Are catholics Christian?

[watcher2013]

I have answered that, that it is not my place to place condemnation on anyone. I have been forgiven for all, so how can I condemn anyone, since the creator chose not to condemn me. Sorry you just don't get it
The Mercy from God to you and all the world
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1. Did Paul condemned the Athenians in Acts 17:18-32?
2. Was Jesus wrong in saying this about the unbelievers?
Joh_3:18 He thatbelieveth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemnedalready, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son ofGod.

Now based from above and knowing that the Muslims do not believed in the Son of God. Are they not condemned?

 

[watcher2013]

You assume a lot. Does it make you feel more right to confirm your own assumptions?
1) You don't know that the pastor will pray for you.
2) You dont' know if He has faith enough that God will hear him.

The assumption was based on your comparison/ assumption that a prayer to mary is no difference than that prayer of a pastor and I quote your statement

...than YOU asking your pastor to pray for your family during rough times.

your statement does not differentiate whether or not the pastor did pray for the family. So the response was truly based on your assumption the only difference is about Mary being dead while the pastor in your statement was implied to be being alive.

3) you don't know that those who aren't here anylonger can NOT hear you.

Biblically,
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

4) The Catholics believe they can.

There are lots teaching that Catholics believed.

5) How does it affect Faith???? IT DOESN'T. In fact it pretty much shows they have more faith.
6) Their way is much more akin to how you would speak to KINGs anyway. You wouldn't walk in kick your feet up and address the King, HEY ARTHUR I want a wife and a job! You would talk to him through a mediator. It's the way it was done for thousands of years.

The bible confirmed that
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

How many mediator? ONE, no co-mediator....

Does this change faith, well of course, If you have a mediator other than the Man Christ Jesus, Then you have a different redeemer/Saviour.

7) The two men eating meat, was a matter of faith. But the same action was a sin for both. The lesson was, don't argue over things of faith.
8) Paul wrote that things that are divisive and cause factions and splits are of the FLESH motivation, not led by the Spirit. Well HELLLO protestants bashing catholics, that's exactly what we do when we go there.

The question here is to whom is your FAITH?
some have faith in the devil, some have faith in idols, but is your faith about the Man Christ Jesus, the only Mediator between God and men.

What Saul spoke with at Endor was Elohim. Go check me on that. Besides, that isn't what they are doing, and it's idiotic to make that comparison. They DO NOT GO TO A SEER to consult God. That might be some of the Hebrew Kaballah mystics, but not Rome. WHY would you imply such a thing, that is just hateful and mean spirited.

let us see review the story using ISV

1Sa 28:6 Saul inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him, either through dreams or Urim or through prophets. 1Sa 28:7 Saul told his servants, "Find me a woman who is a medium so I can go to her and make my inquiry through her." His servants told him, "Look, there's a woman at Endor who is a medium."
1Sa 28:8 Saul disguised himself, putting on different clothes. He went along with two men to the woman at night. He said, "Consult a familiar spirit for me and bring up for me the one whom I tell you."
1Sa 28:9 The woman told him, "Look, you know what Saul has done. He has removed mediums and spiritists from the land, so why are you trying to entrap me, so as to cause my death?"
1Sa 28:10 Saul swore to her by the LORD: "As surely as the LORD lives, no punishment will come on you for this thing."
1Sa 28:11 The woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" Saul said, "Bring up Samuel for me."

in verse 6, The Lord did not answer Saul.
in verse 6-7, Saul seek for a medium which in the time past he destroyed because of their abomination.
in verse 8-10 the conversation between the witch/medium and Saul.
and in verse 11, Saul want the medium/witch to bring up Samuel.

1. the Bible is clear that this things are detestable.
Deu 18:10 There must never be found among you anyone who sacrifices his son or daughter in fire, practices divination, interprets omens, practices sorcery, Deu 18:11 casts spells, or who is a medium, an occultist, or a necromancer. Deu 18:12 Whoever practices these things is detestable to the LORD, and the LORD your God will expel them before you because of these things.
2. If communication with the deceased is allowed by God, there was no need for Saul to look for a medium. Hence, praying to the dead is a form of communication with the deceased. and
3. Call it Kabbalah, Catholicism , Necromancer, Witchcraft...communication with the deceased biblically is detestable to the Lord.

Mary isn't a graven image that is worshiped. For you to say so, is something said out of fear and ignorance. LIterally, I'm not "cutting you down". You simply do NOT know what you are speaking of. AND REMEMBER, I'm not Catholic, I prefer to debate them, rather than defend them.

"Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father." (Vatican Council II, Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)



This statement shows that Mary may become the subject of worship and its not because of fear and ignorance but from the Vatican Council II, vol 1, pp420 and 421.
AND regarding Mary's images check out (Council of Nicaea (7th Ecumenical,787 AD))

OH THAT IS UTTER HOGOWASH IT CHANGES NEITHER. ANDDDDDD If you are going to say something like that, explain it. An empty accusation is fraudulent.

Hope I have explained it.

 

[watcher2013]

Scripture backs him up.

Which shows how prepared the protestant world is. Rather than research something, it's much more fun to just go off on the one who said it and be totally ignorant of WHY he said it.

are you referring to their subsequent clarification?
If not what scriptures backs him up?

 

[Rickee]

ITimothy 3 verses 5 & 7
Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Verse 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH. Amen!

 

[TannarDarr]

Thank you for the brilliant complement.

I was going for the old bartles and james commercial, but YW.

While the Bible teaches us that “with God, all things are possible” (Matt. 19:26), and “with God nothing is impossible” (Luke 1:37), scripture also teaches that God does have limitations and also has limited Himself.

tiny God. Bad news.

For example, God cannot and will not do anything that is inconsistent with His holy character or divine essence.

Ummm Like Genocide? Watching the CHURCH kill the american indians?

God limits Himself for reasons of His own holiness.

No, he doesn't. God chooses to do what God will do. There is no limit. Just because HE chose to do something YOU judge is holy, doesn't mean HE limited himself to anything.

A good example is found in Titus 1:2 which states, “in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago...” Why can’t God lie? Because lying is contrary to His holiness or His perfect character which includes veracity or truthfulness.

And, even a cursory look at the world reveals that just because God can do something does not automatically equate to He has or will do that something.

Agreed. I remember genocide.... God can do anything. Thus God is not limited.

Matthew 22:14 states, "πολλοὶ γάρ εἰσι κλητοί, ὀλίγοι δὲ ἐκλεκτοί" in relation to the wedding feast parable where Jesus foretells that though Israel was called to Himself, few chose to respond to the Messiah and only appropriation for sin (2 Corinthians. 5:21)whom stated in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father [God] but through Me."

This is true. Doesn't disprove the atheist going to heaven thing.

Note eklektós ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith (4102 /pístis) from Him. Accordingly, these two terms are directly connected (see Tit 1:1; Lk 18:7,8).

Man, ALL of those people who run around screaming they are chosen, that I know, are clearly mistaken. You can claim to be chosen til you die, it doesn't mean a thing. 1 JOhn 4:16-18 is the ONLY determinant of if you are HIS or not. ANd if you aren't HIS you aren't "going to heaven", what ever that means.

Every person's sin causes a separation between them and God (Isaiah 59:2)

Funny, ADAM fled God, God didn't flee Adam. AND GOD HUNTED ADAM DOWN to find Him and heal him. That doesn't sound very separated to me.

Sin separates man from God, because it makes man afraid, and man flees God. GOD DOES NOT STAY AWAY. EVER!

and the result is death (Romans 6:23) and wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

Do you think Mussolini is in heaven kicking it with GOD as the most powerful FASCISTS in the world's history?
[h=2]fas·cism[/h] noun \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\: a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government
: very harsh control or authority




You hold a very awkward understanding of God. You leave half the Bible's teachings out in your picture. Are you related to John Tetzel by chance? Your teaching is one of the reasons Luther rebelled against the Church.

The only way out, is through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9; Rom. 5:1).

That isn't the issue. The issue is can an atheist get out or not. are you going to get to the point?

Trusting that sometimes following your conscience while rejecting Jesus Christ, isn't enough.

Well, that's certainly not biblical... That is your conclusion of scripture, but it is not scripture. You don't even need to know who or what a "JESUS" is to be made one with God. That is what scripture says. ALthough, thank God for Jesus to make it easier.

It is only through Christ that one's sins can be remitted and that they can ever be spiritually reborn to even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

It's only through GRACE that God will forgive your sins. He exercised that Grace before the Word became manifest as Jesus. If not, then HE was a liar.

Now the Pope wrote: "The question for those who do not believe in God is to follow their own conscience. Sin, even for a non-believer, is when one goes against one's conscience. To listen and to follow your conscience means that you understand the difference between good and evil. God forgives those who obey their conscience." He said that the "mercy of God has no limits" encompassing non-believers who willfully reject Jesus Christ and do what is right in their own eyes (Proverbs 26:12).

THIS ABSOSTINKINGLOOTLY IS STRAIGHT SCRIPTURE. I AM SORRY, it is not convenient for your agenda.

When the Pope, or anyone else for that matter, states something that is in opposition to what Jesus Christ says; then I have to go with Jesus Christ.

when someone neo conservative fascist preaching man, says something against the Bible I speak up. We DO have more in common than not. That isn't against what JESUS says, it is exactly WHAT Jesus taught, ALTHOUGH it was made more clear through JOHN and PAUL and JAMES as they broke it down for the world to see.

The Pope made a statement that simply isn't true. Sinners cannot willfully reject Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5; Matthew 10:32-33) to do whatever they feel is right in their own eyes and go to heaven.
Etc... and so on.

An atheist hasn't willfully rejected Jesus the Christ. That's hogwash. They don't believe. BIGGEST ISSUE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE is usually because the GOD preached to them, and the people preaching it are at odds with one another.

Eph 4 says through works, you are led to growth in knowledge of Christ, in Unity with the Church, and to Spiritual maturity as mature as JESUS HIMSELF WAS. Paul wasn't a liar and I trust HIM MORE THAN YOU.

1 john 4:16=18 makes it quite clear, if you don't have the LOVE right, you are not his. If you are not his, you aren't going anywhere but to hell.

If you have an atheist that listens to that small voice, and grows in love, He is fully and irrevocably, going to heaven according to the teachings of Christ,e tc....

As they learn to LOVE, those sins will go away, and they have a mediator for their sins. THEY DO NOT NEED to know who he is, anymore than I need to know who signs my paycheck for me to use the money.

YOU condemn the POPE without even investigating if he COULD be right. You just jumped on his back like a clown on a pigs back at a rodeo.

Think more, talk less.

I'll be glad to talk more, if you will think more.

 

[Jesus_lover_of_my_soul]

All I know is we must take up or cross daily for us to be worthy of him, Lord help us. He is merciful to all who fear him, as far as the heavens are above the Earth. Praise the Lord ABBA (father)

 

[homwardbound]

1. Did Paul condemned the Athenians in Acts 17:18-32?
2. Was Jesus wrong in saying this about the unbelievers?
Joh_3:18 He thatbelieveth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemnedalready, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son ofGod.

Now based from above and knowing that the Muslims do not believed in the Son of God. Are they not condemned?

We will see and all will be revealed at the great white throne Judgment. It is what it is, and you have decided to make your own judgment, where I have prayed for all I meet and come into contact with. Knowing God knows what to do and say to each, as God sees fit, not you, me or anyone else in their unredeemed flesh.
Do you see and understand God's Love?

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

And see whatever we do, is nothing if it is without God's Love, that no flesh can do

 

[thecreationtutor]

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

The least Christian people are people who go around judging and claiming they are more Christian than other people. If you are picking who to hang out with, looks at their actions. How do they treat the poor, the sick and the hungry? That’s says more about who they are than what church they go to.

tares have actions too. Lots of people give everything they have to the poor, it doesn't mean they are Christian - in fact many people are more 'moral' than believers. Salvation is not based on morality, for we are totally depraved, but the redeemed - born again disciple of Jesus Christ.

Is it loving to let people believe what they want and never warn them to what scripture actually teaches. There are major things - Ephesians 4:1-6 that are non-negotiables

Roman Catholicism that follows the Pope, when the pope says you don't have to know God to go to heaven is preaching a false Gospel.

other versions of Catholicism - what do they believe? finding out might require a value statement(which is a judgment)

 

[watcher2013]

We will see and all will be revealed at the great white throne Judgment. It is what it is, and you have decided to make your own judgment, where I have prayed for all I meet and come into contact with. Knowing God knows what to do and say to each, as God sees fit, not you, me or anyone else in their unredeemed flesh.
Do you see and understand God's Love?

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

And see whatever we do, is nothing if it is without God's Love, that no flesh can do

Jesus preach more in the reality of hell than love.
How would you know love?
if Muslims as per the bible are already condemned if they will not repent of their unbelief.
AND YOU KNOW THIS, AND BECAUSE YOU ARE FULL OF LOVE YOU WOULD NOT TELL THEM THAT THEY ARE DESTINED IN ETERNITY OF HELL.


IS THAT WHAT YOU CALLED LOVE?

I WONDER HOW YOU TREAT YOUR ENEMY?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Here's an English translation of the letter Pope Francis sent to Scalfari:

Pope Francisco writes to La Repubblica: "An open dialogue with non-believers" - Repubblica.it

 

[TannarDarr]

tares have actions too. Lots of people give everything they have to the poor, it doesn't mean they are Christian - in fact many people are more 'moral' than believers. Salvation is not based on morality, for we are totally depraved, but the redeemed - born again disciple of Jesus Christ.

Scripture doesn't support total depravity. That is a man made doctrine, and you can't defend it. Start the thread I'll be glad to jump in, it will be a grand ole time for all to witness.

Is it loving to let people believe what they want and never warn them to what scripture actually teaches.

Of course not. that's why I'm on to you like white on rice now. I'm here to save your decrepit soul from it's wandered ways of bastardizing scripture.

There are major things - Ephesians 4:1-6 that are non-negotiables

Umm yeah, whatever this means.

Roman Catholicism that follows the Pope, when the pope says you don't have to know God to go to heaven is preaching a false Gospel.

Well, you are such a stickler to scripture, do you claim to "know God"? Because scripture will say that you do not yet Know Him. I'm not judging you, YOU brought up the posture that the Pope doesn't know scripture and you do, and I'm challenging you. I bet I can have you contradict 4 out of 5 scriptural verses. But YOUUUUUUUUUUUU feel you can judge the Pope, who's devoted his life to the faith, not a wife, not a job, not a career, not a family, but God and HIS family. YOUR weekend warrior theology, inherently is better than his.

Forgive me, but I find the pride, the hubris, in that posture to be totally discrediting.

FOR THE RECORD, Papa Francis is MUCH MORE theologically correct on this statement than you are. Try me on that one too! Maybe they will let us have our own thread to debate the topic. I'm not Catholic, and I'm not capable of speaking for God, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last month, so I feel qualified to judge YOU as wrong and PAPA as right.

Now, I don't really, but I wanted to take YOUR attitude, and put it back in your face. You balk at it. So do they when you do it. ESPECIALLY when you are speaking dogma and not scripture.

other versions of Catholicism - what do they believe? finding out might require a value statement(which is a judgment)

I HOPE you'll accept the challenge, give me a note to know to look for the threads....

I highly doubt you will. Usually those trying to impose their will on others, to force people to believe as they do, are not that willing to challenge their own beliefs in a meaningful way. It destroys the whole myth they facilitate about themselves.

 

[TannarDarr]

are you referring to their subsequent clarification?
If not what scriptures backs him up?

HERE IS the nutshell version.

GO read 1 john 4:16-18.

Go on.

Shew

Go read it.
FINE use this link then.... Welcome to BLB v3

1) Do you love as God does?
2) If so you love His enemies and provide for them. What is your stance on gay marriage?
3) If you love, then GoD is in you and you are not in HIm.
4) thus if you do not love, is He in you? ANd if he's not in you, what is your salvific claims? You gonna do it alone?

We can agree that IF you are saved the love will be present in you.

JESUS described the love we are to have in matthew 5:43-48. Love as GOD does, even to providing for your enemies.

Jesus exemplified it in Matt 25's last parable.

Both show that "love" is demonstrated via action, as Paul shows here.... gal 5:6.

Now, the having love right, is the single determinant of if you are heaven bound or not. What denomination, or how many altar calls, magic baths, sinners prayers you take is irrelevant. GET THE LOVE RIGHT. WITHOUT THE LOVE RIGHT 1 john 4 says you are NOT IN HIM AND HE IS NOT IN YOU!

So, until that point he is working ON YOU, not from within YOU.

SO< THE QUESTION BECOMES.......
How do you get the love right.

Paul explains that the Church has leaders appointed by God, who are to lead the people in works of service.
NOT LECTURE THEM ON THEOLOGY. (knowledge puffs up.)

Through those works, they gain UNITY in the faith, and KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST. (wow, knowledge of christ through works, how unChristian of them, right? damn Catholics went back in time and changed the Bible to suit their beliefs... It's a conspiracy.)

THROUGH those works, you are also to become a perfect man. That means mature. Grow to full maturity in the faith.

How mature?
It says if Christ's maturity was measured in a glass then:
your glass would be just as full.
and it would be just as big a glass.

Your maturity would be the same as the fullness of Christ's.

This is through works. NOT through study.
You can't learn to throw a ball from lefty to righty by reading a book. You have to throw the ball over and over. THAT is what the works are doing. And God changes you as you walk.

Now, I'm not saying the preferred way to get to heaven is be an atheist and follow your conscience.

HOWEVER, if He follows that conscience, and gets on the do the loving exercises to his neighbors that one of the faith should do, (but few are known to do), then God guides His hand and His walk and he learns more of God, than most Xians do.

That's how. If you want me to dig up 85 pages of scripture and exegetics to back this up, I can. BUT I doubt you'll read it so I'm sticking to the thumbnail version.

 

[tedjoh]

What is a Christian but someone who is Christ like? You don't have to be a genius. No where in the Bible does it say to pray to mother Mary and certainly not over and over. She was the blessed woman that gave birth to Jesus and praise God she did however she can't do a thing for me. Jesus is my mediator between me and God no one else. You can stop praying to her. Jesus said, whatsoever you ask the Father in my name He will give it to you. Get the focus on Jesus where it belongs!

 

[TannarDarr]

The assumption was based on your comparison/ assumption that a prayer to mary is no difference than that prayer of a pastor and I quote your statement

EITHER intercessory prayer is ok, I.E. to request intercessory prayer is ok or it isn't. If it's ok for you to ask me to pray for your faith, then it is ok for them to ask mary to do the same for them. IF OR IF NOT SHE CAN, is irrelevant.

Biblically,
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The "dead" isn't mary. Unless you think she denied the Christ and went to hell. :| What the crap are you claiming here?
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

The dead in this comment, is those that are most decidedly NOT with GOD. So for this verse to prove ANYTHING IN THIS DISCUSSION, you must hold that Mary went to hell and is truly dead. Do you recant the position? Or do you put Mary in Hell?

There are lots teaching that Catholics believed.

and there are lots of lies and half truths told about them, to justify the bashing Xians feel obligatory towards them.

The bible confirmed that
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

How many mediator? ONE, no co-mediator....

So, do you call Jesus a liar? Well, do you? Or do you just skim the surface until you find something you can gripe about Catholics about?
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 9:8
[/TD]
[TD]But when the crowds saw this, they were fnawestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 28:18
[/TD]
[TD]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins fnhave been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

What is relative is someone led by the Spirit who has RECEIVED the Spirit has Christ's authority to do just that, forgive sins.
So, where else do you come to correct Christ. I mean what sorta Messiah is He to not agree with YOU and His teachings not have YOUR approval! HARUMPH!

Does this change faith, well of course, If you have a mediator other than the Man Christ Jesus, Then you have a different redeemer/Saviour.

Christ is the High Priest. That means there are less High Priests, else He would just be THE priest, vs HIGH Priest.
The Priests of Rome's Church do not usurp power from Christ, they act in the direction of Christ. THEY are those who were appointed to lead the Catholic People by CHRIST HIMSELF. Eph 4. 8=11.

Christ is the head, the Church (for me it's not just ROme, but all the church leaders, not with titles of man, but in God's eyes) leaders are the neck/spine, they take the message to the rest for how they should perform. THAT is scriptural. THAT is how ROME not protestants are set up, and THAT is how Clement, who knew Paul and most likely Peter, so undoubtedly saw and heard how they wanted it established, saw fit to describe the Church. So EARLY CHURCH HISTORY, and the bible disagree with you.

You are here to correct them all, I guess?

The question here is to whom is your FAITH?
some have faith in the devil, some have faith in idols, but is your faith about the Man Christ Jesus, the only Mediator between God and men.

Your faith, I'm afraid, is in what you know. Not how you live.
It's certainly not in the Bible's teachings, as you are trying to bend it and edit out parts of it to hold to the belief you start with. Is it more Christian to bend the Bible to your faith, or fit your faith within the Bibles?

let us see review the story using ISV

1Sa 28:6 Saul inquired of the LORD, but the LORD did not answer him, either through dreams or Urim or through prophets. 1Sa 28:7 Saul told his servants, "Find me a woman who is a medium so I can go to her and make my inquiry through her." His servants told him, "Look, there's a woman at Endor who is a medium."
1Sa 28:8 Saul disguised himself, putting on different clothes. He went along with two men to the woman at night. He said, "Consult a familiar spirit for me and bring up for me the one whom I tell you."
1Sa 28:9 The woman told him, "Look, you know what Saul has done. He has removed mediums and spiritists from the land, so why are you trying to entrap me, so as to cause my death?"
1Sa 28:10 Saul swore to her by the LORD: "As surely as the LORD lives, no punishment will come on you for this thing."
1Sa 28:11 The woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" Saul said, "Bring up Samuel for me."

in verse 6, The Lord did not answer Saul.
in verse 6-7, Saul seek for a medium which in the time past he destroyed because of their abomination.
in verse 8-10 the conversation between the witch/medium and Saul.
and in verse 11, Saul want the medium/witch to bring up Samuel.

First the Witch at Endor was furious at Saul for what HE MADE HER DO, she was against it, and said it was wrong. Don't condemn her.

Second what was summoned was ELOHIM. The word neo conservative ranting Christians says is GOD in plurality.

THIRD,Catholics don't' summon spirits. Not in the sense of the word you find in use here.

fourth, do you deliberately try to paint such a denigratory picture of them, or do you really believe the crap you are spewing?

1. the Bible is clear that this things are detestable.
Deu 18:10 There must never be found among you anyone who sacrifices his son or daughter in fire, practices divination, interprets omens, practices sorcery, Deu 18:11 casts spells, or who is a medium, an occultist, or a necromancer. Deu 18:12 Whoever practices these things is detestable to the LORD, and the LORD your God will expel them before you because of these things.
2. If communication with the deceased is allowed by God, there was no need for Saul to look for a medium. Hence, praying to the dead is a form of communication with the deceased. and
3. Call it Kabbalah, Catholicism , Necromancer, Witchcraft...communication with the deceased biblically is detestable to the Lord.

God doesn't like shrimp for the Jews either, but I love them, how about you? This is all some red herring witch hunt that doesn't exist, literally. It's beneath you and dishonest. Whether dishonest or out of ignorance I don't know, but it's a dishonest representation of their views. CATHOLIC MEMBERS if I am wrong, please adjust my direction to get it closer to right.

"Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father." (Vatican Council II, Vol. 1, pp. 420 and 421)



This statement shows that Mary may become the subject of worship and its not because of fear and ignorance but from the Vatican Council II, vol 1, pp420 and 421.
AND regarding Mary's images check out (Council of Nicaea (7th Ecumenical,787 AD))
Hope I have explained it.

You have thoroughly defined your lack of education on the topics. I hope you ask seek knock, and lose the parroting act.

WHY did MARY get the statements made at Vat Coun 2, do you know? Or are you going to ignore the history and the thoughts behind it, thus understanding it, and judge it out of ignorance.

Rhetorical question, you have already answered in your actions.

I hope you realize you are Anti Christ in your condemnation here. I say that because yoU LITERALLY USURP CHRIST'S DIRECT WORDS.

Your mama must be proud.

 

[watcher2013]

HERE IS the nutshell version.

GO read 1 john 4:16-18.

Go on.

Shew

Go read it.
FINE use this link then.... Welcome to BLB v3

1) Do you love as God does?
2) If so you love His enemies and provide for them. What is your stance on gay marriage?
3) If you love, then GoD is in you and you are not in HIm.
4) thus if you do not love, is He in you? ANd if he's not in you, what is your salvific claims? You gonna do it alone?

We can agree that IF you are saved the love will be present in you.

JESUS described the love we are to have in matthew 5:43-48. Love as GOD does, even to providing for your enemies.

Jesus exemplified it in Matt 25's last parable.

Both show that "love" is demonstrated via action, as Paul shows here.... gal 5:6.

Now, the having love right, is the single determinant of if you are heaven bound or not. What denomination, or how many altar calls, magic baths, sinners prayers you take is irrelevant. GET THE LOVE RIGHT. WITHOUT THE LOVE RIGHT 1 john 4 says you are NOT IN HIM AND HE IS NOT IN YOU!

So, until that point he is working ON YOU, not from within YOU.

SO< THE QUESTION BECOMES.......
How do you get the love right.

Paul explains that the Church has leaders appointed by God, who are to lead the people in works of service.
NOT LECTURE THEM ON THEOLOGY. (knowledge puffs up.)

Through those works, they gain UNITY in the faith, and KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST. (wow, knowledge of christ through works, how unChristian of them, right? damn Catholics went back in time and changed the Bible to suit their beliefs... It's a conspiracy.)

THROUGH those works, you are also to become a perfect man. That means mature. Grow to full maturity in the faith.

How mature?
It says if Christ's maturity was measured in a glass then:
your glass would be just as full.
and it would be just as big a glass.

Your maturity would be the same as the fullness of Christ's.

This is through works. NOT through study.
You can't learn to throw a ball from lefty to righty by reading a book. You have to throw the ball over and over. THAT is what the works are doing. And God changes you as you walk.

Now, I'm not saying the preferred way to get to heaven is be an atheist and follow your conscience.

HOWEVER, if He follows that conscience, and gets on the do the loving exercises to his neighbors that one of the faith should do, (but few are known to do), then God guides His hand and His walk and he learns more of God, than most Xians do.

That's how. If you want me to dig up 85 pages of scripture and exegetics to back this up, I can. BUT I doubt you'll read it so I'm sticking to the thumbnail version.

Here is what it says before your verses so you may understand.

1Jn4:9 This is how God's love was revealedamong us: God sent his unique Son into the world so that we might live throughhim. 1Jn 4:10 This is love: not that wehave loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoningsacrifice for our sins

This is the LOVE that God had showed to us. God sent his Son to be atoning sacrifice for sins. (see also John 3:16)

Now, Since the pope said that atheist do not need to believe in God, to go to heaven as you also defended.

Could you find the love of God in there???? a definite NO. (for they do not need the atoning sacrifice of his Son as you and the pope imply)

Do you have that Love ( that God sent his Son to be atoning sacrifice for sins), If you have that... then Love your neighbour (share the wisdom of love, that He sent his Son Jesus to atone for our sins...so that WE MIGHT LIVE THROUGH HIM.

my stance on gay Marriage, I think there are other thread for that... however I would refer you to (1 Cor 6:9-13, Jude 7, rev 21:8), and the word "REPENT"

In acts 17:19-32, the first step is theology.... ENJOY AND READ

Believe in the True God and Repent of Unbelief.

I think even if you dig a 1000 pages, you would not understand because you failed to understand the very basics of God's love.

 

[TannarDarr]

Here is what it says before your verses so you may understand.

I have no issue understanding. I've invested more time of my life on this one book, that most on this forum have the whole bible. Certainly not all, but literally thousands of hours. If something starts bouncing around in my skull, I can't put it down til it's finished.

1Jn4:9 This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent his unique Son into the world so that we might live through him. 1Jn 4:10 This is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins

This is the LOVE that God had showed to us. God sent his Son to be atoning sacrifice for sins. (see also John 3:16)

Now, Since the pope said that atheist do not need to believe in God, to go to heaven as you also defended.

Ok, so you are just going to ignore the verses I gave you? REALLY? fine, you have proven that John contradicts himself. ADDRESS THE VERSES, don't run and hide from them!!!!!

Could you find the love of God in there???? a definite NO. (for they do not need the atoning sacrifice of his Son as you and the pope imply).

The verses 16-18 are still there. THey still say what they say. Ignoring them only shows you can NOT answer them, not that they say something different.

Do you have that Love ( that God sent his Son to be atoning sacrifice for sins), If you have that... then Love your neighbour (share the wisdom of love, that He sent his Son Jesus to atone for our sins...so that WE MIGHT LIVE THROUGH HIM.

Funny, JESUS showed LOVE, when he talked about it, to be GOD PROVIDING FOR HIS ENEMIES. OR read the last parable of matt 25. It actually did something beside preach. You are sin focused, not grace focused. You are so focused on sin, all you can see is sin and forgive. You miss 4/5s of the gospel message. GOD saved our sorry butts to be an instrument of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. that is NOT PREACHING, that is DOING AND PROVIDING AND SHOWING A WORK BEHIND YOUR FAITH AND LOVE.
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Gal 5:6
[/TD]
[TD]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 608"]
[TR]
[TD]Jam 1:27
[/TD]
[TD]Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained fnby the world.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 25:34
[/TD]
[TD]“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Mat 25:35
[/TD]
[TD]‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
......
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Perfect means mature. You can read that is LOVE the same way GOD which is in heaven's complete love reveals.
The verse above is Jesus' example of what that love looks like. WHY IS JESUS' words not good enough for you?

There is how Jesus saw love...

my stance on gay Marriage, I think there are other thread for that... however I would refer you to (1 Cor 6:9-13, Jude 7, rev 21:8), and the word "REPENT"

What does repent have to do with getting married? Atheists can get married and they aren't repeating. SEE???? This is NOT THE LOVE told about in my previous post, nor the examples in this one. You run scared of punishment from God. There is no fear in perfect love, but if you have perfect love HE is in you and YOU are in Him. UNTIL YOU ARE IN HIM, your claim to heaven is good for making plant air.

I think even if you dig a 1000 pages, you would not understand because you failed to understand the very basics of God's love.

While I'm free to admit I'm still growing and learning in God's love, which is a good place to be, verses thinking you have arrived somewhere you haven't arrived at, I have to say, at least my view of LOVE matches up close to what Jesus saw.

Good luck there.

You are a trip.

 

[TannarDarr]

What is a Christian but someone who is Christ like? You don't have to be a genius. No where in the Bible does it say to pray to mother Mary and certainly not over and over. She was the blessed woman that gave birth to Jesus and praise God she did however she can't do a thing for me. Jesus is my mediator between me and God no one else. You can stop praying to her. Jesus said, whatsoever you ask the Father in my name He will give it to you. Get the focus on Jesus where it belongs!

No where does it say NOT to ask for intercessory prayer, either.
Rome doesn't FOCUS on Mary. But they honor her, imo, overly, yet harmlessly. AND NOT INCONSISTENTLY WITH SCRIPTURE.

So, any other myths?

 

[watcher2013]

EITHER intercessory prayer is ok, I.E. to request intercessory prayer is ok or it isn't. If it's ok for you to ask me to pray for your faith, then it is ok for them to ask mary to do the same for them. IF OR IF NOT SHE CAN, is irrelevant.

Mary is sleeping and waiting for the resurrection... SHE CANNOT PRAY FOR YOU.

Biblically, The Spirit makes intercession in our prayer.

Rom 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, since we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words, Rom 8:27 and the one who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to God's will.

The "dead" isn't mary. Unless you think she denied the Christ and went to hell. :| What the crap are you claiming here?
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

The dead in this comment, is those that are most decidedly NOT with GOD. So for this verse to prove ANYTHING IN THIS DISCUSSION, you must hold that Mary went to hell and is truly dead. Do you recant the position? Or do you put Mary in Hell?

Maybe you are referring to the translation of the "Sheol " in verse 10, Which can be substituted as "hell" and can also be used as "grave".

As I said, Mary is sleeping (dead) and waiting for the resurrection.

and there are lots of lies and half truths told about them, to justify the bashing Xians feel obligatory towards them.

What is this teaching about the Catholic Faith, is this truth or lies? Do you believe in this teaching?
Catechism 966
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

So, do you call Jesus a liar? Well, do you? Or do you just skim the surface until you find something you can gripe about Catholics about?
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 9:8
[/TD]
[TD]But when the crowds saw this, they were fnawestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 28:18
[/TD]
[TD]And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Yes Jesus can forgive sins and has the Authority

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sinsfnhave been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

What is relative is someone led by the Spirit who has RECEIVED the Spirit has Christ's authority to do just that, forgive sins.
So, where else do you come to correct Christ. I mean what sorta Messiah is He to not agree with YOU and His teachings not have YOUR approval! HARUMPH!

There are things need to consider to understand this.
1. When did the apostles receives the Spirit, at that time or at the Pentecost? (john 16:7, Acts 1:4,8)
2. Did the apostles practice forgiving sins? (please provide a biblical verse)
3. we are told to forgive one another (Col 3:13)
4. Who can forgive sins but God (Mar 2:7,10)

Christ is the High Priest. That means there are less High Priests, else He would just be THE priest, vs HIGH Priest.
The Priests of Rome's Church do not usurp power from Christ, they act in the direction of Christ. THEY are those who were appointed to lead the Catholic People by CHRIST HIMSELF. Eph 4. 8=11.

Christ is the head, the Church (for me it's not just ROme, but all the church leaders, not with titles of man, but in God's eyes) leaders are the neck/spine, they take the message to the rest for how they should perform. THAT is scriptural. THAT is how ROME not protestants are set up, and THAT is how Clement, who knew Paul and most likely Peter, so undoubtedly saw and heard how they wanted it established, saw fit to describe the Church. So EARLY CHURCH HISTORY, and the bible disagree with you.

You are here to correct them all, I guess?

you guess too much.

Your comment regarding High Priest shows your lack of understanding regarding Aaronic priesthood.

Biblically Christ is the Head of the Church.
the rest are members including Mary.

Your faith, I'm afraid, is in what you know. Not how you live.
It's certainly not in the Bible's teachings, as you are trying to bend it and edit out parts of it to hold to the belief you start with. Is it more Christian to bend the Bible to your faith, or fit your faith within the Bibles?

how you live your life is where your faith is.

First the Witch at Endor was furious at Saul for what HE MADE HER DO, she was against it, and said it was wrong. Don't condemn her.

Second what was summoned was ELOHIM. The word neo conservative ranting Christians says is GOD in plurality.

THIRD,Catholics don't' summon spirits. Not in the sense of the word you find in use here.

fourth, do you deliberately try to paint such a denigratory picture of them, or do you really believe the crap you are spewing?

Are you really sure you want to discuss this further????

The witch at endor was furious at Saul for what HE MADE HER DO, SHE WAS AGAINST IT, AND SAID IT WAS WRONG

????
Please read the whole story, The witch was not against it, She was saying about how Saul destroyed those who were like her and have banned them.

Do the Catholics pray to the dead (like Mary)?

God doesn't like shrimp for the Jews either, but I love them, how about you? This is all some red herring witch hunt that doesn't exist, literally. It's beneath you and dishonest. Whether dishonest or out of ignorance I don't know, but it's a dishonest representation of their views. CATHOLIC MEMBERS if I am wrong, please adjust my direction to get it closer to right.

The laws serves as school master for the Jews to bring them to Christ that they may be justified by faith. (Gal 3:24-25)
Praying to the dead is not the same as praying to God.

You have thoroughly defined your lack of education on the topics. I hope you ask seek knock, and lose the parroting act.

WHY did MARY get the statements made at Vat Coun 2, do you know? Or are you going to ignore the history and the thoughts behind it, thus understanding it, and judge it out of ignorance.

Rhetorical question, you have already answered in your actions.

Please share your wisdom as to WHY did Mary get the statements...

I hope you realize you are Anti Christ in your condemnation here. I say that because yoU LITERALLY USURP CHRIST'S DIRECT WORDS.

I may sound like ANTI- MARY but definitely not Anti Christ, In fact I EMPHASIZE that the Man Christ Jesus is the only Mediator between God and men.

 

[watcher2013]

I have no issue understanding. I've invested more time of my life on this one book, that most on this forum have the whole bible. Certainly not all, but literally thousands of hours. If something starts bouncing around in my skull, I can't put it down til it's finished.



Ok, so you are just going to ignore the verses I gave you? REALLY? fine, you have proven that John contradicts himself. ADDRESS THE VERSES, don't run and hide from them!!!!!

[/COLOR][/FONT]
The verses 16-18 are still there. THey still say what they say. Ignoring them only shows you can NOT answer them, not that they say something different.

1Jn 4:16 And we haveknown and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he thatdwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
( have known and Believed the Love that God hath to us)
What is it that known and need to believed).. again this refer from vs 9 -15, that God sent His Son for the atonement of sins.
And the rest of verses follows...If you rely on that Love, it cast away fear..even the fear of torment and you have the boldness to stand on the right side at the day of Judgment.

Of course atheist, do not have that kind of love...

To add:

Eph 2:8 For by suchgrace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is thegift of God Eph 2:9 and not the resultof actions, to put a stop to all boasting. Eph 2:10 For we are God's masterpiece, created in theMessiah Jesus to perform good actions that God prepared long ago to be our wayof life.

 

[clayservant]

to answer the op, some are.