infer what is not written into dozens of verses.

I am not arguing that we don't have human will I am arguing that it is not free. We are born slaves to sin, in bondage. When the devil comes acalling we will respond to him. That human will which everybody calls freewill is not free but will in every single instance lead us into greater and greater bondage.
My question to that which you have steadfastly refused to answer is does that mean we are not responsible for the sin? How is it that the Bible says obedience is better than sacrifice if we are not free to obey?

Unless Jesus comes and sets us FREE. And since you are saved He has done this for you. He did what you could not do.
Oh, so unbelievers are not responsible for sins, only believers?

You say because you chose, it was your will. I say God subdued your will and overruled it, you say you made a decision, I say God had already done the miraculous work in your heart and merely got your amen.
You are putting words in my mouth, I am saying I received, I believed, I repented, I confessed, I chose to be baptized, I chose to obey. Yes, I said Amen and I object to the use of "merely" because it is God's will that all men would be saved and many refuse to say Amen.

We are born again "not by the will of man, nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God" why then do people claim it was their will?
Who claims that this is their will? You are making things up. Show me a post where anyone claimed this.

I'm only scratching the surface, this matter runs through the church like a mighty river with many tributaries, doctrines like the opposition to eternal security, whether we do works in order to be saved and now the new one which claims that God does not know everything which is spreading like fire. They all come from this parent doctrine of human freewill.
The fact that there are heresies does not strengthen your position. Simply explain the questions: are sinners responsible for sinning and is God righteous for judging sinners?