Q
Quickfire
Guest
i herd that baptist are reformation of lutherans is that true ? are lutherans christian lol, here we go
Charismatic Lutherans LCMS
- Thread starter Stephen63
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1. I have not made any accusations.
2. Wikipedia isn't my only source.
3. You've accused me one time too many.
Congratulations! I just put you on ignore.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
1. I have not made any accusations.
2. Wikipedia isn't my only source.
3. You've accused me one time too many.
Congratulations! I just put you on ignore.
Good.. But you just proved your true self. Thus the whole room should put you on ignore.
You..
Those are accusations my friend..
http://www.lutheranrenewal.org/The_Charismatic_Movement2.pdf
A defining moment
Among Lutheran charismatics, “receiving the Holy Spirit” has been understood with a view to sanctification, or living the Christian life. In 1974 a National Leaders Conference for the Lutheran Charismatic Movement was convened in Ann Arbor, Michigan. One of the guest speakers was the well-known Lutheran theologian, Dr. William Lazareth. He gave a talk on the
Lutheran understanding of Baptism. During a question and answer session he made a passing reference to Pentecostal theology, “As Lutherans we do not believe that you can add anything to the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement, such as the Pentecostal belief that in order to be saved you must speak in tongues.” A wave of muttering spread through assembly. “Did I say something wrong?” he asked. A pastor from the Missouri Synod stood up and said, “Dr. Lazareth, we meet on a regular basis with Pentecostal pastors in our local ministerial fellowships. They do not believe that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation. On justification, they are as solid and biblical as you are.” Dr. Lazareth said graciously, “Apparently I have been misinformed.” Following the session several of us approached Dr. Lazareth with a proposal: “We would like to have one of us describe how ‘baptism with the Holy Spirit’ happened in his life. Then we would like you to give a Lutheran theological description of the testimony.” Dr. Lazareth accepted the proposal. One of the pastors told how he had received the Holy Spirit, which included a reference to spiritual healing and the experience of speaking in tongues. When asked to comment, Dr. Lazareth said, “What I have just heard, I would call a somewhat dramatic event of sanctification.” In conversing with him afterward we expressed our agreement with his evaluation. “We are not challenging, changing, or belittling the Lutheran understanding of justification by grace alone. What we are talking about is carrying that same understanding over into sanctification: as surely as we are justified only by Christ’s atoning sacrifice, just as surely we are sanctified only by His life; alone by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit can we live the life to which Jesus calls us.”24 This was a defining moment in the charismatic renewal among Lutherans. Participants in the renewal had frequently been challenged on the issue of justification. Critics contended that charismatics compromised the Lutheran understanding of justification by grace alone, tacking “charismatic experience” onto the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement. In point of fact, among charismatics justification by grace alone is so utterly taken for granted that it scarcely needs to be mentioned.
A defining moment
Among Lutheran charismatics, “receiving the Holy Spirit” has been understood with a view to sanctification, or living the Christian life. In 1974 a National Leaders Conference for the Lutheran Charismatic Movement was convened in Ann Arbor, Michigan. One of the guest speakers was the well-known Lutheran theologian, Dr. William Lazareth. He gave a talk on the
Lutheran understanding of Baptism. During a question and answer session he made a passing reference to Pentecostal theology, “As Lutherans we do not believe that you can add anything to the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement, such as the Pentecostal belief that in order to be saved you must speak in tongues.” A wave of muttering spread through assembly. “Did I say something wrong?” he asked. A pastor from the Missouri Synod stood up and said, “Dr. Lazareth, we meet on a regular basis with Pentecostal pastors in our local ministerial fellowships. They do not believe that speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation. On justification, they are as solid and biblical as you are.” Dr. Lazareth said graciously, “Apparently I have been misinformed.” Following the session several of us approached Dr. Lazareth with a proposal: “We would like to have one of us describe how ‘baptism with the Holy Spirit’ happened in his life. Then we would like you to give a Lutheran theological description of the testimony.” Dr. Lazareth accepted the proposal. One of the pastors told how he had received the Holy Spirit, which included a reference to spiritual healing and the experience of speaking in tongues. When asked to comment, Dr. Lazareth said, “What I have just heard, I would call a somewhat dramatic event of sanctification.” In conversing with him afterward we expressed our agreement with his evaluation. “We are not challenging, changing, or belittling the Lutheran understanding of justification by grace alone. What we are talking about is carrying that same understanding over into sanctification: as surely as we are justified only by Christ’s atoning sacrifice, just as surely we are sanctified only by His life; alone by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit can we live the life to which Jesus calls us.”24 This was a defining moment in the charismatic renewal among Lutherans. Participants in the renewal had frequently been challenged on the issue of justification. Critics contended that charismatics compromised the Lutheran understanding of justification by grace alone, tacking “charismatic experience” onto the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement. In point of fact, among charismatics justification by grace alone is so utterly taken for granted that it scarcely needs to be mentioned.
Q
Quickfire
Guest
thats relief then lol. lutherans are not to bad then haha ,, hope for the baptists yet
http://www.lutheranrenewal.org/The_Charismatic_Movement2.pdf
A missed opportunity
Nevertheless, Lutheran charismatics must humbly own up to the fact that beneath a formal
acceptance of Lutheran doctrine there has often bristled a practical downplay of Lutheran
heritage. A charismatic congregation toys with the idea of dropping “Lutheran” from their church
sign, for fear people will write them off as formal and dead. In a charismatic conference, a
speaker takes a cheap shot at “theology” as a deadening alternative to “walking in the Spirit” or
being “Spirit-filled.” A worship leader ploughs through a raft of contemporary songs, seemingly
unconcerned that a visitor would be hard put to recognize any part of the service as distinctively
Lutheran. The new or spontaneous or popular pushes aside the familiar and traditional, rather
than working toward a sensitive blending of the old and the new.
The age-old trap of renewal movements is to become so taken up with a new-found reality
that great treasures of the faith get shunted aside. This rouses suspicion and misgivings on the
part of church officials. Jaroslav Pelikan, editor of the 55 volume set of Luther’s works in
English and a leading Lutheran theologian in his generation, once defined “tradition” as “the
living faith of the dead” and “traditionalism" as the dead faith of the living. In many settings,
Lutheran charismatics have not exercised the thought and patience necessary to thread that
needle. On both sides of the ledger, the Lutheran church and the charismatic renewal have
under-valued and under-appreciated one another.
I definitely agree with that.
A missed opportunity
Nevertheless, Lutheran charismatics must humbly own up to the fact that beneath a formal
acceptance of Lutheran doctrine there has often bristled a practical downplay of Lutheran
heritage. A charismatic congregation toys with the idea of dropping “Lutheran” from their church
sign, for fear people will write them off as formal and dead. In a charismatic conference, a
speaker takes a cheap shot at “theology” as a deadening alternative to “walking in the Spirit” or
being “Spirit-filled.” A worship leader ploughs through a raft of contemporary songs, seemingly
unconcerned that a visitor would be hard put to recognize any part of the service as distinctively
Lutheran. The new or spontaneous or popular pushes aside the familiar and traditional, rather
than working toward a sensitive blending of the old and the new.
The age-old trap of renewal movements is to become so taken up with a new-found reality
that great treasures of the faith get shunted aside. This rouses suspicion and misgivings on the
part of church officials. Jaroslav Pelikan, editor of the 55 volume set of Luther’s works in
English and a leading Lutheran theologian in his generation, once defined “tradition” as “the
living faith of the dead” and “traditionalism" as the dead faith of the living. In many settings,
Lutheran charismatics have not exercised the thought and patience necessary to thread that
needle. On both sides of the ledger, the Lutheran church and the charismatic renewal have
under-valued and under-appreciated one another.
I definitely agree with that.
Continued........
Yet, while one can theorize about different ways the charismatic movement might have developed, the overall narrative testifies to a significant work of the Holy Spirit. I have been personally involved with the charismatic movement among Lutherans for nearly fifty years. When I first began to think and write about it, I made a simple observation: the Bible says, “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues” (1 Corinthians 12:28). Now, God does not do foolish or unnecessary things. If God appointed certain gifts and ministries in the church, it is not for us to weigh whether they are good or necessary, but rather to ask, “Why did God do this? What does He have in mind?”
It is also worth noting that the shape or emphasis of the charismatic renewal varies considerably from place to place and from time to time. In one Lutheran congregation the renewal brought a strong emphasis on Bible teaching and theology, including a demanding three-year confirmation course. In the late 1980s, almost overnight, a fresh emphasis on world evangelization spread throughout the entire renewal. In a Lutheran congregation in North Carolina the renewal came to expression in the grandest worship I have ever experienced — an artful and measured blend of high liturgy and spontaneous charismatic offerings. The Holy Spirit is nothing if not endlessly creative! The charismatic movement, with all its variety, including also faults and missteps, is calling the church to more fully realize its trinitarian faith, to expect and experience in everyday life the presence and work and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
It is also worth noting that the shape or emphasis of the charismatic renewal varies considerably from place to place and from time to time. In one Lutheran congregation the renewal brought a strong emphasis on Bible teaching and theology, including a demanding three-year confirmation course. In the late 1980s, almost overnight, a fresh emphasis on world evangelization spread throughout the entire renewal. In a Lutheran congregation in North Carolina the renewal came to expression in the grandest worship I have ever experienced — an artful and measured blend of high liturgy and spontaneous charismatic offerings. The Holy Spirit is nothing if not endlessly creative! The charismatic movement, with all its variety, including also faults and missteps, is calling the church to more fully realize its trinitarian faith, to expect and experience in everyday life the presence and work and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Continued......
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
The Danger of Taking the Holy Spirit for Granted
One of the careless presumptions that the Holy Spirit Renewal calls into question is the notion that if we have the Holy Spirit in our doctrine, then we “have Him” in full reality and power. I grew up in a congregation where the opening hymn every Sunday reaffirmed our trinitarian faith —
Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty!
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!
We were encouraged to pray to the Father and believe in Jesus, but never once were we encouraged to receive the Third Person of the blessed Trinity. The presumption that we “have” the Holy Spirit sat undisturbed in the narthex of our minds.
This presumption continues to plow a wide furrow outside the Holy Spirit Renewal. An article in a denominational magazine, for example, quotes Acts 1:8, “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses...” The article polevaults over the Holy Spirit and immediately begins to harangue readers to witness more effectively; receiving the Holy Spirit is taken for granted.
The Holy Spirit Renewal orders priorities differently. The Christian life — at any stage, in any situation — radiates outward from the reality of divine presence. In Scripture, the active presence of the Holy Spirit is not simply assumed or taken for granted. It comes about through a conscious, well-remembered encounter with Jesus, who baptizes His followers in the Holy Spirit.
Søren Kierkegaard, the Danish philosopher and father of existentialism, described the Christian life as “a striving born of gratitude.” 27 A mighty sum of exhortation in the church could be cataloged under the rubric, You should be grateful! Gratitude surely adorns the profile of a Christian but, as an enduring motivation for behavior, gratitude has a short shelf life. (“What have you done for me lately?”) The Holy Spirit Renewal points rather to receiving the Holy Spirit, and the enduring reality of living by His presence, guidance, and power. And it does not take this for granted.
Wherever the Holy Spirit Renewal has spread, its initial thrust marked a sea change in the life and ministry of believers. The primary motivation and expectation for everyday living moved from man to God — from the study (even scholarly, academic study) of beliefs, doctrines,rules, formulas and methods for understanding and living the Christian life to a heightened awareness of divine presence.
One of the careless presumptions that the Holy Spirit Renewal calls into question is the notion that if we have the Holy Spirit in our doctrine, then we “have Him” in full reality and power. I grew up in a congregation where the opening hymn every Sunday reaffirmed our trinitarian faith —
Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty!
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!
We were encouraged to pray to the Father and believe in Jesus, but never once were we encouraged to receive the Third Person of the blessed Trinity. The presumption that we “have” the Holy Spirit sat undisturbed in the narthex of our minds.
This presumption continues to plow a wide furrow outside the Holy Spirit Renewal. An article in a denominational magazine, for example, quotes Acts 1:8, “You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses...” The article polevaults over the Holy Spirit and immediately begins to harangue readers to witness more effectively; receiving the Holy Spirit is taken for granted.
The Holy Spirit Renewal orders priorities differently. The Christian life — at any stage, in any situation — radiates outward from the reality of divine presence. In Scripture, the active presence of the Holy Spirit is not simply assumed or taken for granted. It comes about through a conscious, well-remembered encounter with Jesus, who baptizes His followers in the Holy Spirit.
Søren Kierkegaard, the Danish philosopher and father of existentialism, described the Christian life as “a striving born of gratitude.” 27 A mighty sum of exhortation in the church could be cataloged under the rubric, You should be grateful! Gratitude surely adorns the profile of a Christian but, as an enduring motivation for behavior, gratitude has a short shelf life. (“What have you done for me lately?”) The Holy Spirit Renewal points rather to receiving the Holy Spirit, and the enduring reality of living by His presence, guidance, and power. And it does not take this for granted.
Wherever the Holy Spirit Renewal has spread, its initial thrust marked a sea change in the life and ministry of believers. The primary motivation and expectation for everyday living moved from man to God — from the study (even scholarly, academic study) of beliefs, doctrines,rules, formulas and methods for understanding and living the Christian life to a heightened awareness of divine presence.
We have to be careful. It is absolutely wrong to judge an entire denomination by the actions of a few, or even the actions of whole churches. It is easy to stereotype a belief system based on what we see and hear.thats relief then lol. lutherans are not to bad then haha ,, hope for the baptists yet
Naaah, Lutherans aren't bad people. A handful of bad apples doesn't spoil the whole bunch.
The Meaning of a Movement: Lutheran Charismatic Renewal
Charismatic Renewal within the three major Lutheran denominations
When the charismatic renewal came in the 1960's and 1970's there were three major Lutheran church bodies each with about three million members. The American Lutheran Church's center was in Minneapolis, the Lutheran Church in America had twin headquarters in Philadelphia and New York, and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod was, and is still, based in St. Louis. Each denomination experienced renewal in different years and had different responses from their hierarchy, which was partially due to timing as well as emphasis in theology and ecclesiology.
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LC-MS)
In 1966 Rodney Lensch was an LC-MS pastor in Thousand Oaks, California. He had also recognized the discrepancy between the power of God in the Bible and what he had experienced in his pastoral ministry, when he heard the testimony of three clergy from different denominations speak on the baptism of the Holy Spirit. One of them, Rev. Ray Bringham went to the home of the Lensch's, where he prayed for Lensch and his wife to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They received it that evening, and his life was transformed completely.[26] The following year Lensch resigned from his congregation, and the next year officially left the Missouri Synod. He has since then had a faith ministry, traveling, speaking, writing, and "walking alongside" the Synod. In referring to an early meeting of charismatic pastors, Lensch said, "We had all manner of problems to be resolved, but we couldn't agree on theological interpretation, and so didn't get anywhere."[27] Lensch rejects explanations of baptism in the Holy Spirit in existing Lutheran theological categories such as a release of the Spirit. Furthermore, he believes the movement was never to be about gifts, but rather the centrality of the Holy Spirit.[28]
Continued........
Charismatic Renewal within the three major Lutheran denominations
When the charismatic renewal came in the 1960's and 1970's there were three major Lutheran church bodies each with about three million members. The American Lutheran Church's center was in Minneapolis, the Lutheran Church in America had twin headquarters in Philadelphia and New York, and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod was, and is still, based in St. Louis. Each denomination experienced renewal in different years and had different responses from their hierarchy, which was partially due to timing as well as emphasis in theology and ecclesiology.
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LC-MS)
In 1966 Rodney Lensch was an LC-MS pastor in Thousand Oaks, California. He had also recognized the discrepancy between the power of God in the Bible and what he had experienced in his pastoral ministry, when he heard the testimony of three clergy from different denominations speak on the baptism of the Holy Spirit. One of them, Rev. Ray Bringham went to the home of the Lensch's, where he prayed for Lensch and his wife to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They received it that evening, and his life was transformed completely.[26] The following year Lensch resigned from his congregation, and the next year officially left the Missouri Synod. He has since then had a faith ministry, traveling, speaking, writing, and "walking alongside" the Synod. In referring to an early meeting of charismatic pastors, Lensch said, "We had all manner of problems to be resolved, but we couldn't agree on theological interpretation, and so didn't get anywhere."[27] Lensch rejects explanations of baptism in the Holy Spirit in existing Lutheran theological categories such as a release of the Spirit. Furthermore, he believes the movement was never to be about gifts, but rather the centrality of the Holy Spirit.[28]
Continued........
I read a LCMS document that mentioned Charismatic pastors. This particular document wasn't pro-Charismatic, but it seemed to indicate the denomination at least had some 'tolerance' for the idea. The concerns it expressed about Charismatics had more to do with Lutheran theological emphases than specific Biblical issues.
Another prominent figure is Del Rossin who in 1969 was the pastor of a LC-MS congregation in Geneva, Illinois. He had his first encounter with the charismatic renewal movement when a fellow LC-MS pastor played the tape recording of a woman speaking in tongues. The woman was asked, "How do you know this is not of the devil?" and she replied, "Would the devil cause me to love Jesus more?" Her words pierced Rossin:
"That was like a knife. There was wisdom there. That sent me on a search. Primarily I searched the Bible. I talked to other pastors. One evening, while working on a sermon, I said a simple prayer, "Fill with me your Spirit." The Bible came alive. I knew that Jesus Christ is alive today and the Holy Spirit quickens this in us, just as with Peter in Acts.[29]"
Following Rossin being filled with the Holy Spirit, his congregation experienced renewal, and soon, "People started coming to church because they wanted to."[30] Renewal in his congregation spread through prayer meetings and spread within the synod through conferences that attracted thousands. "Seeing the work of Christ was key and when many people were healed, the prayer meetings grew larger and larger." Rossin believes that again today, "Many are yearning for a fresh move of the Spirit, and to seeJesus Christ's story in us."[31]
I'm glad I looked this up. I had told a certain person than I was gonna look up their denomination and expose its flaws. I'm glad I didn't do that. From what I read here, this is a very good thing that happened to Lutherans. I'm glad for any denomination that will allow the Spirit of God to minister to them and through them. A good expose' is one that exposes the good in people. I'm glad for what I found.
"That was like a knife. There was wisdom there. That sent me on a search. Primarily I searched the Bible. I talked to other pastors. One evening, while working on a sermon, I said a simple prayer, "Fill with me your Spirit." The Bible came alive. I knew that Jesus Christ is alive today and the Holy Spirit quickens this in us, just as with Peter in Acts.[29]"
Following Rossin being filled with the Holy Spirit, his congregation experienced renewal, and soon, "People started coming to church because they wanted to."[30] Renewal in his congregation spread through prayer meetings and spread within the synod through conferences that attracted thousands. "Seeing the work of Christ was key and when many people were healed, the prayer meetings grew larger and larger." Rossin believes that again today, "Many are yearning for a fresh move of the Spirit, and to seeJesus Christ's story in us."[31]
I'm glad I looked this up. I had told a certain person than I was gonna look up their denomination and expose its flaws. I'm glad I didn't do that. From what I read here, this is a very good thing that happened to Lutherans. I'm glad for any denomination that will allow the Spirit of God to minister to them and through them. A good expose' is one that exposes the good in people. I'm glad for what I found.
In 1968, there were only 44 LC-MS pastors claiming to have had the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the denomination asked its Commission on Theology and Church Relations to study the charismatic renewal and its theology. The report was released in 1972, and argues that the Lutheran Confessions teach that Christians receive the Holy Spirit in the means of grace, that is, the Word and Sacraments. However, the report is flawed in its methodology as none of the 44 charismatic pastors was included on the committee. Ironically, between 1968 and 1972 the number of charismatic LC-MS pastors grew from 44 to over 200.[32]
Another document, "Policy Statement Regarding the Neo-Pentecostal Movement" issued in 1975 by Concordia Theological Seminary in Springfield, Illinois, deplored the "distortions" of neo-pentecostalism, i.e., "that the Spirit works today apart from or supplementary to the means of Grace."[33] Some charismatic LC-MS pastors did teach that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was subsequent to water baptism, but generally charismatic Lutherans understand faith as created by the Word The report also claimed charismatic Lutherans abandoned the Theology of the Cross for a Theology of Glory.[34] Concordia Seminary denied enrollment to the program for certification to applicants who answered on the questionnaire that they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.[35]
Another document, "Policy Statement Regarding the Neo-Pentecostal Movement" issued in 1975 by Concordia Theological Seminary in Springfield, Illinois, deplored the "distortions" of neo-pentecostalism, i.e., "that the Spirit works today apart from or supplementary to the means of Grace."[33] Some charismatic LC-MS pastors did teach that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was subsequent to water baptism, but generally charismatic Lutherans understand faith as created by the Word The report also claimed charismatic Lutherans abandoned the Theology of the Cross for a Theology of Glory.[34] Concordia Seminary denied enrollment to the program for certification to applicants who answered on the questionnaire that they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.[35]
Continued......
Renewal in LC-MS today
Aided by Rodney Lensch and other LC-MS charismatic movement pioneers, Del Rossin convened a ministerium in 1987 that led to the founding of Renewal in Missouri (RIM) "to try to address the church in a positive way, what is the good news about renewal."[36] RIM held informal gatherings with LC-MS hierarchy, still hosts conferences and retreats for pastors and networks within the LC-MS. RIM also publishes a quarterly newsletter which is sent to a mailing list of 10,000. Rossin said that the charismatic renewal "Really never made much difference in the Synod" [changing attitudes or the direction of its hierarchy] even though more than 600 pastors received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and dozens of congregations were renewed."[37]
What I don't understand is...... How can people who are Lutherans say such terrible things about the charismatic movement, and never give us a single drop of information that it is alive and well in their own denomination? What do we call this? Do we call it hypocrisy? Are they hiding the truth? Are they true Lutherans? I don't have an answer for this...........
But I do have questions. How come they never told us? If they love their own denomination (& I believe they do), how do they deal with this? Do they just ignore it? Are there just certain "cliques" within the denomination that walk in the Spirit, while others do not? If they think Pentecostals and charismatics are cults, what does this mean for their own denomination?
Aided by Rodney Lensch and other LC-MS charismatic movement pioneers, Del Rossin convened a ministerium in 1987 that led to the founding of Renewal in Missouri (RIM) "to try to address the church in a positive way, what is the good news about renewal."[36] RIM held informal gatherings with LC-MS hierarchy, still hosts conferences and retreats for pastors and networks within the LC-MS. RIM also publishes a quarterly newsletter which is sent to a mailing list of 10,000. Rossin said that the charismatic renewal "Really never made much difference in the Synod" [changing attitudes or the direction of its hierarchy] even though more than 600 pastors received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and dozens of congregations were renewed."[37]
What I don't understand is...... How can people who are Lutherans say such terrible things about the charismatic movement, and never give us a single drop of information that it is alive and well in their own denomination? What do we call this? Do we call it hypocrisy? Are they hiding the truth? Are they true Lutherans? I don't have an answer for this...........
But I do have questions. How come they never told us? If they love their own denomination (& I believe they do), how do they deal with this? Do they just ignore it? Are there just certain "cliques" within the denomination that walk in the Spirit, while others do not? If they think Pentecostals and charismatics are cults, what does this mean for their own denomination?
Is this the same LCMS Zone is a part of? I wonder if she has ever had communion blessed by a pastor who speaks in tongues. That would be ironic.
Q
Quickfire
Guest
finaly we get to the point lol, not sure to be honest but i know cults dont necessaly mean a bad thing.
christianity was started of as a small cult that grew an grew, now global and now under many many sects,
one must say this down is mostly down to diffrent regions, like anglican and celtic, germany, sweden spain, america, italy, on an on, so now you have a religion that started as a small cult, now universal, and growing only all the regional cults are growing and spreading out univeraly like the very beginning, a world gone mad,
UMM Because it's not at all common in the LCMS,you have less then about 4% of the pastors saying they do it. (There are almost 10,000 LCMS pastors in the US alone) Because it's common at all they addressed it here
THE LUTHERAN CHURCH
AND THE
CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT
GUIDELINES FOR
CONGREGATIONS AND PASTORS
Preface
As the charismatic movement continues to grow, questions are arising regarding the
validity of experiences being reported within the church today such as miracles of healing,
speaking in tongues, exorcism, and prophecy. Members of the charismatic movement are
convinced that the nine spiritual gifts referred to in I Corinthians 12 are present among Christians
of the 20th century even as they were in apostolic times and that they are in fact being manifested
among God’s people in our times. Other Christians are equally certain that the extraordinary gifts
such as tongues, divine healing, and prophecy were given by the Spirit to His church in apostolic
times but that they have since disappeared from the church. They therefore doubt the validity of
the experiences being claimed by charismatics today. Such differences of opinion have
frequently caused tension to arise among Christians.
Charismatics hold that “baptism with the Holy Spirit” meets a need within the Christian
church as well as in their own personal lives. Their primary objective is to produce a spiritual
renewal within Christendom. Like many other Christians they are deeply concerned over
conditions within the institutional church. They see a lack of commitment on the part of many
who claim church membership. They sense that many Christians do not find in their faith the joy,
peace, and certainty which members of the apostolic church evidently experienced, that many
Christians do not demonstrate the love for one another that they should, that in many
congregations there is a lack of emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit, and that church services
are often too impersonal and formal.
While charismatics contend that “baptism with the Holy Spirit” is the cure for these ills
within Christendom, it is apparent that some of the practices and theological tenets of this movement conflict with Biblical doctrine, thereby causing divisions within various congregations. Perhaps the most serious doctrinal problem of this movement is its tendency to claim direct spiritual illumination apart from the Word, a malady that may have its origin in a loss of confidence in the divine efficacy of the bare Word. To counteract such a flight from the
Word itself, confessional Lutheranism emphasizes that solo verbo (by the Word alone) is as basic to Biblical and Lutheran theology as the great Reformation emphases on grace alone, faith alone, and Scripture alone. Anything that leads people away from the Word for the assurance of the Spirit’s presence and power in their lives is a soul-destroying, satanic delusion.
We should not and cannot pass judgment on the Holy Spirit’s
presence, operations, and gifts merely on the basis of our feeling,
how and when we perceive it in our hearts. On the contrary,
because the Holy Spirit’s activity often is hidden, and happens
under cover of great weakness, we should be certain, because of
and on the basis of his promise, that the Word which is heard and
preached is an office and work of the Holy Spirit, whereby he
assuredly is potent and active in our hearts (II Cor. 2:14ff.). (FC
SD II, 56)
Christian love suggests that the church must endeavor to give counsel and guidance to
congregations and individuals in this area. It was in this spirit that the Commission on Theology
and Church Relations released a report in 1972 bearing the title “The Charismatic Movement and
Lutheran Theology.” This document provided a detailed study of the relevant sections of the
Scriptures. For the same reason and in the same spirit the Commission is now offering
congregations a second document in which it will briefly restate the Synod’s doctrinal stance
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...CJIwRdIcyKNW5QI4kanIh5Q&bvm=bv.51773540,d.dmg
Cont
C. Special signs and wonders are not indispensable guarantees that the Spirit of God
dwells within an individual. To be sure, Scripture relates numerous examples of miraculous
healings in both the Old and New Testaments. It is clear from the Gospels that healing the sick
was an important and integral part of the ministry of Jesus; and when the Savior sent forth His 12
apostles into the cities of Galilee, He gave them specific instructions that they were “to preach
the kingdom of God and to heal” (Luke 9:2). Soon thereafter when He appointed 70 others and
sent them ahead of Him, He told them also to “heal the sick . . . and say to them, ‘The kingdom
of God has come near to you’” (Luke 10:8-9). According to the Book of Acts the miracles of
healing in the early church continued at least for a time after the Savior’s ascension into heaven.7
God can choose to perform such mighty works in and through His church today.
Lutherans affirm the supernatural and the possibility that God can and does intervene in the
course of natural things. However, Scripture warns repeatedly against the type of miraclemindedness
which places undue emphasis on the performance of supernatural deeds rather than
on the proclamation of the Gospel: “Jesus therefore said to him, ‘Unless you see signs and
wonders you will not believe’” (John 4:48). Jesus warns the church against being deceived by
signs and wonders which will appear in the last days to lead Christians astray: “For false Christs
and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible,
even the elect” (Matt. 24:24). Scripture warns the world against demanding miracles from the
church to prove its faith: “‘An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall
be given to it except the sign of Jonah.’ So he left them and departed” (Matt. 16:4). The Bible
states that even such signs as casting out devils, prophesying, and other mighty works, though
they be done in Jesus’ name, do not in themselves guarantee that they are God-pleasing: “Not
everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the
will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your
name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’”
(Matt. 7:21-23). Luke reports: “The seventy returned with joy saying, ‘Lord, even the demons
are subject to us in your name!’ And he said to them, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from
heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the
power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the
spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.’”
C. Special signs and wonders are not indispensable guarantees that the Spirit of God
dwells within an individual. To be sure, Scripture relates numerous examples of miraculous
healings in both the Old and New Testaments. It is clear from the Gospels that healing the sick
was an important and integral part of the ministry of Jesus; and when the Savior sent forth His 12
apostles into the cities of Galilee, He gave them specific instructions that they were “to preach
the kingdom of God and to heal” (Luke 9:2). Soon thereafter when He appointed 70 others and
sent them ahead of Him, He told them also to “heal the sick . . . and say to them, ‘The kingdom
of God has come near to you’” (Luke 10:8-9). According to the Book of Acts the miracles of
healing in the early church continued at least for a time after the Savior’s ascension into heaven.7
God can choose to perform such mighty works in and through His church today.
Lutherans affirm the supernatural and the possibility that God can and does intervene in the
course of natural things. However, Scripture warns repeatedly against the type of miraclemindedness
which places undue emphasis on the performance of supernatural deeds rather than
on the proclamation of the Gospel: “Jesus therefore said to him, ‘Unless you see signs and
wonders you will not believe’” (John 4:48). Jesus warns the church against being deceived by
signs and wonders which will appear in the last days to lead Christians astray: “For false Christs
and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible,
even the elect” (Matt. 24:24). Scripture warns the world against demanding miracles from the
church to prove its faith: “‘An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall
be given to it except the sign of Jonah.’ So he left them and departed” (Matt. 16:4). The Bible
states that even such signs as casting out devils, prophesying, and other mighty works, though
they be done in Jesus’ name, do not in themselves guarantee that they are God-pleasing: “Not
everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the
will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your
name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’”
(Matt. 7:21-23). Luke reports: “The seventy returned with joy saying, ‘Lord, even the demons
are subject to us in your name!’ And he said to them, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from
heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the
power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the
spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.’”