Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?
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Now I am confused. Earlier you said we must do them, Now your saying just read them. which is it? no one here denies we should study them
You stated we must do those things. that that is how you have a relationship with God. I asked you if you thought that people who do not do them can't have a relationship with them. That your more holy (which was insinuated by your comment, that they must be done to relate with God.
I am not judging, just stating facts. Do you think that people who do not do them have less of a relationship with God (less holy?) or not?
I never stated this. I have alot of help. I have the body of Christ, I have the HS. I have the things God has and continues to do for me, i have the personal experience of iGod work in others lives. You think I need the OT ceremonies and religion feasts to see this?? Well evidently you do
God wants so much more for you!I said poor abraham because he did not have the things you claim are required to relate to God.. now which is it?? are you backtracking?
I am not ridiculing anything
You stated they must be done to relate. If this is true, abraham missed out, He did not have them.
Here is how Scripture defines YHVH’s law:
1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)
2. The Law defines sin (disobey).
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)
3. The Law is perfect.
(Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)
4. The Law is liberty/freedom.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)
5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)
6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)
7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)
8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)
9. The Law is Yeshua (Jesus), the Word made flesh.
(PERFECT+FREEDOM+WAY+TRUTH+LIFE+LIGHT= Law/Jesus).
(Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)
10. The Law is also for those who were once Gentiles (foreigner/alien) but now are grafted in to Israel.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)
11. The Law is YHVH’s instructions on how to love YHVH, how to love others, and how to not love yourself.
(Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)
1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke 11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)
2. The Law defines sin (disobey).
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)
3. The Law is perfect.
(Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)
4. The Law is liberty/freedom.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)
5. The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac 24:14)
6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)
7. The Law is life.
(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)
8. The Law is light.
(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1 John 1:7)
9. The Law is Yeshua (Jesus), the Word made flesh.
(PERFECT+FREEDOM+WAY+TRUTH+LIFE+LIGHT= Law/Jesus).
(Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)
10. The Law is also for those who were once Gentiles (foreigner/alien) but now are grafted in to Israel.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie: Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo 2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)
11. The Law is YHVH’s instructions on how to love YHVH, how to love others, and how to not love yourself.
(Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh 1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo 1:6)
Now I am confused. Earlier you said we must do them, Now your saying just read them. which is it? no one here denies we should study them
You stated we must do those things. that that is how you have a relationship with God. I asked you if you thought that people who do not do them can't have a relationship with them. That your more holy (which was insinuated by your comment, that they must be done to relate with God.
I am not judging, just stating facts. Do you think that people who do not do them have less of a relationship with God (less holy?) or not?
I never stated this. I have alot of help. I have the body of Christ, I have the HS. I have the things God has and continues to do for me, i have the personal experience of iGod work in others lives. You think I need the OT ceremonies and religion feasts to see this?? Well evidently you do
God wants so much more for you![/COLOR]I said poor abraham because he did not have the things you claim are required to relate to God.. now which is it?? are you backtracking?
I am not ridiculing anything
You stated they must be done to relate. If this is true, abraham missed out, He did not have them.
do we have an actual list of what these vital rituals are yet.
one would hope theyd be taught clearly if they are so crucial.
Discern this Hebrews 9:15-17 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
This tells me that all of the ministry of Jesus (before His death) the OT was still in effect, for the New was not enacted yet because He had not died yet. Make sense? Fulfill does not = cancel or negate. It means to take it to completion.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
This tells me that all of the ministry of Jesus (before His death) the OT was still in effect, for the New was not enacted yet because He had not died yet. Make sense? Fulfill does not = cancel or negate. It means to take it to completion.
A
God does the blessing and the judgements.....did you cut and paste this list, because a lot of the scriptures don't really support your statement.......
depends on WHICH law you are refering too:
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
JESUS is the WAY
6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32) [/quote]
God's WORD is the Truth. the WORD = JESUS
JESUS = eternal life
i would say that Jesus is the embodiment of God's Law and Word, but ok... so Law = Jesus
Jesus is for the gentiles okay.....
yep Jesus does give instructions on how to love God and others and YOURSELF as well.
wait you have a NOT in your statement, why wouldn't God want you to love you, His beloved child?
The Law = Jesus.
NOT tablets of stone but hearts circumcised and lead by the HOLY Spirit to produce fruits of righteousness that do not include false outward shows of religion but inward change and outward shows of love without the ceremony and pomp and pride.
depends on WHICH law you are refering too:
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
JESUS is the WAY
6. The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32) [/quote]
God's WORD is the Truth. the WORD = JESUS
JESUS = eternal life
i would say that Jesus is the embodiment of God's Law and Word, but ok... so Law = Jesus
Jesus is for the gentiles okay.....
yep Jesus does give instructions on how to love God and others and YOURSELF as well.
wait you have a NOT in your statement, why wouldn't God want you to love you, His beloved child?
The Law = Jesus.
NOT tablets of stone but hearts circumcised and lead by the HOLY Spirit to produce fruits of righteousness that do not include false outward shows of religion but inward change and outward shows of love without the ceremony and pomp and pride.
Well, I think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian church that would reject water baptism and the Lord's supper/Eucharist. These are rituals, at some level, in that they are practical, rehearsed, corporate activities by which we demonstrate our obedience to Christ, our communion with him and with each other, and our 'set-apart-ness' from the world. So obviously churches do not 'judge all rituals themselves as wrong'. It matters very much what rituals you are specifically referring to. So I'll ask again - can you give any specific examples that worry you? That makes it easier for us to both think through these issues.
As to your point about churches ignoring the physical in favour of the spiritual, I would say that's really a theological error, rather than one of praxis. It's the same problem the gnostics made - the physical is wrong, and the only thing that matters is the spiritual. That is a LIE. But it's important to work out what physical activity the church is called to. Is it simply ritualised worship? No, for what does the Lord say?:
Ritual worship means nothing if people's hearts are turned from God, and if justice is not upheld. This is why the Lord Jesus can say:
and the Lord's brother James could write:
So, while I would much rather live without ritual but uphold justice and repentance, I also acknowledge that to live with a complete disregard for the physical needs of others and the importance that living and acting in the world holds in our faith is just as much an error as the ritualistically complete but spiritually hollow practice of the Israelites in the time of Amos.
As to your point about churches ignoring the physical in favour of the spiritual, I would say that's really a theological error, rather than one of praxis. It's the same problem the gnostics made - the physical is wrong, and the only thing that matters is the spiritual. That is a LIE. But it's important to work out what physical activity the church is called to. Is it simply ritualised worship? No, for what does the Lord say?:
Ritual worship means nothing if people's hearts are turned from God, and if justice is not upheld. This is why the Lord Jesus can say:
and the Lord's brother James could write:
So, while I would much rather live without ritual but uphold justice and repentance, I also acknowledge that to live with a complete disregard for the physical needs of others and the importance that living and acting in the world holds in our faith is just as much an error as the ritualistically complete but spiritually hollow practice of the Israelites in the time of Amos.
God's WORD is the Truth. the WORD = JESUS
JESUS = eternal life
i would say that Jesus is the embodiment of God's Law and Word, but ok... so Law = Jesus
Jesus is for the gentiles okay.....
yep Jesus does give instructions on how to love God and others and YOURSELF as well.
wait you have a NOT in your statement, why wouldn't God want you to love you, His beloved child?
The Law = Jesus.
NOT tablets of stone but hearts circumcised and lead by the HOLY Spirit to produce fruits of righteousness that do not include false outward shows of religion but inward change and outward shows of love without the ceremony and pomp and pride.[/QUOTE]
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him.
1Jn 3:6 So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him.
1Jn 3:7 Children, don't let anyone deceive you — it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 The person who keeps on sinning is from the Adversary, because from the very beginning the Adversary has kept on sinning. It was for this very reason that the Son of God appeared, to destroy these doings of the Adversary.
1Jn 3:9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him. That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father.
1Jn 3:10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God's children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God. Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning: that we should love each other
1Jn 3:12 and not be like Kayin, who was from the Evil One and murdered his own brother. Why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil, and his brother's were righteous.
1Jn 3:13 Don't be amazed, brothers, if the world hates you.
1Jn 3:14 We, for our part, know that we have passed from death to life because we keep loving the brothers. The person who fails to keep on loving is still under the power of death.
JESUS = eternal life
i would say that Jesus is the embodiment of God's Law and Word, but ok... so Law = Jesus
Jesus is for the gentiles okay.....
yep Jesus does give instructions on how to love God and others and YOURSELF as well.
wait you have a NOT in your statement, why wouldn't God want you to love you, His beloved child?
The Law = Jesus.
NOT tablets of stone but hearts circumcised and lead by the HOLY Spirit to produce fruits of righteousness that do not include false outward shows of religion but inward change and outward shows of love without the ceremony and pomp and pride.[/QUOTE]
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah — indeed, sin is violation of Torah.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him.
1Jn 3:6 So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him.
1Jn 3:7 Children, don't let anyone deceive you — it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 The person who keeps on sinning is from the Adversary, because from the very beginning the Adversary has kept on sinning. It was for this very reason that the Son of God appeared, to destroy these doings of the Adversary.
1Jn 3:9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him. That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father.
1Jn 3:10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God's children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God. Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning: that we should love each other
1Jn 3:12 and not be like Kayin, who was from the Evil One and murdered his own brother. Why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil, and his brother's were righteous.
1Jn 3:13 Don't be amazed, brothers, if the world hates you.
1Jn 3:14 We, for our part, know that we have passed from death to life because we keep loving the brothers. The person who fails to keep on loving is still under the power of death.
A
okay..... stop sinning..............the rest of the book is a great read too........
1 John 3
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, [SUP]12 [/SUP]not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother[SUP][c][/SUP] abides in death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
The Outworking of Love
[SUP]16 [/SUP]By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
[SUP]18[/SUP]My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And by this we know[SUP][d][/SUP] that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us[SUP][e][/SUP] commandment.
1 John 3
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, [SUP]12 [/SUP]not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother[SUP][c][/SUP] abides in death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
The Outworking of Love
[SUP]16 [/SUP]By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
[SUP]18[/SUP]My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And by this we know[SUP][d][/SUP] that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us[SUP][e][/SUP] commandment.
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I am still waiting for ONE verse that says we have to obey the Law as prescribed in the Torah and then depend upon the grace of God in the same sentence in the Bible. We obey God BECAUSE he has saved us. We are not saved by obeying the law. And even obeying God is about the outward qualities which come from the inner changes God has made in our lives through the Holy Spirit.
There is no where in the New Testament it says to keep the rituals and rites of the Jewish people. There are many scriptures telling us to follow Jesus.
"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Matt. 16:24
" Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12
"Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 1:13
There is no where in the New Testament it says to keep the rituals and rites of the Jewish people. There are many scriptures telling us to follow Jesus.
"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Matt. 16:24
" Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12
"Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 1:13
Now I am confused. Earlier you said we must do them, Now your saying just read them. which is it? no one here denies we should study them
You stated we must do those things. that that is how you have a relationship with God. I asked you if you thought that people who do not do them can't have a relationship with them. That your more holy (which was insinuated by your comment, that they must be done to relate with God.
I am not judging, just stating facts. Do you think that people who do not do them have less of a relationship with God (less holy?) or not?
I never stated this. I have alot of help. I have the body of Christ, I have the HS. I have the things God has and continues to do for me, i have the personal experience of iGod work in others lives. You think I need the OT ceremonies and religion feasts to see this?? Well evidently you do
God wants so much more for you![/COLOR]I said poor abraham because he did not have the things you claim are required to relate to God.. now which is it?? are you backtracking?
I am not ridiculing anything
You stated they must be done to relate. If this is true, abraham missed out, He did not have them.
I think rituals are an excellent path to use in worship, I don't think, (I repeat and repeat and repeat) it is the only way. The church today accents the spiritual, with little physical doing to lead. We are physical. I think rituals could be a blessing. You insist on making what I think into a great case, with accusations about it that I don't state, and you will not consider it. I think that is short sighted. Now. Make a huge case against me over something as innocent as this!