Thoughts on "Jesus took our punishment"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

Exoaria

Guest
#1
I just wanted to discuss something.

The idea is that Jesus suffered our penalty for sins on the cross. Right?

We go to infinite hell for finite sin. This is just one person.

Jesus suffered hours (finite punishment) on the cross with God's punishment (In no way am I undermining what he did) for EVERYONE'S (infinitely deserving) sin.

How does this work?
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#2
Hell in infinite because our life is infinite, which is why finite sin has infinite consequences.

Jesus is God. God is infinite. Infinite sacrifice (even done in finite time) remits infinite punishment.
 
Jun 30, 2011
2,521
35
0
#3
This must be an arminian idea --- It's not the size of the sin, it's the size of the One we sin against - God is infinite and HOlY therefore one sin against Him deserves infinite punishment - Jesus is God - Infinite - he suffered our penalty temporarily for sin which is temporary

He satisfied the just wrath of God for all sin because of He is God who is Infinite, who suffered and died for the finite
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#4
I just wanted to discuss something.

The idea is that Jesus suffered our penalty for sins on the cross. Right?

We go to infinite hell for finite sin. This is just one person.

Jesus suffered hours (finite punishment) on the cross with God's punishment (In no way am I undermining what he did) for EVERYONE'S (infinitely deserving) sin.

How does this work?
It doesn't work. Penal Substitution which teaches that Jesus satisfied God's wrath by taking the punishment of those who would be saved is a 400 year old doctrine invented by the Protestant Reformers. It was an adaption of Bishop Anselm's 11th Century view of Satisfaction (which taught that the death of Christ satisfied divine justice thus upholding the justice of God when forgiving sin).

The Bible teaches that we are justified freely via the grace of God via the redemption that is found IN Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24). Redemption literally means "set free via the payment of a ransom." We are set free from the dominion of sin via the blood of Christ because it cleanses us of an evil conscience (Heb 10:22) and thus we are cleansed of all sin (1Joh 1:7) and works done in vain (Heb 9:14).

Jesus was set forth as a propitiation (propitiation means Mercy Seat) (Rom 3:25), an offering for sin (Heb 9:14), the mercy is found through faith in His blood (Rom 3:25), the blood is the means by which we approach God for cleansing (Heb 9:22, Heb 10:19). The propitiatory offering of Jesus declares the righteousness of God for the remission of sin (Rom 3:25) for He was offered without spot (Heb 9:14) whereby God passes over "sins that are past" (Rom 3:25). This is why in Hebrews 10:19-29 it teaches that "if we willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth" (Heb 10:26), having thus been "sanctified" (set apart unto holiness) (Heb 10:29) due to being cleansed of all sin (Heb 10:22, 1Joh 1:7), "that no sacrifice remains but only a fearful expectation of judgment" (Heb 10:26-27). In other words we are cleansed to remain clean, we are not cleansed in order that we may go and make ourselves filthy again in thinking we can use the blood of Christ over and over again as some kind of license to sin, such an attitude is to despise the grace of God (Heb 10:29, Rom 6:1-7).

Thus the death of Christ is something we must partake in (Rom 6:4-6) and in doing so we are set free from the service of sin (Rom 6:7). That is why Peter would write this...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

When we are buried into the baptism of the death of Christ whereby our old man is crucified and the body of sin is destroyed once and for all (Rom 6:6) we are then raised up to newness of life (Rom 6:4) by the power of God (Col 2:11-13) via the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit (Tit 3:5) which is shed on us abundantly THROUGH Jesus Christ (Tit 3:6) which is why the gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23).

That takes us back to being justified freely by the grace of God THROUGH the redemption that is found in Jesus Christ (Rom 3:24, Tit 3:7). This "redemption" or being "set free by the payment of ransom" is made manifest to us when we abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) for Jesus Christ served as an example for us by condemning sin in the flesh via the Spirit (Rom 8:3) so that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled IN us when we likewise walk according to the Spirit (Rom 8:4).

God has declared that He is just in justifying those who believe in Jesus (Rom 3:26) because it is through the death of Christ that the root of iniquity in the heart of a sinner is dealt with (Heb 9:14, Heb 10:19-22, 1Joh 1:7). God sent Jesus Christ into the world to save sinners (1 Tim 1:15, Mat 1:21). How? By giving us an example to follow, by giving us the methodology by which we can be made the righteousness of God IN Jesus Christ (2Cor 5:21) hence he was made sin (in a figurative sense) for us (2Cor 5:21, Rom 8:3).


1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.



Penal Substitution, ie. the notion that Jesus "paid your fine" and this it is not due anymore if you "trust in Jesus" serves to undo everything I have written above. There is no HEART PURITY wrought in Penal Substitution and this is why so many who uphold it will defend the notion of ongoing sinfulness in a Christian.

We are to dig deep and study to show ourselves approved. My opinion is worthless if it is not in accordance with the actual truth.

God bless.







Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#5
Penal Substitution undermines a genuine repentance experience because it redefines the basis of salvation to be a forensic judicial legal exchange which took place via the work on the cross. Thus the aspect of "dying with Christ" via "godly sorrow and repentance" where the "axe is laid to the root of iniquity" is removed from the Gospel message.

Satan knows that the only means of being reconciled to God is via repentance and faith (through which we die and are raised up with Christ). Thus the best way to keep sinners from being reconciled to God is to redefine and thus undermine repentance and faith. Penal Substitution does exactly that by offering a "provisional salvation" where people come to believe they are saved because they "trust in the finished work of the cross" despite NEVER having had their hearts purged of an evil conscience. Thus the blood of Christ is twisted into a cover for an ongoing state of sinfulness instead of being the means by which sinfulness is actually dealt with once and for all.

If Satan can convince people they are saved when they are not then those people will have a mindset which shuts themselves off from a genuine salvation experience.

Jesus did warn that MANY would call Him "Lord, Lord" and be rejected as "workers of iniquity."

Let us not be one of them.





The bottom line is basically being "saved FROM sin" versus being "saved IN sin."

Salvation involves having "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2Pet 1:4) for it is the lusts of the flesh which draw people into sin (Jam 1:14-15). Thus being set free from sin involves escaping the the corruption through lust and this takes place by being "crucified with Christ" (Gal 2:20) where those who are Christ's have crucified their flesh with the passions and desires (Gal 5:24, 1Pet 4:2). In so doing we are then able to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) in which is found the victory over sin.
 
Last edited:

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,159
113
United Kingdom
#6
I wonder what was happening on the day of atonement was all about?
 
E

Exoaria

Guest
#7
I don't know about different theories, dogmas and doctrines. I just know that when I tried not to sin I sinned 20 times more than what I do by just focusing on Christ.

I don't have a big biblical response because I'm not a theologian.
I just know that my Bible says God is not counting my sins against me. I trust in that, and I trust in Him.

My righteousness which is mine in Spirit is made manifest in flesh by this means is more effective than anything I could ever do by my own works.
 
E

Exoaria

Guest
#8
Hell in infinite because our life is infinite, which is why finite sin has infinite consequences.

Jesus is God. God is infinite. Infinite sacrifice (even done in finite time) remits infinite punishment.
I can accept this as a final answer.
Thank you.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
#9
I just wanted to discuss something.

The idea is that Jesus suffered our penalty for sins on the cross. Right?

We go to infinite hell for finite sin. This is just one person.

Jesus suffered hours (finite punishment) on the cross with God's punishment (In no way am I undermining what he did) for EVERYONE'S (infinitely deserving) sin.

How does this work?
The ones that are tossed into hell are treated as we treat infinite trash, we toss it away into infinite landfill so that it will be out of our presence and others.

Matthew 25:30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 15:26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

Matthew 3:10
The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 5:13
“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.



Matthew 6:30
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,049
870
113
#10
I just wanted to discuss something.

The idea is that Jesus suffered our penalty for sins on the cross. Right?

We go to infinite hell for finite sin. This is just one person.

Jesus suffered hours (finite punishment) on the cross with God's punishment (In no way am I undermining what he did) for EVERYONE'S (infinitely deserving) sin.

How does this work?
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek
Romans 3:26 to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
Romans 4:24 but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

So the ? is do you believe God? and this is what god did by Son

[h=3]Colossians 1:21-23[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [SUP]23 [/SUP]if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,049
870
113
#11
I wonder what was happening on the day of atonement was all about?
The word Atonement, never takes away sin and Christ's sacrifice was not an Atonement as was the sacrifices of bulls and goats yearly for the sins of the people.
Christ's was and is the taking away of sin from Father's sight. So Father could come and live in us to teach us truth.
And we thus can be free for the truth sets one free and we shall be free indeed. So in anyone is in bondage then truth has not set them free, and just might need to re-think the truth they believe in, for in bondage is in error to truth and are not free.
Just some meat to eat if God permit
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,049
870
113
#12
I don't know about different theories, dogmas and doctrines. I just know that when I tried not to sin I sinned 20 times more than what I do by just focusing on Christ.

I don't have a big biblical response because I'm not a theologian.
I just know that my Bible says God is not counting my sins against me. I trust in that, and I trust in Him.

My righteousness which is mine in Spirit is made manifest in flesh by this means is more effective than anything I could ever do by my own works.
Yes, not many see the truth of what you just spoke and thanks
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting
 
Aug 5, 2013
624
2
0
#13
I just wanted to discuss something.

The idea is that Jesus suffered our penalty for sins on the cross. Right?

We go to infinite hell for finite sin. This is just one person.

Jesus suffered hours (finite punishment) on the cross with God's punishment (In no way am I undermining what he did) for EVERYONE'S (infinitely deserving) sin.

How does this work?
According to the Old Testament, someone had to die every time a sin was committed. Thus, many lambs and turtledoves died for sins. They all suffered finitely (and in fact instructions were given to end their suffering rather quickly), and so it makes sense that Jesus would also suffer for a finite amount of time (as he was more literally taking their place than a sinner's).

To be fair, though, one would reasonably ask why Jesus didn't go to Hell if he was taking on the punishment in atonement for the sins of others. He isn't a very good replacement for a sinner if He doesn't even suffer their fate when taking their place. But the biblical rules on atonement seem to be arbitrary, and don't necessarily make logical sense.

If I could suffer Jesus' fate (dying for a mere three days in exchange for ruling in Heaven for eternity to save the fates of countless people) then I'd do it, and you probably would, too, so his "suffering" in that context seems rather trite and hardly worthy of the word "suffering" or deserving of all the praise it constantly receives.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#14
I just wanted to discuss something.

The idea is that Jesus suffered our penalty for sins on the cross. Right?

We go to infinite hell for finite sin. This is just one person.

Jesus suffered hours (finite punishment) on the cross with God's punishment (In no way am I undermining what he did) for EVERYONE'S (infinitely deserving) sin.

How does this work?
i don't agree with the concept of 'finite sin' which would therefore require 'finite punishment'

the main message of the law is that you are either guilty or not...there is no in between...no finite distance between the two...if there are only two choices then the difference between those two choices is also the biggest possible difference within that logical system...it is conceptually infinite...

this is really hard to put into understandable terms without getting into mathematical technobabble that nobody will understand...so i will try again...

if you can only be either guilty or not guilty...than a guilty person is infinitely more guilty than a non guilty person...and vice versa...

what i am really trying to show is that if sin were to be mathematicalized...as people seem to be trying to do whenever they talk about 'finite sin'...then it actually turns out that sin would properly be an -infinite- quantity...

and as an infinite quantity sin would then justify infinite punishment...

jesus actually did suffer infinite punishment...again because there are only two possibilities...loved by God or forsaken by God...with the same implications that i tried to explain about sin... when jesus was forsaken by God on the cross...to mathematicalize the concept again...it would properly be considered an -infinite- punishment...

i don't know if any of that made any sense...like i said i didn't want to resort to illustrating the analogy with a bunch of mathematical terms that nobody would understand...this is what i get for reading a few books about set theory... :eek:
 
M

marrion

Guest
#15
Jesus sufferings began before the cross.His sufferings begin on thursday night in the garden of gethsemane and end on friday afternoon.The way you make it sound is that Jesus suffered a few hours on a cross and this paid for our sins.it was much more than that my friend and the pain was not only physical but mental,emotional,spiritual and psychological. The physical trauma of Christ begins in Gethsemane with one of the initial aspects of His suffering - the bloody sweat. It is interesting that the physician of the group, St. Luke, is the only one to mention this. He says, “And being in agony, He prayed the longer. And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.”
Though very rare, the phenomenon of hemathidrosis, or bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process alone could have produced marked weakness and possible shock.
After the arrest in the middle of the night, Jesus was brought before the Sanhedrin and Caiaphas, the High Priest. A soldier struck Jesus across the face for remaining silent when questioned by Caiaphas. The palace guards then blindfolded Him and mockingly taunted Him to identify them as they each passed by; they spat on Him and struck Him in the face.
[h=4]Condemned to Crucifixion[/h]In the early morning, Jesus, battered and bruised, dehydrated, and exhausted from a sleepless night, was taken across Jerusalem to the Praetorium of the Fortress Antonia. It was there, in response to the cries of the mob, that Pilate ordered Bar-Abbas released and condemned Jesus to scourging and crucifixion.
[h=4]Flogging first[/h]Preparations for the scourging are carried out. The prisoner is stripped of His clothing and His hands tied to a post above His head. The Roman legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum in his hand. This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two small balls of lead attached to the ends of each. The heavy whip is brought down with fill force again and again across Jesus’ shoulders, back and legs.
At first the heavy thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows.
Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue. When it is determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the beating is stopped.
The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with His own blood. The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be a king. They throw a robe across His shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a sceptre. A small bundle of flexible branches covered with long thorns is pressed into His scalp.
Again there is copious bleeding (the scalp being one of the most vascular areas in the body). After mocking Him and striking Him across the face, the soldiers take the stick from His hand and strike Him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into His scalp. Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport and the robe is torn from his back. This had already become adherent to the colts of blood and serum in the wounds, and its removal, just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, cause excruciating pain - almost as though He were again being whipped, and the wounds again begin to bleed.
[h=4]The walk to crucifixion[/h]The heavy beam of the cross is then tied across His shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves and the execution detail, begins its slow journey, The weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance.
[h=4]The nails of crucifixion[/h]At Golgotha, the beam is placed on the ground and Jesus is quickly thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep inot the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other side and repeats the action, being careful not to pull the arms too tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement. The beam is then lifted in place at the top of the posts and the titulus reading “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” is nailed in place.
[h=4]The pain of crucifixion[/h]The left foot is pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each. As he pushes Himself upward to avoid the stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones through the feet.
[h=4]Crucifixion - the medical effects[/h]As the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by His arms, the pectoral muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, He is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.
Hours of this limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain as tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins. A deep crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart.
The compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissues - the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain. Jesus gasps, “I thirst.”
[h=4]Crucifixion - the last gasp[/h]He can feel the chill of death creeping through His tissues. With one last surge of strength, He once again presses His torn feet against the nail, straightens His legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters His seventh and last cry, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
Apparently to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. Immediately there came out blood and water.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,159
113
United Kingdom
#16
The word Atonement, never takes away sin and Christ's sacrifice was not an Atonement as was the sacrifices of bulls and goats yearly for the sins of the people.
Christ's was and is the taking away of sin from Father's sight. So Father could come and live in us to teach us truth.
And we thus can be free for the truth sets one free and we shall be free indeed. So in anyone is in bondage then truth has not set them free, and just might need to re-think the truth they believe in, for in bondage is in error to truth and are not free.
Just some meat to eat if God permit
Hi Homeward,

I agree the word atonement never takes away sin, infact words only convey meaning. Yes, I can agree that Yom Kippur was not the same as Christ's atonement because it was only a shadow of things to come.. Jesus' sacrifice was once for all time.


Are you seriously trying to say that Jesus' sacrifice just removed sin from before the Fathers sight?

You forget the fact that Jesus became a curse for us..why did he become a curse in our place? was the curse not a punishment?

That Christ died for OUR sins.. why did he do that?

The list could go on..but let me ask you this, If Jesus did not bare our punishment then we have been let of the hook, that sounds good doesnt it? but in fact that is not just and certainly not justice!

How can we be just - made right before a just and Holy God without Holy justice.

I think you need to re read, what went on in the day of atonement.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. [SUP]10 [/SUP]As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[SUP][e][/SUP]
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] ruin and misery mark their ways,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and the way of peace they do not know.”[SUP][f][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[SUP][g][/SUP]

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
[h=3]Righteousness Through Faith[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. [SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP][i][/SUP] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished [SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
 
M

marrion

Guest
#17
starcrash,i dont think you have a full understanding or knowledge of the sufferings that Jesus actually voluntarily went through.Jesus was a sinless sacrifice which none of us could ever be so this excludes anyone who may think they could suffer Jesus fate.Remember Jesus was God in the flesh so his body was able to bare the punishment.i am quite dissapointed that you would label Jesus suffering as 'rather trite' in ANY CONTEXT but i think it is noble of you to think you would be brave enough to suffer the same fate as he did for the sake of saving others.Also adam and eves disobedience was finite but the effects of the disobedience will be infinite for many who do not accept Christ so also was Christs suffering and sacrifice finite but its effects will be infinite for those who accept him.Jesus is worthy of all praise,honor and glory and without his sacrifice life would really be unfair because we would all be on our way to hell because of the sin nature we inherited from our first parents adam and eve.
 
M

marrion

Guest
#18
ATONEMENT-AT-ONE-MENT-JESUS ENABLING US TO BE ONE WITH HIM.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,049
870
113
#19
According to the Old Testament, someone had to die every time a sin was committed. Thus, many lambs and turtledoves died for sins. They all suffered finitely (and in fact instructions were given to end their suffering rather quickly), and so it makes sense that Jesus would also suffer for a finite amount of time (as he was more literally taking their place than a sinner's).

To be fair, though, one would reasonably ask why Jesus didn't go to Hell if he was taking on the punishment in atonement for the sins of others. He isn't a very good replacement for a sinner if He doesn't even suffer their fate when taking their place. But the biblical rules on atonement seem to be arbitrary, and don't necessarily make logical sense.

If I could suffer Jesus' fate (dying for a mere three days in exchange for ruling in Heaven for eternity to save the fates of countless people) then I'd do it, and you probably would, too, so his "suffering" in that context seems rather trite and hardly worthy of the word "suffering" or deserving of all the praise it constantly receives.
So you would go to the death and receive the whip and scars on your flesh, for the whole world, yeah okay
There is scripture on and about this, and sorry you don't see this, and praying you come to have a contrite heart in need of Christ as your Savior. For what Christ did is not light at all.
Love to you
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,049
870
113
#20
i don't agree with the concept of 'finite sin' which would therefore require 'finite punishment'

the main message of the law is that you are either guilty or not...there is no in between...no finite distance between the two...if there are only two choices then the difference between those two choices is also the biggest possible difference within that logical system...it is conceptually infinite...

this is really hard to put into understandable terms without getting into mathematical technobabble that nobody will understand...so i will try again...

if you can only be either guilty or not guilty...than a guilty person is infinitely more guilty than a non guilty person...and vice versa...

what i am really trying to show is that if sin were to be mathematicalized...as people seem to be trying to do whenever they talk about 'finite sin'...then it actually turns out that sin would properly be an -infinite- quantity...

and as an infinite quantity sin would then justify infinite punishment...

jesus actually did suffer infinite punishment...again because there are only two possibilities...loved by God or forsaken by God...with the same implications that i tried to explain about sin... when jesus was forsaken by God on the cross...to mathematicalize the concept again...it would properly be considered an -infinite- punishment...

i don't know if any of that made any sense...like i said i didn't want to resort to illustrating the analogy with a bunch of mathematical terms that nobody would understand...this is what i get for reading a few books about set theory... :eek:
well as I see it, Christ took away all sin in Father's sight, so Father afterwards could come and live in us as Father did in Christ, yet a little more than just live in us, through us is what Christ did had Father live through him, as is what we are by belief to do. But before Father could ever do this, Sin had to be taken out of the way.
John 1:29 [ The Lamb of God ] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
John 19:28 [ It Is Finished ] After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!”
John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

So Father had turned his back on Son, while Son took on the sin of the whole world
Can Father see sin and not expunge it? So why did Father turn away from the sin that Jesus took on at that time?

This is what it accomplished
Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

so if we believe God in this then we might see the new life in the Spirit of God, for by this death of Christ we have been cleansed from any and all sin period.
So there are actually two responses to this fact
1. we appreciate this and trust God
2. we don't care and maybe act as if we do, but no matter what either one does believe and puts trust in Father as Christ did 100% or they do not.
And there is no escape if we neglect
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
[h=3]Hebrews 10:27-29[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?