The Adventist Roots of King-James-Version-Onlyism

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Dec 21, 2012
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The Unlearned Men: The True Genealogy and Genesis of King-James-Version-Onlyism

by Doug Kutilek

"Roots" of the KJV Controversy

Robert Dick Wilson, the great Princeton Seminary Old Testament Scholar who died in 1930, was well-practiced in exposing and refuting error in matters of Biblical studies. In one of his writings, he insisted on the importance of tracing every error back to its original source. His research had convinced him that almost invariably any commonly-held but false view could be traced back to a single writer, and that this error had become widespread, not because other writers had independently investigated the same evidence and arrived at the same conclusions, but merely because other writers were lazy and simply parroted the conclusions of the first writer. In short, the false conclusions were naively adopted and the evidence ignored.

In the realm of King-James-Version-Onlyism, just such a genealogy of error can be easily traced. All writers who embrace the KJV-only position have derived their views ultimately from Seventh-day Adventist missionary, theology professor and college president, Benjamin G. Wilkinson (d.1968), through one of two or three of his spiritual descendants. In 1930, he wrote Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, a book of several hundred pages which attracted almost no attention in its day (no doubt chiefly because it was awash in a vast ocean of error). In that book, Wilkinson attacked the Westcott-Hort Greek text, in large measure by attacking Westcott and Hort personally (the common but fallacious ad hominem method; I exposed and refuted his line of argument in "Erasmus and His Theology," The Biblical Evangelist, vol. 19, no. 20, October 15, 1985, pp. 3, 4). He also expressed strong opposition to the English Revised Version New Testament (1881), in particular objecting to it because it robbed Adventism of two favorite proof-texts, one allegedly teaching Gentile Sabbath-keeping (Acts 13:42 ), the other misused by the Adventists to teach soul sleep (Hebrews 9:27 ). I documented some of Wilkinson's grosser errors in "Wilkinson's Incredible Errors," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. I, no.3, Fall, 1990. Wilkinson was the first to misappply Psalm 12:6, 7 specifically to the KJV as though the passage were a promise to preserve the words of verse six (when in fact the promise is the preservation of the persecuted saints of verse five, as I demonstrated in my essay, "A Careful Investigation of Psalm 12:6, 7," The Biblical Evangelist, vol. 17, no. 21, October 14, 1983, later issued in booklet form as "Why Psalm 12:6, 7 is not a Promise of the Divine Preservation of Scripture"). Wilkinson also manufactured the erroneous idea that the medieval Waldensian Bible was based on the Old Latin version and not the Vulgate, and that the Old Latin version was Byzantine in its text-type (all of which is demonstrably false, as I showed in "The Truth about the Waldensian Bible and the Old Latin Version," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. II, no. 2, Summer, 1991). Thus Wilkinson, the first generation.

Wilkinson's book lay unused and unknown (and how good it would have been had his errors died with him!), until 1955 when J. J. Ray, who is self-described as "business manager, missionary, Bible teacher" published a little volume, God Wrote Only One Bible (Ray is apparently still living, but I can find out nothing about him, and he refuses to reply to certified letters; if anyone can supply specific information about this man, I would greatly appreciate it). In his book, Ray heavily plagiarized, without note or acknowledgement, Wilkinson's book, repeating and propagating wholesale Wilkinson's errors and misstatements (the fact of Ray's plagiarism and dependence is documented in Gary Hudson's article, "The Real 'Eye Opener'," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. II, no. 1, Spring, 1991). Ray's book has gone through numerous printings, with total copies numbering perhaps in the tens of thousands. I first saw a copy myself in 1971 as a first-year student at Baptist Bible College, Springfield, Missouri, where I was also introduced--by students from Ohio--to Ruckman's Bible Babel and Fuller's Which Bible? I find it of particular interest that Ray acknowledges that there are some erroneous translations in the KJV which do demand revision (pp. 30, 31, 102), a position today's KJVO mainstream would consider rank heresy.

The other chief disseminator of Wilkinson's misinformation was David Otis Fuller, a Regular Baptist pastor. Fuller must be counted as part of the third generation, since, according to Fuller's own words in the dedication of Counterfeit or Genuine (1975), Ray's book God Wrote Only One Bible "moved me to begin this fascinating study." Ray and his book were also repeatedly noted on pp.2-4 of Which Bible? I imagine the scenario went something like this: Fuller reads Ray; Fuller writes Ray for more information; Ray directs Fuller to Wilkinson; Fuller reads Wilkinson, is led astray, then reprints Wilkinson in Which Bible?

In 1970, Fuller issued Which Bible?, which was in its 5th edition by 1975 and contained 350 pages. Of those pages, almost half were taken from Wilkinson's Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, with some editing, first to conceal from view Wilkinson's cult affiliation, and second, to correct some of the worst of his errors. According to D. A. Waite, long associated with Fuller in KJVO matters, Fuller knew full-well that Wilkinson was an Adventist and deliberately concealed that fact from the reader, and even from the publisher, because the Baptist brethren "wouldn't understand." Fuller's haphazard "back and fill" operation aimed at editing out some of Wilkinson's grosser errors failed miserably to make a silk purse out of a literary sow's ear, with most errors left untouched (see the expose by myself and Gary Hudson, "The Great 'Which Bible?' Fraud," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. I, no. 2, Summer, 1990). As reproduced in Which Bible?, Wilkinson's material is still plagued by blatant misstatements of the facts, distortions, misrepresentations and half-truths (see my article, "Wilkinson's Incredible Errors," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. I, no. 3, Fall, 1990).

It is this same David Otis Fuller who knowingly misrepresented the views of Spurgeon regarding the textus receptus, KJV, and English Revised Version (I exposed Fuller's deception with extensive quotation and documentation from Spurgeon's own writings in, "Spurgeon and Bible Translations: the Abuse Continues," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. I, no. 1, Spring, 1990, and later issued in booklet form as "An Answer to David Otis Fuller" by Pilgrim Publications).

And it is this same David Otis Fuller who grossly mirepresented the views of Robert Dick Wilson concerning the English Bible. Fuller claimed that the views of Wilson and himself in this regard were exactly the same, that is, that Wilson, too, found no errors in the English translation and none in the underlying texts in Hebrew and Greek. Anyone familiar with Wilson's writings at all knows that Wilson believed that only the original text was inspired, that often the translation must be corrected on the basis of the original, and that, though current Hebrew copies of the Old Testament are generally reliable, sometimes the ancient versions (Septuagint, Syriac, Vulgate, etc.) preserve the true original reading in places were the Hebrew has been corrupted in the copying process (see Wilson's remarks in Studies in the Book of Daniel, vol. I, pp.84-85, and A Scientific Investigation of the Old Testament, p. 61).

Fuller also dragged Anglican priest John William Burgon in as "witness" for his own point of view, even founding a society named in Burgon's honor, though the society propagated views the late Dean Burgon would have rejected. Contrary to David Otis Fuller, not only did Burgon not believe the textus receptus was unalterably perfect and the KJV unchangeably correct, he was convinced that the textus receptus needed extensive revision (proposing more than 120 changes in Matthew's Gospel alone), and stated in print that in some places the English Revised New Testament of 1881 was a decided improvement over KJV obscurities and inaccuracies (see the direct quotations from Burgon's famous book, The Revision Revised, in Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. IV no. 2, pp. 4, 11, 16; and Gary Hudson's article, "Why Dean Burgon Would Not Join the Dean Burgon Society," available from the author).

Fuller, in summary, was ready and willing to conceal the truth about Wilkinson, and deliberately distort the opinions of Spurgeon and Wilson, men he claimed to admire, and to invoke the name of John William Burgon, to deceive his readers and to bolster his own views, even though his (Fuller's) views were very much at odds with the beliefs of these men. Such blatant dishonesty and disregard for the truth does not fill one with confidence in examining anything Fuller wrote or edited on the Bible translation controversy, and yet Fuller is a "founding father" and "leading light" of the KJVO movement!!

The book Fuller edited, Which Bible?, is a hodge-podge of writings, many by authors such as Robert Dick Wilson, Zane Hodges and others, who distinctly reject the textus receptus-only/KJV-only point of view (and at least one of the writers who gave Fuller permission to include something he had written, complained about the way Fuller had altered the writer's point of view in the editing process), and actually gives some information which refutes some of the extremes of the KJVO movement. In spite of its inherent defects, inherently contradictory points of view, and frequent errors, Which Bible? in numerous printings in at least five editions has had a very extensive influence in shaping much of the current debate and disseminating much of the misinformation that characterizes KJV-onlyism today. Without any doubt at all, I am convinced that the vast majority of this highly destructive controversy is a direct result of Fuller's deceptive and inflammatory book, Which Bible?, and that he must bear the odium of stirring up strife among brethren (Proverbs 6:19).

Also in the third generation, without question the most vocal and abusive of the KJVO partisans is Peter S. Ruckman, who passes for a Baptist preacher and whose rantings have been thrust upon the public in a monthly publication Bible Believers' Bulletin, but especially in a series of uniformly bound and uniformly bad books that are claimed to be commentaries on various Bible books, topical books on Bible-related subjects, and books related to the Bible text and translation issue. All of his writings are characterized by the most vehement villification and denunciation of everyone and anyone, lumping together great defenders of the faith such as B. B. Warfield, A. T. Robertson, and Charles Spurgeon (when he's not falsely claiming Spurgeon's support for his own views), with the likes of Wellhausen, Hitler, and Harry Fosdick. Far worse is the torrent of errors that flood each work and virtually each page of Ruckman's every published work. He single-handedly has injected more misinformation into the controversy than all other writers combined. It is he who first propagated the erroneous idea that the KJV has no copyright (I exposed and refuted this error with extensive documentation in "The KJV is a Copyrighted Translation," first published in The Biblical Evangelist, vol. 17, no. 11, May 27, 1983, and reissued in a revised and expanded form in Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. IV, no. 3, October, 1993). It was he who manufactured out of whole cloth the false claim that no Protestant scholar has ever personally examined the Vaticanus manuscript (see for my refutation, "Ruckmanism: A Refuge of Lies," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. IV, no. 4, January, 1994). It was he who created out of thin air the absurd notion that there was no Greek translation of the Old Testament until one was produced by Origen in the third century A. D. (proven false by me in "The Septuagint: Riplinger's Blunders, Believe It or Not," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. V, no. 2, Third quarter, 1994).

And how was Ruckman drawn into the fray? What book influenced him? Ruckman's first-born book on the subject (unfortunately not "still-born"), The Bible Babel (1964) betrays unmistakeable signs of heavy dependence on Ray. Ruckman's chart of "corrupt" texts and versions facing p. 28 is an abbreviation of Ray, pp.56-70; Ruckman's "tree" of "good" versions facing p. 73 is a virtual reproduction, with very minor alterations, of Ray's chart on p. 109; on p. VIII of the footnote references, Ruckman specifically mentions Ray's book, though giving the title as "God Only Wrote One Book," which is typical of Ruckman's level of accuracy. Just as Wilkinson misapplied Psalm 12:6,7 to the KJV, as did Ray, so did Ruckman. Furthermore, in his so-called The Christian's Handbook of Manuscript Evidence (1970), Ruckman specifically commends Ray (along with Edward F. Hills) as one of a very few reliable writers on text and translation issues (preface, p. I).

A word needs to be said here about Edward F. Hills, who wrote two books that in part address the text and translation controversy, Believing Bible Study (1967) and The King James Version Defended (1956, 1973), and who wrote a chapter on Burgon in Fuller's Which Bible? The theme of Hills' work is the defense of, not just the Byzantine text-type in general as the true original form of the text of the New Testament, but the defense of the specific textus receptus form of the Byzantine text, including the unique (i.e., unsupported) readings in the textus receptus introduced by Erasmus (the textus receptus and the majority text as published by Hodges and Farstad differ in 1,838 specifics). Hills, who did not advocate the inerrancy of the King James Version nor the Origenian origin of the Septuagint, is neither a founding father nor a star of the first magnitude of the KJVO movement, but may be viewed as a secondary tributary, whose works are commonly cited wherever his words can be made to support a writer's point. On the whole, Hills' writings are much better-informed and more accurate in presentation of facts than nearly all of the KJVO literature, though he writes as one blinded to evidence by his presuppositions. An extended analysis of Hills and his point of view was made by Dr. James A. Price, "King James Only View of Edward F. Hills," Baptist Biblical Heritage, vol. I, no. 4, Winter 1990-1.

From Ruckman have sprung, like the serpent heads from Hydra, a teeming uncongealed mass of incredibly misinformed writers, editors, preachers and evangelists, imagining that they are defending the true faith when in fact their ignorance of the truth is almost immeasurable. As John Broadus was wont to say, it is amazing how much ignorance some men have been able to accumulate.

Among those heavily influenced by Fuller can be named D. A. Waite, who now does a great deal of his own misleading, and E. L. Bynum. Jack Chick, whose comic books:rolleyes: have espoused KJV-onlyism, has acknowledged in letters that he is entirely dependent for his information on Fuller and Ruckman. I am reminded immediately of an ancient Jewish proverb: "If you wish to strangle, be hanged on a good tree," that is, if you must rely on an authority, you do well to make sure it is a reliable one.

From Wilkinson in the first generation, through Ray in the second, and Fuller and Ruckman in the third, the entire KJVO movement has arisen, and every present-day KJV-onlyite is a direct spiritual descendant of these ill-informed men. And as the movement has progressed from one generation to the next, with each new generation arising from intellectually-incestuous in-breeding, the views have become more radicalized and extreme. First, the KJV was viewed as better than other English versions, though not above some revision and correction (thus Ray); then, the view was taken that the KJV was error-free (but not without insoluble problems; thus Fuller); then, the KJV came to be accepted as perfect, and infallible, unalterably exact, superior even to the Greek and Hebrew texts from which it was made, and in fact was alleged to contain new revelations not found in the Greek and Hebrew (thus Ruckman); and now it is asserted that a person cannot be saved unless through the English KJV (thus Hyles and others), and all foreign Bibles should be revised to conform to the KJV (a view advocated by, among many others, some Americans visiting in Romania, by an American missionary in Japan, and by a church in Arizona which insists that the Reina-Valera Spanish translation, which has brought the conversions of millions, is not the Word of God), a point of view so absurd that only the most culturally isolated could believe it. The movement has become a vulgar caricature of itself, rushing at break-neck speed to ever more extreme views, and as the adherents grope about in the intellectual smog of KJV-onlyism, having lost all perspective and ability to discern truth from error, they become easy prey for every false doctrine. One leading KJVO advocate in the upper Midwest was recently ostracized from his circle of associates because he has begun espousing British Israelism, the view that the English-speaking peoples are Israel (the view of Garner Ted Armstrong; this view arises naturally from KJV-onlyism, for after all, the English-speaking people must be special, since to them alone God gave an infallible, inspired, perfectly preserved translation, right?).

Every KJVO advocate is a lineal descendant of Wilkinson, Ray, Fuller and Ruckman, and all are the victims (unwitting, I hope) of the multitude of gross distortions, errors, corruptions, misunderstandings, misrepresentations, and, in some cases, outright lies of these men. These men are collectively a bruised reed of a staff, upon which if a man leans, it will pierce his hand. They are unreliable in the extreme and are deserving of no confidence as to the truthfulness of anything they affirm. But I have no doubt that some will blissfully continue in their ignorance, willfully ignorant of the truth, not seeing because they do not want to see.

"So then Wilkinson, when he had conceived, brought forth Ray, and Ray, when he was full-grown, brought forth Fuller, Ruckman, Waite, Chick, Riplinger, Hyles, Bynum,...."
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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#2
Well since I have permission from brother Will Kinney to share his articles, I believe this will be the thread where it is necessary to do so. Here is an email exchange between Will Kinney and Doug Kutilek on the Bible Version Issue.
[HR][/HR]

E mail exchange with Bible Agnostic Doug Kutilek



An E mail exchange with Bible Agnostic Doug Kutilek

Mr. Doug Kutilek is a fairly well known critic of the King James Bible. He has his own website filled with many articles he has written discussing his own textual theories and pointing out what he thinks are “great defects” and “serious flaws” in the King James Bible.

His site is found here: http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/index_doug.html

In response to one of Mr. Kutilek’s articles titled “Why Psalm 12:6,7 Is Not APromise Of The Infallible Preservation Of Scripture” I wrote an article defending the position that Psalms 12 does teach the truth that God has promised to preserve and keep His words, and that where they are found today and for almost 400 years now is in the King James Bible.

I then wrote Mr. Kutilek informing him that I had written this article and wanted him to be aware of it in case he decided to respond in any way.

Here is a copy of my email to Mr. Kutilek.

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 07:15:34 -0700 Will Kinney <[email protected]> writes:

Hi Doug. I was asked about your article on Psalm 12 by a Bible believer in the Philippines and so I decided to finally put this article together. I certainly do not expect you to like or receive it, but thought you should know how I responded to your article. Keep em coming. You just give me more good things to study.

http://brandplucked.webs.com/dougkutilekpsalm12.htm

Will Kinney

Then Doug Kutilek sent me this letter that included a link to one of his articles about “final authority in hand” and I then responded:

[HR][/HR]
On Dec 28, 2009, at 8:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:
http://www.kjvonly.org/doug/kutilek_final_authority.htm


“It is therefore entirely in keeping with this evidence to conclude that we DO HAVE here presumptively the exact reading of the original words as given by the Holy Spirit to and through Daniel (cf. 2 Peter 1:20, 21). Since in this particular place we have perfectly preserved for us the exact original words, who can dispute that we do have the absolute authority of the inspired original here? And if that is the case, then it is entirely proper and right--indeed, it is the only valid course of action--to appeal to and rely on those inspired and infallible original words for determining what is or is not the correct translation of those words into English. Anything else, anything less, would be inadequate.” (end of email from Doug Kutilek)
[HR][/HR]

I then responded: Hi Doug. Thanks for writing. You keep talking about "the exact original words", and "the original language texts" as though you actually have them, and you know you do not.

The best you seem to be able to come up with is "to conclude that we do have HERE (in this one spot as opposed to ALL of it) PRESUMPTIVELY (one can never be quite sure) the exact reading of "the" original words..."

That's good, Doug. Really a strong stand for infallibility;-)

You end up with no final written authority and no Standard. I know you have heard all the arguments before as I have heard yours. We probably will not budge each other on bit this side of glory.

Many of your objections to the KJB have to do with those printing errors. I have addressed this.

http://brandplucked.webs.com/printingerrors.htm

The history of the KJB perfectly reflects the history of how God has preserved His complete words. Some will see this and others will not.

I guess when we both get to glory we will be shown which view is the correct one.

God bless,

Will Kinney


Then Mr. Kutilek wrote another email to me
[HR][/HR]

On Dec 29, 2009, at 3:02 PM, [email protected] wrote:

Mr. Kinney--

I seem to have missed your answer to my question:

"Where is your "original" KJV and when did you or any living soul actually see it?"

Surely you must have answered so simple a question as that, but I couldn't find it in your reply.

Note well: If you do not have the translators' original manuscript of the AV submitted to the printer in 1610/1611, then you do not have the ORIGINAL KJV, only divergent and defective printed copies, and can never be sure which variant reading is the true "original."

So, please answer my one question straight out:

"Where is your "original" KJV and when did you or any living soul actually see it?"

DKK
[HR][/HR]

Hi Doug. I have never seen the "original" KJB. You can buy a reprint of it from Thomas Nelson Publishers if you want. I have a copy. You can also see the original 1611 readings over at Studylight.org and there is another online copy of it found here.

http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible

Unlike you, Doug, God has given me the faith to believe there really is such a thing on this earth as "the book of the LORD". You may have heard of it. It's called the King James Holy Bible.

On the other hand, your position is that of the Bible Agnostic. You simply do not know which texts are the right ones and you have no complete, inspired and infallible Bible to give to anyone. I have read enough of your writings to see this obvious truth about your present position regarding "the Bible"


Do I need to have an exact copy of the original 1611 Holy Bible (that it what it was called then) to believe I have God's complete and perfect words in print today? No.

Your position leaves you with no "originals" (you know, those invisible, imaginary thingies you keep telling us is your Standard), and no complete and infallible Bible now.

So, I'll stick with what I believe and you can have your biblical agnosticism.

Hasta luego,

Will Kinney
[HR][/HR]



 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
63
#3
Email Exchange between Will Kinney and Doug Kutilek on the Bible Version Issue Part 2.

[HR][/HR]

And finally Mr. Kutilek wrote his third email to me saying:

[HR][/HR]

On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:43 PM, [email protected] wrote:

Mr. Kinney--

You lambaste me for not having the "original Hebrew and Greek" (though my claim doesn't differ at all from what the KJV translators themselves claimed on their title page and in in their "Translators to the readers" prefaced to the 1611 printing) and you boast that you, in contrast, DO have the "original KJV." Yet, when I ask for your original KJV, all you can do is direct my attention to printed copies, or worse, copies of copies of copies (the Nelson reprint of an Oxford reprint--1911--which is taken from the 1611 printed edition).

I sure enough have had a copy of the Nelson reprint (I passed it on to a friend); and I have long had the 1911 Oxford reprinting of the text of the 1611 edition (the "he" Bible, Ruth 3:15). My brother has a full-sized facsimile reprint of the 1611 edition, and I have examined that; and even better, I have examined with my own eyes and handled with my own hands copies of the KJV actually reprinted in 1611 (the first time was in the library at the University of Chicago in 1975), including both "he" and "she" editions.

But, the fact remains--NONE of these is the ORIGINAL KJV. There are merely printer's copies of the original MANUSCRIPT submitted to the printers by the translators. That manuscript original KJV was by all accounts LOST during the great London Fire of 1666 and has not been seen since then (no "perfect preservation " there!). In short, your "original" KJV is as certainly "lost" and inaccessible to you as the "original" copy of Genesis or Romans is to me, and since the two earliest editions differ in over 2,000 places, there is no way to be sure, where they differ, which one preserves the true original reading. Further, it is just possible that they both have the same error in the same place and NEITHER contains the precise wording of the lost original. There is simply no way to tell.

You do not have the original KJV. None of your cohorts in KJVOism have the original KJV or have ever seen it. All you have are fallible, mutually differing copies.

Your claim is bogus. By your own standard of evidence and requirements, you have no Bible. "No ORIGINAL KJVmanuscript = No Bible"

Doug Kutilek
[HR][/HR]

My Third response to Mr. Kutilek.

Hi Doug. First of all, I never said that “the original King James Bible hand written copy sent to the printers” was my final authority. I said and still say that it is the printed text of the King James Bible that we have today. I have one right here on my desk as I write this email to you.

Even the American Bible Society, no friend to the King James Bible, had this to say about the "revisions" of the King James Bible. The American Bible Society wrote, "The English Bible, as left by the translators (of 1611), has come down to us unaltered in respect to its text..." They further stated, "With the exception of typographical errors and changes required by the progress of orthography in the English language, the text of our present Bibles remains unchanged, and without variation from the original copy as left by the translators" (Committee on Versions to the Board of Managers, American Bible Society, 1852).

Your complaint that unless I have “the original” handwritten copy of the King James Bible then I do not have an infallible Bible is simply a PRETEXT and a very lame EXCUSE for your basic Bible Agnosticism. You couldn’t care less if the original King James Bible hand written copy existed or not. If it existed today enshrined in a glass case at a museum somewhere in London, England for all the world to see, it would make absolutely no difference to you one way or the other, nor would it budge you in the least from your own present unbelief in the existence of any Bible in any language that IS the complete, inspired and 100% true preserved words of God.

Even if the original hand written copy of the King James Bible existed, you would still not believe what it says are the true words of God. You would still claim that it is based on the wrong texts and is poorly translated in numerous places, just like you do on your website.

You would still claim that to refer to the Spirit of God as “it” is what you call “the Greatest Defect in the King James Version”, even though I have soundly refuted this silly objection of yours -

http://brandplucked.webs.com/thespirititself.htm

or that the phrase “God forbid” is wrong because, in your own words: “the word “God” is not found in the original text; and neither is the word “forbid.” Other than that, it is a fine representation of the original! ”

Again, I have refutted your silly criticism of the King James Bible and many other translations as well for this perfectly accurate translation of “God forbid” -

http://brandplucked.webs.com/godforbid.htm

Or you would still claim that 1 John 5:7 does not belong in the real “Bible” you can never identify for us, nor in those long lost and invisible “the originals” you keep trying to make us think you have access to and is your imaginary “Standard”.

http://brandplucked.webs.com/1john57.htm

Let’s contrast your position of being a Bible Agnostic (you don’t know what God really inspired in many places of Scripture) versus that of the King James Bible believer.

Are you a Bible Believer or a Bible Agnostic -
http://brandplucked.webs.com/biblebelieveragnostic.htm

I and many thousands of other Bible believers actually believe God meant what He said about preserving and keeping His words in “the book of the LORD” till heaven and earth pass away. We believe God in His sovereignty has in fact given us such a Book and this Bible is the Authorized King James Holy Bible of 1611.

Do we need “the original hand written copy” to believe we have God’s pure words in print today? No. We can easily determine exactly how the SPECIFIC underlying Hebrew and Greek texts read that were accurately translated into this greatest of all Bibles. Those specific words are what God originally inspired and what He has preserved in history and now are found in the English translation known today as the King James Holy Bible.

You, on the other hand, “prefer” the ever changing Critical Text that most modern versions like the NASB, RSV, ESV, NIV are based on, but not even they are your “Final Authority”, are they Mr. Kutilek.

All your modern versions often reject these same Hebrew words in numerous places and can’t even agree among themselves. Want proof? Here it is:

http://brandplucked.webs.com/nivnasbrejecthebrew.htm

http://brandplucked.webs.com/nivnasbrejecthebrew2.htm

And your “critical text” based on what you call “the oldest and best manuscripts” is a pathetic joke that keeps changing its punch line with each new edition to come down the pike every few years.

http://brandplucked.webs.com/oldestandbestmss.htm

http://brandplucked.webs.com/scienceoftextcrit.htm



Instead, you have made YOURSELF your own final authority, and then have the hubris to include many others in your collective “WE”. Here are your own words:

Doug Kutilek reveals his own bible agnosticism in his article “Westcott & Hort vs. Textus Receptus: Which is Superior”. Westcott & Hort vs. Textus Receptus: Which is Superior?In this article Mr. Kutilek writes:

The defects of the Westcott-Hort text are also generally recognized, particularly its excessive reliance on manuscript B (Vaticanus), and to a lesser extent, Aleph (Sinaiticus). Hort declared the combined testimony of these two manuscripts to be all but a guarantee that a reading was original. All scholars today recognize this as being an extreme and unwarranted point of view. Manuscript B shows the same kinds of scribal errors found in all manuscripts, a fact to be recognized and such singular readings to be rejected...”

“What shall we say then? Which text shall we choose as superior? We shall choose neither the Westcott-Hort text (nor its modern kinsmen) nor the textus receptus (or the majority text) as our standard text, our text of last appeal. All these printed texts are compiled or edited texts, formed on the basis of the informed (or not-so-well-informed) opinions of fallible editors. Neither Erasmus nor Westcott and Hort (nor, need we say, any other text editor or group of editors) is omniscient or perfect in reasoning and judgment. Therefore, we refuse to be enslaved to the textual criticism opinions of either Erasmus or Westcott and Hort or for that matter any other scholars, whether Nestle, Aland, Metzger, Burgon, Hodges and Farstad, or anyone else. Rather, it is better to evaluate all variants in the text of the Greek New Testament on a reading by reading basis, that is, in those places where there are divergences in the manuscripts and between printed texts, the evidence for and against each reading should be thoroughly and carefully examined and weighed, and the arguments of the various schools of thought considered, and only then a judgment made.

We do, or should do, this very thing in reading commentaries and theology books. We hear the evidence, consider the arguments, weigh the options, and then arrive at what we believe to be the honest truth. Can one be faulted for doing the same regarding the variants in the Greek New Testament? Our aim is to know precisely what the Apostles originally did write, this and nothing more, this and nothing else. And, frankly, just as there are times when we must honestly say, "I simply do not know for certain what this Bible verse or passage means," there will be (and are) places in the Greek New Testament where the evidence is not clear cut, and the arguments of the various schools of thought do not distinctly favor one reading over another.

This means there will at times be a measure of uncertainty in defining precisely the exact wording of the Greek New Testament...”


In the same article, Mr. Kutilek criticizes various readings found in the King James Bible (and many others as well) in this manner. Pay close attention to the specific words he uses when he does this. He reveals his own biblical agnosticism by such statements as the following: "Returning to the specific texts, Westcott-Hort vs. the textus receptus: in truth, both texts necessarily fall short of presenting the true original. [Note- How does Mr. Kutilek know this? Does he have his own personal copy of "the true original" to compare them to? Of course not.] ...Additionally, in a number of places, the textus receptus reading is found in a limited number of late manuscripts, with little or no support from ancient translations. One of these readings is the famous I John 5:7. Such readings as this are also PRESUMPTIVELY NOT ORIGINAL...Besides these shortcomings, others also APPARENTLY occur in a number of places where a perceived difficulty in the original reading was altered by scribes in the manuscript copying process. PROBABLE EXAMPLES of this include Mark 1:2 (changing "Isaiah the prophet" to "the prophets," a change motivated by the fact that the quote which follows in 1:3 is from both Malachi and Isaiah), I Corinthians 6:20 (where the phrase "and in your Spirit which are God's" SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ADDED after the original "in your body," which is the subject under consideration in the preceding verses"(end of quotes from Doug Kutilek)

First of all, the obvious question should be asked: “Precisely, who is this WE you keep talking about, Mr. Kutilek? It certainly doesn’t include me nor thousands of other King James Bible believers alive today.

You obviously are of the opinion that ALL the editors and translators of ALL Bible translations out there got it wrong in many places too. In your view, is the NASB, RSV, ESV, NIV, NKJV, Holman Standard, NET or the Daffy Duck version the perfect and infallible words of God? Of couse not.

If, as you say “All these printed texts are compiled on the basis of opinions of fallible men and none of them is omniscient or perfect in reasoning and judgment”, doesn’t this then also include YOURSELF as well?!?!

Didn’t God in His sovereignty use “fallible and imperfect men” to give us the originals in the first place? We Bible believers do not look to the efforts of mere fallible and imperfect men to give us God’s pure words, but to the living God who is sovereign in history and faithful and true to keep His words in “the book of the LORD” till heaven and earth pass away.

Mr. Kutilek, I do not entertain any false hope that you will see the error of your ways in attacking this Book of Books (a.k.a. the King James Holy Bible) and upholding instead your own peculiar theories about how your alleged “Standard” are those non-existent, imaginary, fairy tale fantasies you refer to as “the originals”; but I want those who have ears to hear to recognize the utter vacuousness of your arguments and that your whole foundation for finding out “what God really said” is nothing more than vain speculation and empty air.

Bottom line. We King James Bible believers have “the book of the LORD” (Isaiah 34:16), and your Bible Agnostic side does not.

“Kept by the power of God through faith” 1 Peter 1:5

For many more articles from my site defending the King James Bible as the complete, inspired, preserved and 100% true words of God and the Standard by which all others are to be measured, go to -

http://brandplucked.webs.com/articles.htm

Will Kinney
 
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CoooCaw

Guest
#4
very impressive

when you want people to discount an idea, you set up an obvious straw man to tear down and hope they do not notice you did a switch on them


the real issue was never about the KJV but about the underlying manuscripts - it has nothing to do with Adventist pet dogmas
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#5
very impressive

when you want people to discount an idea, you set up an obvious straw man to tear down and hope they do not notice you did a switch on them

the real issue was never about the KJV but about the underlying manuscripts - it has nothing to do with Adventist pet dogmas
The "real issue was never about the KJV"?

Our bro
ther ChosenbyHim calls the issue of Saviour vs. Savior "a very serious one". The Greek for Saviour is σωτήρ which is only 5 letters, so what do the "underlying manuscripts" have to do with the "very serious" Saviour vs. Savior issue? Don't you take the KJV seriously?

And the second thing that was mainly being discussed in that other thread was the fact that in Bible Numerics, the number seven means completion, purity, and spiritual perfection. And that the number 6 is the number of man.

So the word Saviour (7 letters) means we a have a perfect Saviour. And Savior (6 letters) could be a reference to anyone. Remember 7 is the number of completion and perfection. 6 is the number of man. So concerning this change, in Bible Numerology it is a very serious one.

Therefore, my convictions regarding this difference remains firm. And a lot of the other Bible believing brethren also have conviction about this.
 
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CoooCaw

Guest
#6
I take the Word of God seriously as written in the Greek and the Hebrew