There is no such thing as Sola Scriptura
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C
I just joined this site a few days ago. I checked out a few other things, but I've been strung out on this thread for most of the time. I'm having a hard time keeping up due to my caretaking responsibilities, but I see Purgatory is what's up where I left off last night. It seems almost pointless to keep debating sola scriptura because believers of both perspectives seem committed. Catholics assume I'm Protestant now since I left their church, but that's not the case. I'm not protesting the doctrine of Rome. I'm just ignoring it. I checked out a few Protestant churches, but I've decided not to follow any church tradition due to some conflicts I see with a concordant literal translation of scripture that I study. If anybody thinks they need church doctrine and ritual to make them happy, then I say do your thing brothers and sisters, but my own personal preference is to just study the word of God daily and get my fellowship whenever and wherever I can without a church filter for doctrine. I don't condemn any church folks, and I think they should all feel the same way about folks who think the word of God is enough for them. My family is Catholic, and I used to worry about them going to hell until I found out what hell really is and that God's ultimate plan is that all are reconciled through Christ and God will be all in all. I believe anybody who believes Christ died for our sins and was roused from the dead is a Christian. I think it's crazy to add a bunch of church tradition to that, but some folks seem to like that. That being said...
Church doctrine about Hell, Purgatory, and Limbo is not in a correct translation of scripture, and the church of Rome has even changed its mind about Limbo since I left it years ago.
Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries | Reuters
Scripture provides consolation about our loved ones who have died.
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
The dead are not alive anywhere else including Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Only Christ has been immortalized so far.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
To believe that the dead are alive is to believe the serpent's lie from the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
So even mortals judged before the great white throne and condemned to the second death-the lake of fire will be dead while only the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet who are spirit beings not subject to death are tormented for the eons of the eons.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
But even those condemned to the second death-the lake of fire will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons. They will just not be blessed with eonian life, mistranslated eternal life, that believers experience.
This is made possible because Christ's sacrifice reconciles all creation.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
I realize folks on both sides of this sola scriptura debate are going to object to what I've said here because it conflicts with church doctrine.
There's nothing in scripture about Purgatory, and Hell, the Old English word for the Greek "hades," is just the unseen state of dead souls. Hell is not Gehenna in which the bodies of criminals condemned to death will be burned in the next eon despite the fact that Catholic and Protestant bibles have mistranslated Gehenna as Hell twelve times to support church doctrine that it is supposed to figuratively represent torture forever in fire for unbelievers.
"'And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,' says Yahweh. 'And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh.'" (Isaiah 66:23,24)
So now you know my belief about Purgatory and Hell. You can believe what you want, but don't try to convert me.
God bless all my brothers and sisters in Christ, those who are church people, and those who think the word of God is sufficient for them.
Church doctrine about Hell, Purgatory, and Limbo is not in a correct translation of scripture, and the church of Rome has even changed its mind about Limbo since I left it years ago.
Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries | Reuters
Scripture provides consolation about our loved ones who have died.
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
The dead are not alive anywhere else including Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. Only Christ has been immortalized so far.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
To believe that the dead are alive is to believe the serpent's lie from the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
So even mortals judged before the great white throne and condemned to the second death-the lake of fire will be dead while only the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet who are spirit beings not subject to death are tormented for the eons of the eons.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10)
But even those condemned to the second death-the lake of fire will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons. They will just not be blessed with eonian life, mistranslated eternal life, that believers experience.
This is made possible because Christ's sacrifice reconciles all creation.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
I realize folks on both sides of this sola scriptura debate are going to object to what I've said here because it conflicts with church doctrine.
There's nothing in scripture about Purgatory, and Hell, the Old English word for the Greek "hades," is just the unseen state of dead souls. Hell is not Gehenna in which the bodies of criminals condemned to death will be burned in the next eon despite the fact that Catholic and Protestant bibles have mistranslated Gehenna as Hell twelve times to support church doctrine that it is supposed to figuratively represent torture forever in fire for unbelievers.
"'And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,' says Yahweh. 'And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh.'" (Isaiah 66:23,24)
So now you know my belief about Purgatory and Hell. You can believe what you want, but don't try to convert me.
God bless all my brothers and sisters in Christ, those who are church people, and those who think the word of God is sufficient for them.
C
"You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition. Hypocrites! Ideally Isaiah prophesies concerning you, saying, This people with their lips is honoring Me, Yet their heart is away at a distance from Me. Yet in vain are they revering Me, Teaching for teachings the directions of men." (Matthew 15:6-9)
C
Thanks for the welcome, Abiding. This site is a blessing, and I don't let it get to me when somebody comes at me with some craziness. I get a chuckle when I get hit with some self-righteous indignation. It was really crazy on Google+. I was fighting off atheists with one hand and fellow believers with the other. I just try to come back with some scripture like Christ did in the wilderness with Satan. There's nothing like the sword of the spirit.
C
I'm not interested in "the full knowledge and comprehension of the Church." I'm not interested in the church at all. So you're wasting your time coming at me with church doctrine. I'm only interested in the word of God. You guys keep trying to justify your church tradition by saying that's where scripture came from, but you're invalidating the word of God with you tradition because it does not conform to the word of God. The word "church" is not even in scripture. It is a mistranslation, thanks to your church, of the Greek "ekklesia" for "ecclesia".
N
Someone, and I don't remember who, was berating the Bible Study room last night on mic because no one in the room would agree that the angel Gabriel named Jesus and some odd other angel doctorine. He came to the conclusion that none of us in the room knew the Gospel.
He was kicked and I think banned.
People can explain their church tradition. It's when there is an expectation that ALL Christians should believe in and practice their tradition that I have a problem.
The Word of God is the final authority.
He was kicked and I think banned.
People can explain their church tradition. It's when there is an expectation that ALL Christians should believe in and practice their tradition that I have a problem.
The Word of God is the final authority.
R
well actually their arguments -weren't- any good...half of the time they were being blatantly dishonest...like when one of them posted a bible verse with the wording -altered-
and also both of them insisted on being extremely unpleasant towards just about everyone else...
really they were just embarassing their church both morally and intellectually...
and also both of them insisted on being extremely unpleasant towards just about everyone else...
really they were just embarassing their church both morally and intellectually...
C
So when folks see somebody kneeling in front of a statue with their hands together like their praying, they're bigots if they think that guy is praying to the statue? If you rationalize that situation by saying the guy is really just asking the saint that statue represents to help him out and put in a good word with God for him, the guy looking like he's praying but not really praying is still messing up because the statue represents a dead person who is supposed to be alive in heaven even though scripture says the dead are just plain dead. The real point is why do you need to use a middle man especially a dead one? You can talk directly to God yourself, and some folks aren't shy about calling that praying. Your church is lying to you about dead folks being alive. Pray to God, bro, not dead folks with or without a statue while you're looking like you're praying but not really praying.
C
You're right, sis. Transubstantiation is just corrupt church doctrine, and that's coming from a guy who was taught that stuff when I was a kid. I thought I was lucky because I only had to go to catechism on Saturdays, but now I realize how much public school messed up my mind too teaching me evolution.
C
Well, I guess what we have in common is that we both used to go to a Roman church, but I'm not going to defend its doctrine like you are because I think it's false doctrine. That's not because I'm Protestant because I'm not. It's because I know what the church is about having personally experienced it, and I know it does not conform to the word of God because I'm familiar with that too. My family is Catholic too, but that doesn't stop me from believing the truth. That's why I'm not Catholic anymore.
