Difference between God and Jesus

[Quickfire]

You did not seem to mind pushing Phil around. Why don't you see if you can push me around. I detest a bully. Your arguments a shallow and baseless representing a complete disregard for the integrity of the text. Perhaps Phil won't mind sitting this one out.

please dont be calling sila a bully that not nice,

 

[silas42]

Yes or no.

I will respond to your Hebrews1:8, that's it.
But I will tell you this, those led of the Holy Spirit don't usually join in these debates, those led of the min d of man do

Once I have responded, I want you to them immediately answer a question of mine
Please give me a plain verse of scripture that states we must believe Christ to be the one true God Himself to be saved, for that is all I joined this debate for
Give me a couple of minutes

 

[Quickfire]

@sila42 best thing you can do is reply tomorrow the blood hunters are here

 

[Quickfire]

im logging out see you tomoz

 

[silas42]

Yes or no.

[SUP] [/SUP]But about the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[SUP][e]


We all know Christ has the title God, but not the one true God
As the Father confirms in verse 9, he is still the Son's God

Can you tell me who the one true omnipotent God must refer to as 'My God' I know of no such person

Now I have answered your question, please give me a verse of scripurte that plainly states we must believe Christ is the one true God to be saved[/SUP]

 

[silas42]

@sila42 best thing you can do is reply tomorrow the blood hunters are here

You're right, I'll leave it at that for today, I've been at this for hours anyway
God Bless

 

[Godslyric]

This was a subject that engulfed my days and nights for 3 years. I looked into Arianism and Athanasius and the Church politics of that time, and also prayed my butt off for some answers...This was, and is an extremely volatile subject, and I think it needs to be answered in terms of humility, meaning no human is going to find the answers to this, in this lifetime anyway...And if any of us knows Gods mind (witch we dont, other then in part) we all need to be praying to that man, but their was only one Christ, and its none of us...If you pull out all the verses in scripture that lean toward one side of the argument, and all the verses that lean toward the other, you end up with 2 doctrines that are both backed by scripture...Now what? We can say compiling verse is a devicive way to bolster an argument, but what else can you do? other then to humble ourselves to the fact that mans interpitations of Gods Mind are just plain childish at best...Thats why Christ point us away from doctrine through His assault on the jewish scholars of his time, and points us to Humility...I believe He's saying to find our place as little children, and learn how to be Humble...We all have the right to embrace Christ in the manner He puts before us. He shows me one thing through my life experience and shows you another...Id like to know what He showed you! but how can I if I am to wrapped up in my own reflection, and yielding to my own knowledge?...Just imagine christendom united under one umbrella of Humility...The world wouldn't stand a chance...Peace, no offense meant ...Great thread...

 

[oldhermit]

But about the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[SUP][e]


We all know Christ has the title God, but not the one true God
As the Father confirms in verse 9, he is still the Son's God

Can you tell me who the one true omnipotent God must refer to as 'My God' I know of no such person

Now I have answered your question, please give me a verse of scripurte that plainly states we must believe Christ is the one true God to be saved[/SUP]

You have not even begun to answer that question. Since the Father addresses Jesus as God, what do you believe are the implications of this nominative / vocative address? If he is God what does that mean?

The answer to you question is 1Jn. 5:20. "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

 

[Equuas]

Hi silas42 I have heard many pasters and every single one of them teach that you have to believe that Jesus is God to be saved. Every Christian that I know believes this. HEknowsme did an excellent job in post #567 the verses that show him to be God.

 

[resurrection33]

ok it's like this.. it's God in different administrations but it was the FULLNESS of God in JESUS when he dwell in him that is why it said "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." John 14:7 RSV

I think they are the same person. Otherwise we have two Lords, it would seem to me, and I don't believe for a second we have two Lords.

 

[resurrection33]

I am just asking you to explain, did Jesus exist only at his conception, this is what you hint at, yet do not explain? who is the Holy Spirit that he indwells Jesus and where is God when this happens?

Its very easy to make a comment, resurrection33 made one a minute ago, but I also know he doesn't even believe in scripture, well only the red letters.

Phil, God is not a book.

 

[WeStand]

Deary me their all crawling out of the woodwork now.

PSALMS 2

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD,and against his anointed, saying, (Phil, you say that you minister; I assume you know the anointed ONE.)

Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potters vessel.

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Serve the LORD with fear/reverence , and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are ALL they that put their trust in him.​

 

[jb]

If you have scripture where the Father states Christ is the one true God please bring it forth...

1John 5v20: "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Whatever way you look at it, the Lord Jesus, is God the Son, the True God, even as the Father is also addressed as the True God! John 17v3

You people who deny that Christ is God the Son the 2nd Person of the Trinity have LONG been rejected as destructive heretics by the Church and the Scriptures (2Pet 2v1-3, 1John 4v1-6), this is a fact of Church history!

The Messiah that the Jews looked for and expected was God manifest in the flesh coming from the lineage of David, He Who is the Mighty God (which is an exclusive title of Yahweh, Isaiah 10v20,21), God with us! Isaiah 7v14, 9v6,7, Luke 3v23-32, Rom 1v3,4, Rev 22v16

 

[oldhermit]

please dont be calling sila a bully that not nice,

Perhaps you are right but, when he kept pushing Phil demanding and answer to his question, I simply turned the question around on him and he ignored me. I asked him three time and he continued to ignore me. I figured what is good for him was good for me. If he does not like being treated that way then perhaps he should not treat others that way.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think part of the problem... maybe a big part of the problem... is the ambiguity of the term GOD, that no one seems to want to address. GOD refers to both a nature and a being; it refers to both the father (the one true GOD) and the godhead (the one true GOD and Jesus Christ whom he sent). Christ's role on earth was to completely honor the father. So it would have been pointless and against his very nature to glorify himself. So when he spoke of GOD, he didn't speak of the godhead, he spoke of the father, the one true GOD. And he called him both GOD and the father.

For this reason I think it is wrong to state that Jesus isn't GOD, and also wrong to state that Jesus is the one true GOD. I didn't see it before silas pointed it out to me, but Jesus is not the one true GOD. He would not be able to do anything for us if he first didn't receive it from the father, the one true GOD. Nevertheless, he is GOD because he is the only visible representation of GOD, and the mouth through which he speaks. GOD is his spirit; they are one.

I think this ambiguity exists in this verse:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2
​

IMO, the Greek does not distinguish between GOD the person and GOD the godhead. If it did, I believe it might say something like this syncretism of Greek and Hebrew:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with El, and the logos was Elohim. The same was in the beginning with El. John 1:1-2
​

And just a note about the term GOD the son. This phrase is nonsensical because GOD cannot refer to either the father (father the son) or the nature of GOD. The latter case would be like saying man the son, for the son of man. Ridiculous.

 

[oldhermit]

I think part of the problem... maybe a big part of the problem... is the ambiguity of the term GOD, that no one seems to want to address. GOD refers to both a nature and a being; it refers to both the father (the one true GOD) and the godhead (the one true GOD and Jesus Christ whom he sent). Christ's role on earth was to completely honor the father. So it would have been pointless and against his very nature to glorify himself. So when he spoke of GOD, he didn't speak of the godhead, he spoke of the father, the one true GOD. And he called him both GOD and the father.

For this reason I think it is wrong to state that Jesus isn't GOD, and also wrong to state that Jesus is the one true GOD. I didn't see it before silas pointed it out to me, but Jesus is not the one true GOD. He would not be able to do anything for us if he first didn't receive it from the father, the one true GOD. Nevertheless, he is GOD because he is the only visible representation of GOD, and the mouth through which he speaks. GOD is his spirit; they are one.

I think this ambiguity exists in this verse:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2
​

IMO, the Greek does not distinguish between GOD the person and GOD the godhead. If it did, I believe it might say something like this syncretism of Greek and Hebrew:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with El, and the logos was Elohim. The same was in the beginning with El. John 1:1-2
​

And just a note about the term GOD the son. This phrase is nonsensical because GOD cannot refer to either the father (father the son) or the nature of GOD. The latter case would be like saying man the son, for the son of man. Ridiculous.

You are absolutely correct. Perhaps we could discuss this at some point together.

 

[phil36]

Herosefrom the dead

I think this ambiguity exists in this verse:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2​

IMO, the Greek does not distinguish between GOD the person and GOD the godhead. If it did, I believe it might say something like this syncretism of Greek and Hebrew:

In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with El, and the logos was Elohim. The same was in the beginning with El. John 1:1-2​

So in order you to be right and for silas to be right, you would need to re-write scripture. Very good.

what next.

 

[oldhermit]

So in order you to be right and for silas to be right, you would need to re-write scripture. Very good.

what next.

I think the main point he is getting at is how we understand the term "God" itself. He is quite right in suggesting this gets to the very heart of the issue.

 

[silas42]

You have not even begun to answer that question. Since the Father addresses Jesus as God, what do you believe are the implications of this nominative / vocative address? If he is God what does that mean?

The answer to you question is 1Jn. 5:20. "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Well I thought I'd drop by before I retire for the night, and I'm disappointed to say the least.
Firstly those to whom the word came in the OT were referred to as god's, but Christ is the only begotten Son of God. I'm afraid you've ignored my question as to the Father confirming He is Christ's God, that is plainly written, and therefore you haven't replied to who is the God of the one true God.
Regarding 1John 5:20 we know of course Christ has stated there is only one true God, the Father, so John would not contradict his own words in his Gospel. The references to 'true God' refers to the Father as can easily be read. God(the Father) is the true God(as Christ himself plainly stated) And the true God gives us eternal; life through His Son. The verse does not say Jesus is the one true God. I am afraid you are not doing very well here, despite your earlier belligerence.
Neither have you addressed my question and given me a scripture that plainly states we must believe Christ is the one true God to be saved, probably because there isn't one
I accept you like to look into scripture deeply and study it as such, probably far more than Phil, but the result is twofold the same. You simply end up contradicting the plain word and are reticent to answer questions put to you
Jesus said
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. Luke10:21

But to accept that would be difficult for some of you who simply revel in studying theology

A little child can understand the Gospel, and it is not written in scripture you must believe Christ is the one true God to inherit eternal life. But I guess that is nice for you and Phil because it enables you to do what means the most to you, theologise it!

I'm afraid I have already spent hours today discussing with someone who refused to respond to my questions, it appears you are the same, so I will end this conversation
I must say though, I was very surprised that Kenysis believed Heb1:8 was the 'silver bullet' so to speak, I have much admiration for a lot of what he writes, it is a very weak verse to bring forth in view of verse 9
Anyway, thanks for the short discourse, I'll leave you to froth at the mouth a wee bit concerning me. Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but you have been rather rude
But remember, if you rely on yourself to learn, you won't get far, and like Phil and some others you may just end up condemning people for standing on the words of Christ when he walked this earth

 

[phil36]

Hi oldhermit and her oes from the dead. My eyes just glued to the last bit. But I do agree that understanding 'the term God.. gets to the heart of the issue. I've had a long day.