Difference between God and Jesus

[silas42]

It is quite clear from John 1:1-14 that the Word is not a thing but a person of God who places himself within the confines of the flesh.

There can be no stronger passage confirming the deity of Jesus than John 1:1. Simply diagraming the sentance renders this fact
incortavertable. θεὸς is the predicate nomnative that defines the subject λόγος. THE WORD WAS GOD!
What ever else one may or may not understand about Jesus, it is undeniably confirmed by John that HE is the Word who was from the beginning, He is the Word who was with God, HE is the Word who is the Creator of the world, HE is the Word who became flesh, HE is the Word who explained God to man, and He is the Word who IS GOD.

As to whether or not the Word is a person rather than just the speech, divine utterance, or analogy is laid to rest in verse 2. ουτος
ην εν αρχη προς τον θεον.

The ουτος is masculine gender - He or this one. If the λόγος was simply an abstract it would have to read τοῦτο rather than ουτος.

Through out the entire text of John 1 the personal pronoun is repeatedly applied to the Word. He is never referred to as 'it'. The Word is the Subject. Notice:

Verse 2. οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ - HE was in the beginning.
V.3 - πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο - all things through HIM came into being.
V.3 - χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἓν ὃ γέγονεν - Through HIM came into being nothing that came into being.
V.4 - ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, - In HIM life was.
V.10 - ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν - In the world HE was
V.10 - καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο - And the world through HIM was made or came into being.
V.10 - καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω. - And the world HIM not knew.
V.11 - εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν - To the own HE came
V.11 - καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον. - And the own HIM not received.
V.12 - ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτὸν - As many as however received HIM.
V.12 - τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αυτοῦ, - To those that believe on the name of HIM.
V,14 - καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, - And we beheld the glory of HIM

"He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

What were they to believe about Jesus in order to become children of God? EVERY THING THAT JOHN HAS JUST SAID ABOUT JESUS. This is everything that you deny about Jesus. Which category of verses 11 and 12 do you think this places you?

I have noticed that when someone cannot answer the issue of an argument, one of the first things they do is attack the education level of the other person.[/QUOTE]

You want to speak of what John wrote? OK

No man hath seen God at anytime
John1:18
No man hath seen God at anytime
1John 4:12

The Father is greater than I
John 14:28
The Father is greater than all
John 10:29

Now this is eternal life(note what eternal life hinges on believing) that they may know you(the Father) the only TRUE God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3

If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God
1John 4:15


I think that's enough don't you. I've given you the plain scripture, you obviously have none to give me, only your human reasoning. This discussion is over, but thank you for your time

 

[Quickfire]

I'm watching out for the vultures, sorry, I meant crows, slip of the fingers

I know us worms need protecting lol ill think il sleep in tomorrow , i dont want to be an early birds breakast. i say stone those crows

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is exactly what I am talking about. This is NOT what the Greek says. You are having to defy the language of the grammar to defend your argument.

ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.
In the Son of him Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and life eternal.

Jesus is the antecedent of οὗτός. The grammar could not possibly be clearer.

Couldn't the true one be the antecedent of οὗτός? It seems to me that the phrase 'in his son Jesus Christ' is simply a qualifying phrase for being in the true one.

 

[silas42]

"He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

e

I'll just post this, but am not open to discussing it further for as you know, it is not what I am here debating, which is solely salvational belief, but as you posted it, I'll kindly respond


No one has seen God at anytime


But


[SUP] [/SUP]Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up [SUP]10 [/SUP]and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Ex24:9-11


David was an Israelite

The Lord said to MY LORD sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet
Psalm110:1

So was Elizabeth

Why am I so favoured that the mother of MY LORD should come to visit me
Luke1:43

So was Thomas

My Lord and my God
John 20:28

Christ did not rebuke Thomas for saying that but only three chapters earlier had stated only the Father was the one TRUE God

All roads lead to Rome so to speak

 

[oldhermit]

You want to speak of what John wrote? OK
No man hath seen God at anytime
John1:18
No man hath seen God at anytime
1John 4:12

The Father is greater than I
John 14:28
The Father is greater than all
John 10:29

Now this is eternal life(note what eternal life hinges on believing) that they may know you(the Father) the only TRUE God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3

If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God
1John 4:15

I think that's enough don't you. I've given you the plain scripture, you obviously have none to give me, only your human reasoning. This discussion is over, but thank you for your time.

Since Silas no longer wishes to discuss this topic with me, I shall at least address his first text of John 1:18 for anyone else who would care to examine that text.

In John 1:18, John says, “noman has seen God at anytime. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” The word ἑώthat is translated here as ‘seen’ in most of the English translations is thirdperson singular of ὁά which, according to Thayer, has three basic definitions. First, it means to see with the eyes. Secondly, it means to see with the mind, to know, to perceive.Thirdly, it means to become acquainted with throughpragmaticexperience. (The1981 New Thayer’sGreek English Lexicon, p 451).

If John is arguing from the first definition, this needs to be understood in the light of pragmatic Old Testament examples. We know from the many examples of theophonic manifestations in the Old Testament that God has repeatedly presented himself to man in a number of ways. At times, God availed himself only to man’s auditory senses. He spoke to Adam, to Cain, to Noah, to the Hebrew patriarchs, to Moses, to the prophets, and to others. Sometimes he visited himself upon man in the form of dreams or visions as to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter six. Other times, he appears as objects such as the cloud or the pillar of fire that went before Israel in the wilderness. Still, there are other times when he visited man in human form. There are some eight accounts of this type of theophany found in the Old Testament.

The word ‘theophany’ is derived from two Greek words, ὸ meaning God and ήmeaning sound or voice. A theophany then is a hearing of the voice of God. Theophonic experiences in scripture assume many forms, yet all seem to have a singular function. They communicate the will of God to man. They provide man with a point of reference that man can comprehend. In so doing, God is demonstrating compassion for the limitations of the human mind to understand things that are beyond his ability to comprehend. In some theophonic experiences, God will accommodate only man’s sense of hearing. One only heard the voice of God. God speaking to Noah in Genesis 6 is just such an example. Another is Genesis 12 where God spoke to Abraham. Sometimes, these theophanies would be accompanied by some type of material phenomenon such as fire, wind, or earthquake as in the cases of Moses in Exodus 3, the nation of Israel in Exodus 13 and Elijah in 1Kings 19. Each of these accompanying natural phenomena would appeal to a broader range of physical senses as God sometimes chose to speak in these things. Still, at other times, God chose to assume an anthropomorphic form as in Genesis 18 when he appeared to Abraham in the company of two angels, all in human form.For further reference, one might examine these examples of anthropomorphic theophanies. What appears in each of these is the repeated phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” 22:15-18; 31:11-13; 48:15-16, Joshua 5:13-15, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:15-23.

The apostle Paul points out in 1Corinthians 10:1-4 that Jesus was the Rock who followed Israel through the desert. Therefore, scripture shows us that man has after a limited fashion, experienced God in varying degrees at the sensory level. He has seen and heard God. However, if what John is talking about in verse eighteen is experiencing the essence of God, it is certainly true that man has never looked upon the unshielded essence of the Almighty. Of all men, Moses seems to have been granted the most intimate privilege of experiencing the presence of God in his essence. In Exodus chapters 33 and 34, God allows all of his goodness to pass before Moses while shielding him in a rock and covering him with his hand. After God had passed by and declared the name of Jehovah, he then removed his hand and the text says that Moses was allowed to see his back or hind
parts. Perhaps more properly, he saw what was behind him. The LXX translation of this text reads καὶότεὄψειὰὀπίσωμου – “and then you see the back, behind, or after me.” The ὀπίσω does not refer to anything anthropomorphic but suggests the element of time. Moses would see only where God had been after he had passed by.

If ἑώis understood as an intellectual limitation, this would seem to fit better with the closing statement of this prologue. “He has explained him.” The Greek word ἐή is third person singular aorist first indicative active of ἐέ meaning to detail, to set forth in language, to make known or to reveal (George V. Wagram’s Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 1983). This is the etymology of our word to ‘exegete’. In other words, “No man has understood or comprehended God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has EXPLAINED him.” The Logos presents God to the mind of man through the medium of human language in such a way that man is now able to understand something of the nature and character of God that he could never know from his observation of the natural world. Only the one who came out of the very presence of God could have done this.

In the 1980 printing of The Expositors Greek Testament on the gospel of John p 692, the expositor makes an interesting observation in contrast to Meyer. He says that ἐήrefers to the “work” which Christ accomplished while he was on earth. This emphasizes a particular function of the Second Position. Having come from this eternal intimate relationship with the Father, he is thus “equipped” to translate the mind of God to the mind of man. The linking of these two minds is intended to create an isomorphic state of thinking. As we see in verses 10-12, this response on the part of man would be both positive and negative. As man begins the process of learning to think and reason as God, he will learn to re-symbolize his relationship both to God and to the natural world. He will have to learn to think differently, to speak differently, and to behave differently. Reality will take on a new definition. This would not be met favorably among the majority of humanity, not in that generation nor in this one.

 

[Quickfire]

Amen brothers and sisters amen together we stand divided we fall And i sense the enemy has been squashed tonight, victory blessings to everyone may peace be with you all Dear heavenly father bring peace upon this topic, Forever an ever amen.

 

[silas42]

Amen brothers and sisters amen together we stand divided we fall And i sense the enemy has been squashed tonight, victory blessings to everyone may peace be with you all Dear heavenly father bring peace upon this topic, Forever an ever amen.

God Bless you Quickfire, and thank you for your posts

 

[GreenNnice]

Here is response to your contention verse, John 17:3 , brothersile,

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

This a verse you say is to 'support your belief.'

and, I AGREE, we don't need to judge others (we should not), there own words condemn them is what Scripture tells us. WE are NOT to judge , and, your not believing that Jesus is God, to me, anyway, simply says that brothers and sisters in Christ need to let His Spirit lead there's (which is in Him ) in Love to show you 'The Way.'

And, here is a previous post I made that was not responded to, which I've left in it's entirety. Please respond back , TY

This was never answered, brother sile . Who is the Son bringing glory to in this passage of 1 John ? Doesn't He say Himself? So, who is 'Himself?'
It has got to be the one true God, Jesus is speaking of Himself bringing glory to, and, He is speaking of God.

Therefore, Jesus is saying that He is God WE ARE ONLY TO BRING GLORY TO GOD

 

[GreenNnice]

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


All glory goes to who, brothersile ? God. Therefore, who is this Jesus, this one who was born in a stable, who came from Holy Spirit seed to Earth from God. When Mary stared into baby Jesus face, she was staring at the one true God, who we are ONLY to give all the glory to.

FATHER, GLORIFY me .



IF this is true from Scripture and it is, then , Jesus is asking something done that is blasphemous to God. But, we know that is not true, don't we, Jesus was telling us that He is the God of the universe, the one true living God of all time who is to be given ALL the glory

GLORIFY YOUR SON, SO THAT YOUR SON MAY GLORIFY YOU.


God is talking to God, LOL, He is TALKING TO HIMSELF, He is showing us plain as day that He is the one true God, that the Son is, indeed, God, one and only, One. Him. "In the beginning, God...." Jesus was not called 'Jesus' until Matthew 1:21 but He was, indeed, with God before the world began and He is, indeed, God. "In the beginning, God...."


"Whatever you do, give ALL the glory to God."


"Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor
rests." ... Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will. ...


NOT, glory to Jesus ! Glory to God

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When Mary stared into baby Jesus face, she was staring at the one true God, who we are ONLY to give all the glory to.

I don't think Jesus would agree with you. He emptied himself and gave glory only to the father, the one true GOD. That was his mission; not to direct worship to himself, but to the father. Yes, Jesus is GOD, but he is not the one true GOD. That glory and honor is reserved only for the father forever and ever. Amen.

 

[silas42]

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


All glory goes to who, brothersile ? God. Therefore, who is this Jesus, this one who was born in a stable, who came from Holy Spirit seed to Earth from God. When Mary stared into baby Jesus face, she was staring at the one true God, who we are ONLY to give all the glory to.

FATHER, GLORIFY me .



IF this is true from Scripture and it is, then , Jesus is asking something done that is blasphemous to God. But, we know that is not true, don't we, Jesus was telling us that He is the God of the universe, the one true living God of all time who is to be given ALL the glory

How many conversations d'you think I can follow at a time? I'm no spring chicken ya know

I don't think I need to respond here, you have just been given a brilliant response IMHO

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't think I need to respond here, you have just been given a brilliant response IMHO

It is something I have seen for a very long time. Your insight removed a hindrance that brought everything into sharper focus. Thank you so much...

 

[silas42]

It is something I have seen for a very long time. Your insight removed a hindrance that brought everything into sharper focus. Thank you so much...

Thank you for your kind and Gracious words
Please be assured I have learnt and benefitted much from the insight you have shown in many of your posts.

But whatever we do know(and we know now only in part) it is because God in his great kindness, has shown us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hoffco]

To,. HeRoseFromtheDead, You said, "I believe that GOD is one being in 3 distinct, co-existent states of being." SO, you believe in the trinity.? but you did not say, co-equal. I am not sure what you believe. The Athanasian creed is very clear on the Bible teaching on the trinity. Do you believe it? Hoffco

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

To,. HeRoseFromtheDead, You said, "I believe that GOD is one being in 3 distinct, co-existent states of being." SO, you believe in the trinity.? but you did not say, co-equal. I am not sure what you believe. The Athanasian creed is very clear on the Bible teaching on the trinity. Do you believe it? Hoffco

I think the concept of GOD being 3 distinct persons is bizarre. Pagan. The three parts of the godhead are equal in nature, but not equal in authority (the father is obviously greater than the son).

 

[Hoffco]

To josh, when you speak, I want to hear what you think, not what some spirit says thru you, that may be an evil spirit sent by God to confuse you because you are not willing to hear the Word of God the Bible. Do you believe the Bible is all God's words to us for this age? Or do you believe you get personal message from a spirit which contradicts what the Bible says? If you have a demon speaking to you, beware. always test the spirit by asking them ,Has "Jesus Christ come in the flesh" "...who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1Jh.4:2 & 5:5 Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Sooo, HeRoseFromTheDead, Do you agree with the Athanasian creed. Hoffco

 

[silas42]

“The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. [SUP]25 [/SUP]It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
Matt10:24&25

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sooo, HeRoseFromTheDead, Do you agree with the Athanasian creed. Hoffco

I have no idea what that is...

 

[Bryancampbell]

I think the concept of GOD being 3 distinct persons is bizarre. Pagan. The three parts of the godhead are equal in nature, but not equal in authority (the father is obviously greater than the son).

This is where you do a face palm....trinity means three persons with the same nature but different attributes and authority......I think trinity should be taught more, these believers are calling it pagan yet they are ignorant of it. I would be horrified to call something pagan to later find it that saying that was blasphemous...