Are Pastors Biblical?

presidente · Aug 22, 2013

I know that there is a Biblical pastor and teacher role mentioned in Ephesians 4:11. I am not talking about that. I am talking about the role we see in a lot of Protestant churches (in a broad use of the term) throughout the western world and other parts of the globe. So I would like to start a thread to discuss the differences between the Biblical overseer role and the modern pastorate.

First, I would like to point out that the apostles, Paul and Barnabas, appointed 'elders' in every church. Paul gave Titus and Timothy instructions regarding appointing elders. In Acts 20:28, Paul commands the elders of the church at Ephesus to pastor the church of God, over whom God had made them bishops (translated 'overseers' in some other translations.) The Bible does not use 'bishop' as a rank over the other elders. There is no record of the apostles laying hands on a 'pastor' other than the elders, or of some kind of hierarchy where there is a guy called the 'pastor' over the elders. Rather, the elders are told to pastor. We see this also in I Peter 5, where the elders are commanded to pastor the flock of God, to take the oversight (c.f. overseer/bishop) thereof, and when the Chief Pastor appears, they shall receive a crown of glory.

The Reformed movement in Geneva started calling their church elders 'pastors' and their unordained city elders 'elders.' The Scottish Presbyterians copied this, and the result was the non-pastoral board elder. When I say 'elder' from now on in this post, I don't speak of the board elder, but rather of a Biblical elder.

Differences between Biblical Elders and Modern Pastors
- The modern pastor is often hired to work at a church he is not a part of.
- The Biblical elders were appointed from within churches of which they were a part.

- The modern pastorate is a hired role.
- The Biblical elders lead a community of which they are a part.

- The Biblical elder is an 'elder'.
- The modern pastor could be a 'younger' if he has the right education, or claims to be called and speaks well.

- The Biblical elder had to be the husband of one wife and rule his children well.
- The modern pastor could be unmarried or have a household that's all messed up. Lots of churches won't check. He needs to speak well, though, and maybe have a seminary education.

- The Biblical elder was taught by the apostles or by others who had received apostolic instruction-- raised up from within the church or by training by evangelistic ministers.
- The modern pastor may not have a chance of getting hired for this professional position without a Bible College or seminary degree..

- The main role of the modern pastor is to preach 'the Sunday sermon.'
- The Bible gives no evidence that regular church meetings were based on one long sermon. Rather 'every one of you' sang a psalm, taught a doctrine, shared a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. The Bible says 'ye may all prophesy' and says of gatherings of the church 'exhort one another.

- Repeatedly the apostles appointed 'elders' in the plural, not just one, and there is no evidence of hierarchy among them in the New Testament.
- Churches typically have one pastor or one pastor in a hierarchical position over the other pastors.

- Modern pastors must give long sermons, in some churches preferably three point sermons.
- Biblical elders were to be 'apt to teach' but no specific requirements are given about their eloquence. I can find no evidence of a three point sermon in the New Testament, though this was a popular form of organizing a speech during that time.

kenisyes · Aug 22, 2013

Not for a few months, but I posted many times that pastors as we know them do not belong in leadership in the regular meetings of the church. But then again, we don't hardly anything else right in those meetings either, so what does it matter?

Elders is not really the solution, because 400 years of presbyterianism has not changed the nature of what we do on Sunday mornings. It is still a copy of the first half of the Catholic mass.

It seems pretty clear we need to throw the whole system out and start over, not just reorient the leadership plan.

Bookends · Aug 22, 2013

I see evidence for plurality leadership in the church with a head elder. Top down authoritarian leadership I don't believe is biblical. If you want to call a head elder a pastor, I'm ok with that, as long as the pastor has an attitude of a servant and not spiritually superior or a dictator.

presidente · Aug 22, 2013

Bookends said:

Where do you get the idea of the 'head elder' in scripture? Are you thinking of Caiaphas?

The Chief Pastor is Christ in I Peter 5.

Trax · Aug 22, 2013

A wife needs a husband that is a spiritual leader. The body of Christ has Christ as its Spiritual
leader and protector. The local body of Christ is there, between the married couple and the whole
body. The principles are there to govern the body, whether it is husband and wife as one flesh,
or one local body of Christ, or the whole body of Christ. The principles of of the body of Christ
and Christ are applied to the husband and wife. In the local body, the congregation is in the role
of the wife and the pastor is in the role of the husband. If these principles are not in place
then there is going to be a troubled marriage, trouble in the local church, and trouble in the body
as a whole.

presidente · Aug 22, 2013

Trax said:

I don't see this in the Bible at all (apart from Christ as the pastor.) Do you call your church leader the 'vicor of Christ' by any chance?

First of all, can you show me any evidence of 'the pastor' of the type you speak of in the Bible at all?

Trax · Aug 22, 2013

presidente said:

Eph 5:22-33 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. (23) For the husband
is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
(24) Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (26) That
he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (27) That he might present it to
himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and
without blemish. (28) So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife
loveth himself. (29) For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even
as the Lord the church: (30) For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
(31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife,
and they two shall be one flesh. (32) This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and
the church. (33) Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself;
and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Paul is using marriage and Christ and His church to convey a truth. He applies the same spiritual
principles to BOTH. Between the whole body and the marriage body, is the local body. The local
body is just a bigger picture of the marriage body and a smaller picture of the whole body.
The local assembly is a picture of the wife and husband and Christ. The preacher isn't Christ, but is
in the role of the husband. The people in the pews is a picture of the wife. Paul ties it together
and applies the same spiritual principles. Wife submits to her husband, who submits to Christ.
A bigger picture, the congregation submits to the paster who submits to Christ. The body submits
to Christ who submits to His Father. The same picture and the same spiritual principles.

presidente · Aug 22, 2013

Trax said:

Can you show me where the Bible says this? How does that square with the fact that the apostles appointed multiple elders per congregation?

1still_waters · Aug 22, 2013

For what it's worth, it seems like every time I argue that John 10 is only about Jesus, I get told it applies to pastors too. So if it applies to pastors too, that implies there is such a thing as a pastor.

So if you believe pastors don't exist, but also think John 10 applies to pastors, well then there is a lil contradiction there.Kinda puts contrarians in a bind. They want to say there is no such thing as pastors, but they also want to say the verses below don't just apply to Jesus.

10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.[SUP]12 [/SUP]He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. [SUP]13 [/SUP]He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, [SUP]15 [/SUP]just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Bookends · Aug 22, 2013

presidente said:

I don't think see the concept directly, but the idea is implied. Much like the trinity doctrine and rapture doctrine. I believe James was a head elder, leader of the Jerusalem Church. and Timothy was a key leader in Ephesus. In 1 Peter 5 verse 2, Peter talks of a shepherd to lead the flock of God, I don't believe this shepherd spoken of here refers to Christ but in verse 3 it certain does. Again, I think the idea is implied. Through out scripture as well you see God as a God of order or structure, you have Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, head/chief priests all set up by God. Not kings but they were key head figures nevertheless, and I think too many chiefs without a head chief could lead to potential problems within a church.

And yes, Christ is our head shepherd/Pastor.

Bookends · Aug 22, 2013

Bookends said:

I don't think see the concept directly, but the idea is implied. Much like the trinity doctrine and rapture doctrine. I believe James was a head elder, leader of the Jerusalem Church. and Timothy was a key leader in Ephesus. In 1 Peter 5 verse 2, Peter talks of a shepherd to lead the flock of God, I don't believe this shepherd spoken of here refers to Christ but in verse 3 it certain does. Again, I think the idea is implied. Through out scripture as well you see God as a God of order or structure, you have Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, head/chief priests all set up by God. Not kings but they were key head figures nevertheless, and I think too many chiefs without a head chief could lead to potential problems within a church.

And yes, Christ is our head shepherd/Pastor.

And I'd like to add Jesus told Peter to take care of His sheep. John 21:16

Stephen63 · Aug 22, 2013

presidente said:

Always wondered where that crazy stuff started. Sheesh. Talk about a thorn in the flesh of the church! Men making decisions about all the issues in the church, & most I've seen don't have the spiritual maturity to properly pray, let alone lead! It's like handing the authority of the church over to kids. (sounds like something I've read in the OT)

Stephen63 · Aug 22, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Found it.

Yep, it's being repeated again.

presidente · Aug 22, 2013

Bookends said:

Paul implies that James was an apostle. I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6 indicate Timothy as an apostle. He was an itinerate preacher there appointing the local elders.

Elders should pastor. But notice it says 'elders' and not 'THE pastor.'

Moses was a leader of the people, but he was a type of Christ as we see in the book of Hebrews and in Stephen's sermon.

Christ is the King.

Kerry · Aug 23, 2013

well my church is governed by parliamentary procedure. We board members ( some say deacons) that are elected by the members of the church. You don't have to be a member to attend but, you must be a member to vote. The Pastor cannot vote except to break a tie. Most try to keep the number of board members odd to avoid a tie. Board members serve a 3 year term and can be reelected.

The role of the Pastor is encouragement, spiritual guidance, counsel, and protect the flock or to expose influences that might lead one astray. Probably more than listed. But not as an absolute authority.

The board oversees the business side of the church, finances and so forth, building projects, etc...

Also this way the Pastor doesn't know who gives what so He is not tempted to be biased.

Call him a elder, pastor, reverend, does it matter. Mine prefers to be called brother.

RoboOp · Aug 23, 2013

presidente said:

Yes I agree on all points.

It's hard for many to see, and even if they say they see it, they still don't get it, but it's pretty simple:

elder = overseer = pastor

The terms are synonymous. Rather than "the pastor", there were "the elders" (also referred to as overseers), and their main duty was to shepherd/pastor the church. Pastor simply means shepherd (it's the same greek word actually).

When I tell someone this they will agree. Then in the next breath they will say "but the pastor [fill in the blank]", telling what the pastor does, as distinct from the elders. Can't get the point that the elders are the pastors, period.

It's shared leadership, which any of the men (who are gifted) can aspire to and share in that responsibility in the future, and it makes more accountability. It's also a mentality, not just a structure. The "Biblical eldership" mentality, as opposed to the "one God-called man of the congregation" mentality (wherein there can only be ONE "God-called" man, and of course he must have a special degree, and a special title, and in some groups even special attire).

John MacArthur did a good piece on this and begins with saying that many see Biblical eldership (where the elders are the pastors) as a subversive concept. I discussed it in the chat room once with another brother and then a pastor in the room started to accuse us, to my surprise. So I guess MacArthur is right, some see it as a subversive concept. *shrug* I just see it as a Biblical concept.

One problem is people have a totally different definition of "elders". In many churches, those are some guys on a board and you don't even know who they are. But in the Bible, the elders are the pastors, period. One or more than one elder may be supported by the church and do more of the teaching, but they're all full-fledged pastors and share the responsibility of pastoring the flock, and are accountable to each other.

The solution is throw out all tradition and look at the scripture without reading in all the tradition.

RoboOp · Aug 23, 2013

Another point. Even when the apostles appointed the church leaders he warned them that "savage wolves would arise" from among them. So that will happen even when we're following the Biblical guidelines. But how much more will it happen when we're not following those guidelines.

I mean, with the professional recruiting based on the non-biblical qualification of a seminary degree(which then totally overshadows the qualifications of character, maturity, and being tested), and as has been said often recruiting young single guys, you'll get a lot more wolves, as well as men who may not be wolves but don't have the maturity (e.g., sexual purity) and then you get more scandals in the church.

So it's very important to follow the Biblical guidelines and patterns (e.g., 1 Tim 3, Titus 1, and the models of leadership structure/mentality that we see in Acts, 1 Peter 5, etc.), so that the church is healthy and shines, with minimum scandals among the leaders.

Read the words of Paul to the church leaders in Acts:

...savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciplesafter them. So be on your guard!

How much more will all this happen when we bypass and replace all the Biblical guidelines.

And while we're on that passage, let's expand it and note that he's talking to the "elders" whom he also refers to as overseers and shepherds (i.e., pastors):

Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciplesafter them. So be on your guard!

presidente · Aug 23, 2013

And if you only have one pastor and he turns into a wolf, who is there to protect the sheep? If you have a hierarchy and the 'senior pastor' at the top of the pyramid turns into a wolf, the other leaders may be afraid that confronting him is rebellious.

RoboOp · Aug 23, 2013

I'll add another thing, and this may sound really weird, but I'll say it anyway.

With the "one God-called man of the congregation" mentality, often enough that one man is regarded as so special that common-sense precautions with women are not observed with that one man that would normally be observed with any other men of the church, such as being alone in a closed "office", and perhaps even physical touch, etc., and you know the result that happens sometimes.

I know a good sister in CC who had marriage problems and told the pastor, in a closed office or place where they were alone, and she says the pastor physically embraced her, so she slapped him. Good for her, because surely that's exactly how many of those sexual scandals happen.

Anyway I know even one-man-pastors can observe the same precautions and wisdom but I just think the lack of that is more prevalent with the "one God-called man of the congregation" mentality.

Sorry if that sounds weird, but I think it's a valid point.

I mean no disrespect to any pastors. I'm just giving various examples of how less Biblical mentalities and structures contribute to more problems in the church, and pitfalls.

nathan3 · Aug 23, 2013

Acts 20:28

Jeremiah 3:15

Ephesians 4:11

Naturally there are conditions, to feed the sheep,,, all the words of God. Not some , not something different, and not leading them astray .

1 John 4:1 ( according to what is written )

Are Pastors Biblical?

Senior Member

kenisyes

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Trax

Guest

Senior Member

Trax

Guest

Senior Member

1still_waters

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Kerry

Guest

Administrator

Administrator

Senior Member

Administrator

nathan3

Guest