Difference between God and Jesus

[XianCatalyst]

Jesus is not the one true God. That's NOT what the trinity doctrine says. It says together and separate.

The Bible, authored by God notes them as different. The "together" thing is a conversation to be held "to the side of the message". All you need to know is Jesus' sacrifice reversed the curse, and welcomed you home. So now you can stop hiding in the bushes like Adam because of your sin, and consider yourself pure, and walk home to Him, who will clean you and make you whole again, as the prodigal story showed us.

When you start trying to think of all three aspects of the trinity as one, you start confusing the message. To change your view other than how it is written (as individually noted aspects) you try to change how it's perceived. God wrote it as He did for a reason. Why don't we just trust Him and stop arguing semantics.

 

[phil36]

No, the holy spirit is not a person. What a bizarre thing to say. A person by definition has a body, and spirit by definition does not have a body.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Luke 24:39
​

This is a good question and indeed a mystery. The way I see it is the holy spirit emanates from the holiest place where the one true GOD dwells in order to interact with his creation. The one true GOD cannot interact with his creation directly because he is much, much too holy. Thus the holy spirit. That is why the one true GOD remains separated from us, and can only interact with us through holy spirit, until the time when Christ overthrows all sin and rebellion.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Revelation 21:2-3
​

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, has a will, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).

Some cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses say that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than a force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is false. If the Holy Spirit were merely a force, then He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11).
The truth is that the Holy Spirit is a person the same as the Father and the Son are within the Trinity. (carm.org)





The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13.The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity different from both the Father, and the Son. As the Father and Jesus make this distinction when speaking of Him. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. (letusreason.org)

 

[silas42]

Jesus is not the one true God. That's NOT what the trinity doctrine says. It says together and separate.

The Bible, authored by God notes them as different. The "together" thing is a conversation to be held "to the side of the message". All you need to know is Jesus' sacrifice reversed the curse, and welcomed you home. So now you can stop hiding in the bushes like Adam because of your sin, and consider yourself pure, and walk home to Him, who will clean you and make you whole again, as the prodigal story showed us.

When you start trying to think of all three aspects of the trinity as one, you start confusing the message. To change your view other than how it is written (as individually noted aspects) you try to change how it's perceived. God wrote it as He did for a reason. Why don't we just trust Him and stop arguing semantics.

This is probably the best post I have read in this thread~(and the line ministers tend to follow). However, it does mean there is differing opinions among Trinitarians themselves, for many seem to emphatically state Christ is the one true God.

 

[phil36]

Jesus is not the one true God. That's NOT what the trinity doctrine says. It says together and separate.

The Bible, authored by God notes them as different. The "together" thing is a conversation to be held "to the side of the message". All you need to know is Jesus' sacrifice reversed the curse, and welcomed you home. So now you can stop hiding in the bushes like Adam because of your sin, and consider yourself pure, and walk home to Him, who will clean you and make you whole again, as the prodigal story showed us.

When you start trying to think of all three aspects of the trinity as one, you start confusing the message. To change your view other than how it is written (as individually noted aspects) you try to change how it's perceived. God wrote it as He did for a reason. Why don't we just trust Him and stop arguing semantics.

That s not the Trinitarian view.. 'together' is a conversation in the sidelines?? where on earth did you get that from

And the very fact that silas likes it will tell you it is not Trinitarian.. it is not orthodox.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Interesting. I'm not saying that word to be snide either, just, it's interesting, your answer to me above. But why not put the flag of the country you are from? Whatever, anyway, risenfromdead, that's between you and God how you portray who you are nationality-wise. I was just pointing that out, LOL, it is conceived because you have that flag, and, now, though, the perception has changed, thanks for explaining, the Lord leads.

"...you follow Me." John 21:22

btw the country is Vanuatu. Christianity is the predominant religion.

 

[GreenNnice]

Lets see just how spiritually discerning you can be. Christ has the nature of God. The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ, he is the exact representation of the Father, he reveals the Father to us, there is no way to the Father but by the Son, and Christ died for our sins on the cross. If we repent of our sin and ask him into our lives as Lord and Saviour, believing he is the only begotten Son of God, born of the virgin Mary, conceived by the Spirit, we are saved

Now a very simple question
Is that salvational belief according to you, or is something missing?
And if something is missing, what is it?

That's right, I already said that the salvational issue, maybe, of some, is not with me. I already said our own beliefs condemn us, either they are of belief in Him, by grace, through faith saved, or, not.

-------------------

Now, why is it montotonus?

I have pointed out several things from your verse that supports your belief in Jesus not being God, showing that belief misunderstood. Notice I am not juding you, I'm just saying you don't understand that God can ONLY be given all the glory, AND, if the Son is ASKING God (His Father) to glorify Him (which He does) then that is cluing you in to something: Jesus, IF He is asking for glory from God, then, He is either blasphemous being OR Jesus IS the one true God
It can be NO other way. So, which is it? God does not give glory to His Son because of His Love for Him, don't be silly, that's NOT in Scripture, brothersile


Second, I pointed out from John 21:22 , that Jesus puts Himself UNDER the authority of His Father in heaven while on Earth, doing His will. NOT His own will. We see this in many places, which I pointed out one of post #766 being Peter talking to Jesus and Jesus telling Peter that He was in control of the VERY life and death of mankind .

Another place that we get this reinforced dramatically is when Jesus is praying in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus says, as He 'sweats drops of blood,' this: Take this cup from me, Father, but, not my will but thy be done.'


Jesus has put Himself under the complete authority of Father God in heaven. It never says in Scripture either that Jesus IS under God's authority in heaven. No, it says that Jesus has PUT HIMSELF UNDER God's authority, and, this, too, tells you, brothersile, the revelation and power of who Jesus Christ REALLY is. He is God, in the flesh. Almighty God

Do you see the power of God in Jesus' words here, brothersile ?

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

This is NOT Jesus saying He IS under God's control, it IS Jesus saying He PUT HIMSELF under God's control, or, authority, having come to DO THE WILL "of Him who sent Me."

---------------------

The Lord leads, I don't want to be sounding monotonous to you though, brothersile. I admit, I mix up my words sometimes and am not so concise in my thoughts sometimes when I could do better, but I will continue, as He leads me, and, I pray that you just follow Him, brothersile. My words are just that, 'words,' but God will speak to your heart as He in you leads.

I'm going to go for the day, but, I will come back later tonight and I will read what you've posted of response to post #766 and I will give you a heartfelt response from God who is in my heart, and, I tell you this, from my own experiences believing God was not Jesus, for a short span of my life, at least, questioning it, I don't want to say, not believe, I just was never challenged with that idea before of Jesus being the SAME as God, and, the Holy Spirit I did not even know was more than in a song and someone who was with me but not really personally understood, until 2000 when I got baptized with water and then that same night, unbeknownst to me, some folks from a different church, would come up to me and baptize me in Holy Spirit fire

Changed me, brothersile, that 2000 year day. I live with a whole different understanding of who the Holy Spirit is in my life, from that day on. And with His grace and mercy too and Love, and, I pray that through all my posts ,here and everywhere, SHOW His Love speaking through me.

 

[GreenNnice]

btw the country is Vanuatu. Christianity is the predominant religion.

Great, God bless ya, risenfromdead, for following Jesus.

"...you follow Me." Let His Spirit help, lead you, in going 'this' way in life

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13.The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity different from both the Father, and the Son. As the Father and Jesus make this distinction when speaking of Him. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. (letusreason.org)

The holy spirit is also referred to as it, a dove, flames of fire, eyes, wind ...

Regarding the holy spirit saying "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;", the holy spirit only speaks what it hears from GOD. In other words, it speaks on behalf of GOD, not itself.

But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and will proclaim it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he takes from what is mine and will proclaim it to you. John 16:13-15
​

 

[phil36]

The holy spirit is also referred to as it, a dove, flames of fire, eyes, wind ...

Regarding the holy spirit saying "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;", the holy spirit only speaks what it hears from GOD. In other words, it speaks on behalf of GOD, not itself.

But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and will proclaim it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he takes from what is mine and will proclaim it to you. John 16:13-15
​

I think you are missing the point..

Actual just to correct you.. the dove was a similitude

 

[silas42]

That's right, I already said that the salvational issue, maybe, of some, is not with me. I already said our own beliefs condemn us, either they are of belief in Him, by grace, through faith saved, or, not.

-------------------

Now, why is it montotonus?

I have pointed out several things from your verse that supports your belief in Jesus not being God, showing that belief misunderstood. Notice I am not juding you, I'm just saying you don't understand that God can ONLY be given all the glory, AND, if the Son is ASKING God (His Father) to glorify Him (which He does) then that is cluing you in to something: Jesus, IF He is asking for glory from God, then, He is either blasphemous being OR Jesus IS the one true God
It can be NO other way. So, which is it? God does not give glory to His Son because of His Love for Him, don't be silly, that's NOT in Scripture, brothersile







---------------------

Well firstly I'll have to apologise, but I've been at this so much lately I don't feel I can respond to all you wrote, I apologise, I think shorter posts would have to be in order. Firstly, you did not confirm whether you believed what I wrote was acceptable salvational belief or not, that gives me slight concern, for you kinda said to me what I'll now have to say back(or something similar) It leads me to wonder whether you are that confident to say either way. We do need to be sure in our own mind what is and what is not salvational belief, maybe you'll come back and give me your definite opinion. Though I am grateful you do not lay the demands on people for Christianity that some do that are not demanded in scripture

But I will, as you keep bringing it up address the point of Christ having glory. You say this cannot happen because the Father loves the Son, I beg to differ

The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. John3:35

Now that's a very short verse, but let me elaborate. Because the Father loves the Son everything has been placed in his hands. The Son reigns in Heaven and on earth, right now, because the Father loves the Son and has put everything under his feet, that's what it plainly states. It does not say Christ reigns now because he is the one true God, but the Son has received all authority from the Father and reigns because the Father loves him.

Now, if Christ is reigning now, he is going to receive glory, kinda stands to reason, this simply follows on, the Father wants this for His Son because he loves him. But, he is not receiving glory as the one true God, only the Father is titled as such as Christ himself stated

Makes sense to me, but I know it won't to you. But as you don't demand non biblical beliefs for salvation, can't we just leave it here, Green nice, I got enough on my plate here already, I'm only interested in one debate, and that does not apply to you and me, because you ]haven't made demands for Christianity that are not demanded in scripturte(it seems to me)

 

[GreenNnice]

There is only one God, but He consists of three distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The word “trinity” is not found in Scripture. It is a word used by Christians to express the doctrine of the unity of God as consisting of three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Greek word trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Latin trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine.
The propositions involved in the doctrine are these:

1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30).
   
2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
   
3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. (John 20:30-31)
   
4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

Notice the use of the words “us” and “our” when the Son of God (“The Word”) created Man (Gen. 1:26).
Although equal in divinity, the Father is in a position of authority or hierarchy over Jesus Christ, incarnate Son of God (John 14:28, 13:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Phil. 2:6-8).

Ok, that's my last posttil tonight, I must go do some work of the Lord's for me in this sinful fallen world that is good for me to do , but, what do you mean 'confusing,' xianconsult? This makes no sense. By making Jesus seperate from God in being you are the one who confuses things, brother

Who are you woshipping? Jesus or God ? You are worshipping one or the other, can't be both, with your way of viewing the Deity? It's Deity 'plural' too for you, but not for me, it's VERY simple: Deity . And, that Deity= God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, who are One

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Actual just to correct you.. the dove was a similitude

Except for it, they are all similitudes.

 

[phil36]

so you are basing your ides on what 'IT'

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

so you are basing your ides on what 'IT'

It is the term I use to refer to the holy spirit...

 

[phil36]

It is the term I use to refer to the holy spirit...

Well there you go..

I will stick to what the bible says . and not what you decide to call God.

 

[silas42]

It is the term I use to refer to the holy spirit...

The Holy Spirit has been referred to as the Spirit of God's prescence, I like that actually

 

[GreenNnice]

Well firstly I'll have to apologise, but I've been at this so much lately I don't feel I can respond to all you wrote, I apologise, I think shorter posts would have to be in order. Firstly, you did not confirm whether you believed what I wrote was acceptable salvational belief or not, that gives me slight concern, for you kinda said to me what I'll now have to say back(or something similar) It leads me to wonder whether you are that confident to say either way. We do need to be sure in our own mind what is and what is not salvational belief, maybe you'll come back and give me your definite opinion. Though I am grateful you do not lay the demands on people for Christianity that some do that are not demanded in scripture

But I will, as you keep bringing it up address the point of Christ having glory. You say this cannot happen because the Father loves the Son, I beg to differ

The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. John3:35

Now that's a very short verse, but let me elaborate. Because the Father loves the Son everything has been placed in his hands. The Son reigns in Heaven and on earth, right now, because the Father loves the Son and has put everything under his feet, that's what it plainly states. It does not say Christ reigns now because he is the one true God, but the Son has received all authority from the Father and reigns because the Father loves him.

Now, if Christ is reigning now, he is going to receive glory, kinda stands to reason, this simply follows on, the Father wants this for His Son because he loves him. But, he is not receiving glory as the one true God, only the Father is titled as such as Christ himself stated

Makes sense to me, but I know it won't to you. But as you don't demand non biblical beliefs for salvation, can't we just leave it here, Green nice, I got enough on my plate here already, I'm only interested in one debate, and that does not apply to you and me, because you ]haven't made demands for Christianity that are not demanded in scripturte(it seems to me)

Okay, I really do need to go do some other stuff, just on here too long, and, it's your night so you are probably getting ready for bed while I'm in middle of workday.

but....The Lord leads

brothersile, that verse you say has nothing to do with Jesus asking God to give Him glory. Just doesn't . Again, it's silly to think that because God loved Jesus that that is why Jesus asked God to "glorify Him." No. Jesus shows us that He is, indeed, Almighty God, by telling us that He wants glory from God, this tells us that Jesus is God, whom is the ONLY one to whom all glory, power, dominion, go.

I am not sure what you want me to say regarding salvational issues. I broke apart the one John 17:3 verse you posted and will do a breakdown of other verses if you post them. The Lord leads, blessings, brosile

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

OK, I'm off !

 

[silas42]

brothersile, that verse you say has nothing to do with God giving glory to the Son. Just doesn't . Again, it's silly to think that because God loved Jesus that that is why Jesus asked God to "glorify Him." No. Jesus shows us that He is, indeed, Almighty God, by telling us that He wants glory from God, this tells us that Jesus is God, whom is the ONLY one to whom all glory, power, dominion, go.

!

Then let us agree to disagree. I won't tell you what you write is silly, I'll be nice, respectful and polite

 

[silas42]

." No. Jesus shows us that He is, indeed, Almighty God, by telling us that He wants glory from God, this tells us that Jesus is God, whom is the ONLY one to whom all glory, power, dominion, go.


“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

OK, I'm off !

Oh go on then. Jesus is telling us he is the one true God at the same time he's telling us only the Father is the one true God
Oh Green nice that's s..... oops(sorry)

 

[cfultz3]

LOL, I did it again !! Now, I'm mad !!!

Can you tell, philly


Sorry, bro, I just was saying 'philly' when I meant to say 'cheesesteak,' I mean, I meant to say, 'brothersile,' ah, the living with these green brains can be such a bother

The Lord leads. Philly, I include you with 'cfultz and olehermitHis' so I am not addressing you on this, unless you don't believe that Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are ALL the one true spirit of the living God who falls afresh on us all who believe and RECEIVE

Greenie must have philly steaks on his mind