Will all be saved?

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T

TD18

Guest
#1
#1
I just had a question and I was wondering if I could get some polite, well thought out answers.
I recently read Rob Bell's book called LOVE WINS. And it had some very insightful points but it
also said some things that seem to be contrary to what the Bible teaches, even from an academic
standpoint. Although he does not call himself a universalist, many of the things he said leaned
towards that viewpoint (which basically states that ALL people, Christian and non Christian, will be
saved. I know that one of the Bible's biggest things is restoration- that all will be restored to Jesus in
time. So I was wondering basically...will all be saved in the end? Is there a possibility that that is what the Bible preaches? Just a question.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#2
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
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#2
So are you asking, ''did Jesus death save all, even those who never believe in Him?''
 
T

TD18

Guest
#3
#3
Well at least...I think universalism basically means that you believe that God will restore all to him in the end. Even the people who didnt believe in him on Earth. Once they see him and realize everything then they will come to him and everyone will be restored. I dont believe in this. I am just questioning if its a possibility.

Heres one example of a Universalist argument that I found:
In Revelation John furthermore declares, that "GOD SHALL WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS FROM THEIR EYES; and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, NEITHER SORROW, NOR CRYING,; NEITHER SHALL THERE BE ANY MOR PAIN; for the former things are passed away". (Rev. 21:4) Thus, we see the doctrine of eternal weeping, eternal sighing, eternal sorrow, eternal pain, is false. False as the Bible is true.

AND also this Scripture
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have ALL men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"

I know that there are arguments against those as well. That is why I am curious

 
T

TD18

Guest
#4
#4
I guess my question is: is there a possibility that ALL people will go to Heaven and be saved in the end?
 
T

TD18

Guest
#5
#5
But then again with the Timothy quote the word in Hebrew is thelos which means God wills/desires that all men be saved
 
E

enoch1nine

Guest
#6
#6
The "earth" is cursed.
The "curse" is "thorns".
To preach eternal torture, is to crown Jesus with a curse.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Time to get that blasphemous crown off my king and lift Him up from this cursed earth!

Eternal torture comes from mistranslations and making graven images of God's symbolic language, or "word".
But more importantly, it comes from hatred and fear.

He has already saved everyone that was ever made, and the only thing left to do is clear up His name, which is "Salvation"

"And ye shall know that I am Salvation, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith Salvation."

English translations have us calling him "Lord" or... "Baal"

Hold on tight to this, the whole world wants you to believe in a torture artist, and will torture you into confessing it.

WE are "Satan". Love does win.
 
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D

danschance

Guest
#7
#7
enoch1nine said:
The "earth" is cursed.
The "curse" is "thorns".
To preach eternal torture, is to crown Jesus with a curse.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Time to get that blasphemous crown off my king and lift Him up from this cursed earth!

Eternal torture comes from mistranslations and making graven images of God's symbolic language, or "word".
But more importantly, it comes from hatred and fear.

He has already saved everyone that was ever made, and the only thing left to do is clear up His name, which is "Salvation"

"And ye shall know that I am Salvation, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith Salvation."

English translations have us calling him "Lord" or... "Baal"

Hold on tight to this, the whole world wants you to believe in a torture artist, and will torture you into confessing it.

WE are "Satan". Love does win.
Click to expand...

I think you are on to something but also a bit off track. Man was cursed with thorns and Jesus took our place on the cross. So thru Jesus the curse or curses placed on Adam are now broken. Very interesting!
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#8
#8
Rob Bell and those like him teach a veiled universalism.
It looks Christian, because it involves Jesus and all coming to him.

Here is how the veiled universalism goes in a nutshell.
It makes use of two key passages.

Romans 10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved
Click to expand...
.

Philippians 2
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,[SUP]10 [/SUP]so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,[SUP]11 [/SUP]and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Click to expand...
Do you see the sleight of hand they can do?

Since one is saved by confessing Jesus, and since all will eventually confess he's Lord, then it follows that all will be saved. Right?

WRONG!

It doesn't get labeled as universalism by some, because it does involve Jesus only.

But ultimately it is universalism because all come to Jesus, regardless of being saved and regardless of choices made while alive.
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

Banned
#9
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#9
Scripture declares that many will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the Second Death. No, not all will be saved. Many will perish in the lake of fire and be as dead men. It is not a place of eternal torment, but a place of eternal nothingness. The lake of fire is a place where God is not. Without God there is no existence, there is no joy, there is no life, there is no beauty. It is other from God, separate. In essence, we do not know what the lake of fire is like, because we exist in a world where God is, but think upon who God is and how He created existence, and then look at a place where neither of those things are. Not all will be saved, this is not God's condemnation, but man's condemnation and rejection of God. God in His eternal justice and mercy accepts our decisions, and accepts man's rejection, and therefore separates man from Himself.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#10
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
113
#10
TD18 said:
Well at least...I think universalism basically means that you believe that God will restore all to him in the end. Even the people who didnt believe in him on Earth. Once they see him and realize everything then they will come to him and everyone will be restored. I dont believe in this. I am just questioning if its a possibility.

Heres one example of a Universalist argument that I found:
In Revelation John furthermore declares, that "GOD SHALL WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS FROM THEIR EYES; and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, NEITHER SORROW, NOR CRYING,; NEITHER SHALL THERE BE ANY MOR PAIN; for the former things are passed away". (Rev. 21:4) Thus, we see the doctrine of eternal weeping, eternal sighing, eternal sorrow, eternal pain, is false. False as the Bible is true.

AND also this Scripture
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have ALL men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"

I know that there are arguments against those as well. That is why I am curious
Click to expand...
Chapter breaks are man made and not inspired. Just before Rev. 21:4 you find as part of the previous or 'the rest of the story'...
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:11-15)

The burden of proof would be on Bell et.al. to show those in hell are there only temporary and without suffering.
 
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T

TD18

Guest
#11
#11
Everyone has given me quite a lot to think about. Thank you so much for your replies!!!!
I think many theological schools such as Universalism often omit and add but on some points they are right.
And just another question for brain storming: I am a potential theology student and want to be a teacher
by the way- so that is why I love this conversation as well as for my personal life.

Sometimes it is said that a Christian with the wrong theology is not a Christian. Because people on this thread
are disagreeing does that mean that some are Christian and some are not? I honestly that that is a man made
thing but I was just wondering your opinions on it.

Thank you!

And enoch19- just curious- is your point that evil does not exist other than humans? That humans came up with the
concept of the fire and brimstone hell? That hell is not Biblical? Just wondering- can you possibly give me some
scripture for that? I know that that is a huge debate nowadays as well
 
T

TD18

Guest
#12
#12
And ThomastColin- When you quoted the Second Death, I was wondering- if the passage in Revelation says "no more
death", is that possible?
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

Banned
#13
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
0
#13
The Second Death is an important mentioning of what the lake of fire is like. When God says there shall be no more death, He is speaking of us, that our perfected bodies no longer follow the Law of Entropy, because our perfected bodies are of the pure essence of God and not the fallen essence that surrounds us.

Also, TD18, I believe that evil is the privation of Good. Therefore, evil is not an existing thing, but the absence of an existing thing. So we need not get tangled in, "Did God create evil?" or "Don't we all have to be saved so that we may return to God?"
 
N

NiceneCreed

Guest
#14
#14
TD18 said:
I just had a question and I was wondering if I could get some polite, well thought out answers.
I recently read Rob Bell's book called LOVE WINS. And it had some very insightful points but it
also said some things that seem to be contrary to what the Bible teaches, even from an academic
standpoint. Although he does not call himself a universalist, many of the things he said leaned
towards that viewpoint (which basically states that ALL people, Christian and non Christian, will be
saved. I know that one of the Bible's biggest things is restoration- that all will be restored to Jesus in
time. So I was wondering basically...will all be saved in the end? Is there a possibility that that is what the Bible preaches? Just a question.
Click to expand...

Please don't mistake my response to your question humorously; but, NO! The Bible teaches us that there will be a place of eternal torment for those who rebelled against God in their earthly lives. If you would like, I can show you specific verses which address this topic, and they will be of much more help to you than my response.

Grace and Peace!
 
T

TD18

Guest
#15
#15
ThomistColin- Okay thank you for the description of the Second Death and the explanation.
But in the Bible the different references to demons then...do you believe that those arent real?
And if they arent real then are angels?
 
T

TD18

Guest
#16
#16
NiceneCreed- Thank you! Some scriptures would be lovely to look at :)

ThomistColin- I am talking about physical evil not philosophical- Do you believe physical demonic forces exist I mean?
 
ThomistColin

ThomistColin

Banned
#17
Nov 30, 2012
2,396
26
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#17
TD18: Angels do exist. They are beings of soul or spirit, without tangible bodies as we have. The angels that rebelled against God and claimed Satan as their king, gave up the goodness of their will. However, they still have good things in them. Satan for example is wise, intelligent, and powerful. All of those things are good. However, there is no charity (or selflessness) in Satan. Without charity, all of his virtues turn to vices, because they are empty. He lies, which is less than the truth, and he hates, which is the absence of love. Demons are no more than angels who have no good morality left in them. Their existence and power is of the goodness of God, but they turn it towards their own selfish desires, leaving them empty.
 
J

James2v18

Banned
#18
Jul 10, 2013
54
0
0
#18
Amazing. All these quotes, but none from Jesus. Here it is. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.[SUP]14 [/SUP]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matt 7:13-14

Can't get more to the point than that.


 
D

djness

Guest
#19
#19
Luke 13:23
Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them,"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
 
T

TD18

Guest
#20
#20
That was very well put ThomistColin. Thank you! That makes a lot of sense. I never thought about it in that way. Is that the way that those who go to the Lake of Fire will be do you think? (assuming that universalism isnt true)- they will just lose all goodness because they didnt choose Jesus? So then they become inherently "immoral" like the demons?
 
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