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1 Corinthians 13:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Paul is speaking to the church as a whole. The only way the entire body can reach that "manhood", that complete maturity, Is when we're all together in Heaven. That's when we put away "childish things". The gifts today will seem as childish things compared to immortality in Heaven. We've had complete scripture for centuries, but not all are at that "man" stage, are we?
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Paul is speaking to the church as a whole. The only way the entire body can reach that "manhood", that complete maturity, Is when we're all together in Heaven. That's when we put away "childish things". The gifts today will seem as childish things compared to immortality in Heaven. We've had complete scripture for centuries, but not all are at that "man" stage, are we?
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Scripture wasn't complete in the 1st century though. That's where alot of the difference comes from I think.
Tongues, prophecy etc was used because they didn't have the Holy Bible like we do. Divine power came over those with these gifts to help spread the Word. To me verse 11 is referring to these gifts as tools for am immature church. Kind of like visual aides.
Yet when the bible transcripts were officially put together and distributed throughout the world the gifts began to cease.
Though I do understand what you are saying about the perfect being when we are with Jesus, but what I am having trouble with is "knowledge". Of course we don't need tongues and prophecy when he comes, but our knowledge is limited on Earth. When we get to Heaven won't our knowledge increase? Yet you say these 3 things will decrease when Jesus comes.
This is just how I am interpreting the passages. If I am in error then by all means correct me. I am not here to argue. I have done enough of that on this forum. I want to learn. Please correct my error if you can.
Tongues, prophecy etc was used because they didn't have the Holy Bible like we do. Divine power came over those with these gifts to help spread the Word. To me verse 11 is referring to these gifts as tools for am immature church. Kind of like visual aides.
Yet when the bible transcripts were officially put together and distributed throughout the world the gifts began to cease.
Though I do understand what you are saying about the perfect being when we are with Jesus, but what I am having trouble with is "knowledge". Of course we don't need tongues and prophecy when he comes, but our knowledge is limited on Earth. When we get to Heaven won't our knowledge increase? Yet you say these 3 things will decrease when Jesus comes.
This is just how I am interpreting the passages. If I am in error then by all means correct me. I am not here to argue. I have done enough of that on this forum. I want to learn. Please correct my error if you can.
The knowledge we have now is incomplete. It is given to us. When we are changed, we will have the knowledge of God automatically, for we will receive our full inheritance as the Sons of God. Right now we have the Spirit as a down payment; then we will be paid in full.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Earnest - Greek Word: ἀρραβώνTransliteration: arrabōn
Phonetic Pronunciation:
ar-hrab-ohn'
Root: of Hebrew origin , <H6162>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:475,80
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Earnest (Noun)
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
earnest 3
[Total Count: 3]
of Hebrew origin [<H6162> (`arabown)]; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest :- earnest.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Earnest - Greek Word: ἀρραβώνTransliteration: arrabōn
Phonetic Pronunciation:
Root: of Hebrew origin , <H6162>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:475,80
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Earnest (Noun)
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
earnest 3
[Total Count: 3]
of Hebrew origin [<H6162> (`arabown)]; a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest :- earnest.
1 Corinthians 12:1-11 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [SUP]10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [SUP]11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [SUP]10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: [SUP]11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
G
I think, stilledwater, that elizzy is referencing what sarahsarah said about what she would call the inspired writers of Scripture's spiritual gift ,which she said 'gift of knowledge.' 
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LOL, squirrel, 'updated version,' OK, night all, God bless you for your work for Him, your time for Him, your understanding that ONLY comes from Him
Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord, Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord. And He shall lift you up, higher and higher , and, He shall lift you up
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LOL, squirrel, 'updated version,' OK, night all, God bless you for your work for Him, your time for Him, your understanding that ONLY comes from Him
Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord, Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord. And He shall lift you up, higher and higher , and, He shall lift you up
It is often forgotten that words can have MULTIPLE meanings. Knowledge is one of them. Paul was given words of knowledge IE "I show you a mystery...." ,James had it too when he said "if any of you are sick...."
Would you agree you have to take the passage within the context and also within the whole council of God? If so then there is a bit of a problem when you have words in the Old Testament like knowledge and wisdom. In the Old Testament you have verses like this
If it is B through the hearing and preaching of the word then they are NOT one and the same.
Go through Proverbs and see how many times both wisdom and knowledge are used and see how many times it is implied about discernment. Those things are in the Old Testament also. And it can only be of two things either they had the gifts of the Holy Spirit or they learned them. And they are not one and the same.
Would you agree you have to take the passage within the context and also within the whole council of God? If so then there is a bit of a problem when you have words in the Old Testament like knowledge and wisdom. In the Old Testament you have verses like this
Psalm 119
Do good to your servant
according to your word, Lord.
Do good to your servant
according to your word, Lord.
66
Teach me knowledge and good judgment,
for I trust your commands.
for I trust your commands.
67
Before I was afflicted I went astray,
but now I obey your word.
Proverbs 1
1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
but now I obey your word.
Proverbs 1
1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
2 for gaining wisdom and instruction;
for understanding words of insight;
3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,[a]
knowledge and discretion to the young—
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance—
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.[b]
for understanding words of insight;
3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
doing what is right and just and fair;
4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,[a]
knowledge and discretion to the young—
5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance—
6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.[b]
7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[c] despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 2
2 My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
7 He holds success in store for the upright,
he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,
8 for he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.
So if they are using those same words in the Old Testament it can only mean one of two things when both those words are used in the Old and New Testaments. A. The Old Testament believers had the gifts of the Holy Spirit or B. They learned knowledge,wisdom and discernment by the hearing and preaching of the word. but fools[c] despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 2
2 My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
2 turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding—
3 indeed, if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord
and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
7 He holds success in store for the upright,
he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless,
8 for he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.
If it is B through the hearing and preaching of the word then they are NOT one and the same.
Go through Proverbs and see how many times both wisdom and knowledge are used and see how many times it is implied about discernment. Those things are in the Old Testament also. And it can only be of two things either they had the gifts of the Holy Spirit or they learned them. And they are not one and the same.
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Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding
2 Chronicles 1:11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
God bless
2 Chronicles 1:11 And God said to Solomon, Because this was in thine heart, and thou hast not asked riches, wealth, or honour, nor the life of thine enemies, neither yet hast asked long life; but hast asked wisdom and knowledge for thyself, that thou mayest judge my people, over whom I have made thee king
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
God bless
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The ceasing of tongues = 1st century A.D. for the cessationists . Continuantionists believe God's never stopped up tongues, healings, etc., as I believe, stilledwater.
So, the technicality of 'degree and timing' of tongues ceasing is not in the right context . Both cessasionists and continuationists believe tongues are around in the tribulation time period, I think , have this right, the start of the time after God's raptured His church from having to partake in these turbulent, horrific times to come Again, this is my pre-trib view.
So, the technicality of 'degree and timing' of tongues ceasing is not in the right context . Both cessasionists and continuationists believe tongues are around in the tribulation time period, I think , have this right, the start of the time after God's raptured His church from having to partake in these turbulent, horrific times to come
Again, this is my pre-trib view.
now we have the OTHER gap thing in here.
not enough we dragged Pentecost into 2013
now we're adding the other gap where the Plan B church (who apparently isn't Israel)
disappears and God does......what exactly?
cough.
come on green.
the gifts ceased when the final WORDS and instructions from the LORD were delivered.
COMPLETE.
oh, yeah, groovy, you, man, you. LOL .
Somehow, though, as stevestephen points out, there's a real message here getting lost in translastion
LOL . Somehow, though, as stevestephen points out, there's a real message here getting lost in translastion
is glossolalia helping anyone understand anything more clearly?
people who practice it not only don't understand each other, they don't know what they themselves are saying.
and this is edifying for UNBELIEVERS to whom languages were a sign HOW?
this is what it all comes down to.
every one of the gifts involved ongoing and real time revelation.
now that we have scripture, is there still some other authority equal to it today (men)?
if there is, our Bibles are not complete (perfect; teleios)
and we need to know who these authoritative individuals are
and what God is saying today.
who are they?
do we know yet?
Miracles in the Book of Acts
BY JASON JACKSON
When we think about miracles in the New Testament, we often consider the miracles of Christ in the Gospel accounts. There are, however, many miracles recorded in the book of Acts. A survey of these miraculous works is worthy of our reflection.
Remember, Jesus Christ revealed to his disciples that they would have the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, after the Lord returned to heaven (John 14:26). Their teaching was to be inerrant and sufficient, and they would have the divine corroboration of supernatural works. Thereby, hearers of the apostolic message could have confidence in what they heard; they relied upon the apostolic preaching as being from God. The miracles provided objective, indisputable testimony concerning the gospel message (cf. Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:4).
Let us note the miracles that are recorded in the book of Acts.
Luke refers to the visible appearance of Jesus after his resurrection (1:3). The inspired historian records the miraculous ascension of Christ into heaven (1:9). We read, in Acts 2, of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the twelve apostles, accompanied by the miraculous wind, fire, and speaking in tongues (i.e., speaking in languages that were unknown by the apostles; cf. 2:6).
Many miracles were performed by the apostles (2:43). Peter healed the lame man at the Temple (3:7-11). God answered Peter in a miraculous earthquake (4:31). Ananias and Sapphira were slain by the Lord (5:5-10). Signs and wonders continued to be done by the apostles (5:12). Peter healed many from various cities (5:12-16). The prison doors were opened by an angel (5:19). Stephen wrought great wonders and signs (6:8). In Samaria, Philip did great miracles and signs (8:6,7,13).
The Lord appeared to Saul, but Saul is unsaved until he responds to the preaching of the gospel by Ananias (9:3-9). Ananias healed Saul’s blindness (9:17-18). Peter healed Aeneas (9:32-35). In Joppa, Peter raised Dorcus from the dead (9:39-42).
Cornelius saw an angel. He and his family spoke in tongues, but he was saved by responding to the preaching of the gospel by Peter (10:4,46; cf. v. 48; 11:14). Peter saw the vision on the roof and spoke with the Lord (10:9-22).
A prison gate was miraculously opened (12:10). Paul blinded Elymus (13:11-12). Paul performed miracles in Iconium (14:3,4). At Lystra, Paul healed a crippled man (14:8-18). Paul healed a woman possessed by an evil spirit (16:18). The miraculous earthquake unloosed all the chains and doors in the Philippian prison (16:26). In Ephesus, twelve men spoke in tongues, and prophesied (19:6). Paul performed other miracles in Ephesus (19:11,12). In Troas, Paul raised Eutychus from the dead (20:8-12). Paul was not affected by the viper at Melita (28:3-6). He also healed those on the island who were diseased (28:8-9).
As we can see, if one were to “demythologize” the book of Acts, as those of a liberal bent are wont to do, much would be missing concerning the amazing growth and development of the early church. In fact, we would have a difficult time explaining how so many Greeks, Romans, and “barbarians” (i.e., non-Greeks), obeyed the gospel. Is it rational to think that Paul is going to walk onto some island in the Mediterranean and convert many people simply because he is convincing, or friendly —or was there some other reason? To the contrary, they observed indisputable deeds that confirmed the message of the apostle. In case after case, many believed the message that was confirmed by the miracles. This is one reason for the amazing success that the gospel enjoyed in the first century.
The confirmation that goes along with our preaching today is the completed revelation of God (cf. 1 Cor. 13:8-10). Now, we appeal to the written record of these events (John 20:30-31), and we are privileged to possess the completed, final revelation of God’s will.
Christian Courier
........
may i ask who disagrees with the above, and why?
BY JASON JACKSON
When we think about miracles in the New Testament, we often consider the miracles of Christ in the Gospel accounts. There are, however, many miracles recorded in the book of Acts. A survey of these miraculous works is worthy of our reflection.
Remember, Jesus Christ revealed to his disciples that they would have the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, after the Lord returned to heaven (John 14:26). Their teaching was to be inerrant and sufficient, and they would have the divine corroboration of supernatural works. Thereby, hearers of the apostolic message could have confidence in what they heard; they relied upon the apostolic preaching as being from God. The miracles provided objective, indisputable testimony concerning the gospel message (cf. Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:4).
Let us note the miracles that are recorded in the book of Acts.
Luke refers to the visible appearance of Jesus after his resurrection (1:3). The inspired historian records the miraculous ascension of Christ into heaven (1:9). We read, in Acts 2, of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the twelve apostles, accompanied by the miraculous wind, fire, and speaking in tongues (i.e., speaking in languages that were unknown by the apostles; cf. 2:6).
Many miracles were performed by the apostles (2:43). Peter healed the lame man at the Temple (3:7-11). God answered Peter in a miraculous earthquake (4:31). Ananias and Sapphira were slain by the Lord (5:5-10). Signs and wonders continued to be done by the apostles (5:12). Peter healed many from various cities (5:12-16). The prison doors were opened by an angel (5:19). Stephen wrought great wonders and signs (6:8). In Samaria, Philip did great miracles and signs (8:6,7,13).
The Lord appeared to Saul, but Saul is unsaved until he responds to the preaching of the gospel by Ananias (9:3-9). Ananias healed Saul’s blindness (9:17-18). Peter healed Aeneas (9:32-35). In Joppa, Peter raised Dorcus from the dead (9:39-42).
Cornelius saw an angel. He and his family spoke in tongues, but he was saved by responding to the preaching of the gospel by Peter (10:4,46; cf. v. 48; 11:14). Peter saw the vision on the roof and spoke with the Lord (10:9-22).
A prison gate was miraculously opened (12:10). Paul blinded Elymus (13:11-12). Paul performed miracles in Iconium (14:3,4). At Lystra, Paul healed a crippled man (14:8-18). Paul healed a woman possessed by an evil spirit (16:18). The miraculous earthquake unloosed all the chains and doors in the Philippian prison (16:26). In Ephesus, twelve men spoke in tongues, and prophesied (19:6). Paul performed other miracles in Ephesus (19:11,12). In Troas, Paul raised Eutychus from the dead (20:8-12). Paul was not affected by the viper at Melita (28:3-6). He also healed those on the island who were diseased (28:8-9).
As we can see, if one were to “demythologize” the book of Acts, as those of a liberal bent are wont to do, much would be missing concerning the amazing growth and development of the early church. In fact, we would have a difficult time explaining how so many Greeks, Romans, and “barbarians” (i.e., non-Greeks), obeyed the gospel. Is it rational to think that Paul is going to walk onto some island in the Mediterranean and convert many people simply because he is convincing, or friendly —or was there some other reason? To the contrary, they observed indisputable deeds that confirmed the message of the apostle. In case after case, many believed the message that was confirmed by the miracles. This is one reason for the amazing success that the gospel enjoyed in the first century.
The confirmation that goes along with our preaching today is the completed revelation of God (cf. 1 Cor. 13:8-10). Now, we appeal to the written record of these events (John 20:30-31), and we are privileged to possess the completed, final revelation of God’s will.
Christian Courier
........
may i ask who disagrees with the above, and why?
The nouns "prophecy" and "knowledge" (vs. 2, 8) are feminine in the Greek. But in verses 9 and 10 we have verbs, not nouns, thus requiring neuter modifiers. In verse 9 the verbs "know" and "prophesy" are both modified by the adverbial expression ek merous ("in part"). But in verse 10 those verbs and their modifiers are brought together and replaced by the single substantive expression to ek merous ("that which is in part"). Whatever is partial in verse 9 is "that" which is partial in verse 10. And since to teleion ("the perfect") is the counterpart to to ek rmerous ("that which is in part"), it is absolutely clear that the "perfect" also refers to those same verbs. Therefore, the word "perfect" describes the completion of inspired preaching and points to the consequent cessation of the spiritual gifts which enabled and confirmed that preaching.
CESSATION OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS: Exposition of: 1 Cor 13:8-13
why would this be the ONLY place Paul would refer to Jesus Second Coming or our eternal state in this way.
it's obvious it's not what he's talking about.
CESSATION OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS: Exposition of: 1 Cor 13:8-13
why would this be the ONLY place Paul would refer to Jesus Second Coming or our eternal state in this way.
it's obvious it's not what he's talking about.
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