Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

zone · Sep 17, 2013

8 They heard the voice of Adonai, God, walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, so the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence ofAdonai, God, among the trees in the garden. 9 Adonai, God, called to the man, “Where are you?” 10 He answered, “I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, so I hid myself.”

God's presence walking in the garden represented everything he had previously spoke to Adam and his wife that had become part of their conscience that was conscious of God only. When Adam had transgressed by eating what was prohibited, his eyes were opened to his wife and his own nakedness (self consciousness, realization of self or self awareness) and they sewed fig leaves to cover themselves with an apron (a false covering). Fear became his response to the voice and sound of God's presence (all that God had taught him) and they hid themselves among the trees from the presence of the Lord. Adam knew what he had done self consciously and all it took was the voice and sound of God's presence to convict him causing him to react through fear and hide himself from God's presence. Just wording it this way upsets some people and they accuse you of adding to the scripture, when in reality you have come to that understanding by studying that account. I won't go into it but the word for 'voice' comes from the same root word that means to 'call aloud'. There is a definite sound associated with the word 'voice' and it was unmistakable as to who it was coming from.We can liken that sound voice as to John 10:3-5.

3 The watchman opens the door for this man, and the sheep listen to his voice andheed it; and he calls his own sheep by name and brings (leads) them out.
4 When he has brought his own sheep outside, he walks on before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 They will never [on any account] follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not know the voice of strangers or recognize their call.

Then comes the question, 'Why did Eve, the woman, listen to the voice of the serpent when she already had God's voice on the issue as to what she should do concerning that tree in the midst of the garden? What was it that caught her eye and got her to desire the wisdom of that tree and to partake of its fruit? She was deceived into believing that she could have independent knowledge that was being kept from her and her husband through that tree. After they ate they got the knowledge of good and evil but it was self knowledge oriented to the earthy wisdom of self realization bringing in the sin of independence and separation from God. It's actually astonishing that they still knew the voice of God that was presented in the cool of the day. What was different was how they were oriented to that voice. Before they were perfectly one with God who had created and covered them in his image and likeness, but now they had been uncovered and were independent through self consciousness and self awareness in their nakedness having been stripped of being only God conscious. They had gone from being one with God to only being aware of the voice and sound of God's presence having covered themselves with the false covering of fig leaves that were later replaced by God when he covered them with coats of skin in Gen 3:21 and placed them outside the garden.

nice attempt to back out of your defense of the charismatic's claim to direct revelation by hearing a "small still voice".

you have yourself covered

all that eisegesis. is it voice and sound? or is it voice - speaking? what'd you add sound in there for?

here's a ton of other versions you can use in the future.

Genesis 3:10 He answered, I heard you in the garden, and - Online Bible Study Tools < click

might want to check them all though.

Genesis 3:10 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.'

zone · Sep 17, 2013

SarahM777 said:

well, it seems obvious.
the guy says "God told me"....you believe him, then it's a done deal.

who dares to question him after that - after all, the guy said clearly God told him directly? and other people say they believe him.

and if you accept one guy who claims it, you have no reason (or courage) to question the next guy.

nobody wants to be left not having God speak directly to them, so pretty soon you have more and more saying "God told me"
eventually nobody is reading what God said anymore, because He's speaking right through everybody.

and if we don't like what He is saying through prophet Jones, we can go down the street and hear God say something we like better, through prophet Smith.

meh.

oldhermit · Sep 17, 2013

zone said:

This is always the last line of defense. When one cannot create a synthesis between what they believe and what scripture says they make an appeal to "direct revelation" via a "still small voice" in an attempt to give credibility to their position. It is just simply a means of attempting to overturn the authority of scripture which stands against what they believe.

SarahM777 · Sep 17, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Stephen,

I think you're missing the point of what I was trying to get at. See if you boil it down,what you have is two groups of people both claiming they have the gifts of prophecy,both saying the Lord showed them TWO DIFFERENT THINGS,the first group believed the Lord showed then He was RESTORING the gifts,the second says the Lord showed them the gifts never ceased. If the Lord was showing either the truth why are they in conflict with each other? Doesn't that in and of itself show that at least one group is WRONG? Why are they NOT in agreement with each other?

BradC · Sep 17, 2013

zone said:

That is an issue that you may have with them concerning the still small voice of God as some direct revelation, but for me it's about being led of God through the Spirit (God's breath). Being led of the Spirit does not add or take away from the scriptures we have been given. You are lumping me with others again. You also have to be careful that you do not take away from the scriptures as much as you chide others of adding to the scriptures. Omission is an example of taking away. The warning in the book of Revelation is clear to all. Would you want plagues to be added to you or have your part taken out of the book of life? Do neither by staying away from both unless of course you think your mature enough to handle all that because of your vast knowledge. Unless we are Spirit taught our knowledge is nothing to brag about.

We are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (God breathed as an exhale) and that is where being led of the Spirit comes in. I don't see that as being difficult and I do not see a revelation of God that might come to an individual in that leading, who is seeking God with all their heart, as misleading. The revelation through the Spirit will not be misplaced or magnified above the written word but will guide the believer into their call and work of faith and into the truth of Christ. Anytime God reveals something to the believer he is taking a risk because we are human and have frailties that just might include doing something with that revelation that was not intended. It happens just like lots of other things. Some people use too much toilet paper and clop it up making a mess of things. God did not tell them to use that much paper they just overlooked flushing the toilet have way through. See what I mean.

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

zone said:

How about post something with a single, valid Biblical argument. He argues that God has 'in these last days spoken to us by His Son.' Come on, the spiritual gifts were given after the Son came. The Son poured out the gifts of Ephesians 4:11 after the ascension, and before the ascension, He said He would send forth prophets.

zone · Sep 17, 2013

presidente said:

He did.

Matthew 23:34
33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? 34"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar

notuptome · Sep 17, 2013

BradC said:

That is an issue that you may have with them concerning the still small voice of God as some direct revelation, but for me it's about being led of God through the Spirit (God's breath). Being led of the Spirit does not add or take away from the scriptures we have been given. You are lumping me with others again. You also have to be careful that you do not take away from the scriptures as much as you chide others of adding to the scriptures. Omission is an example of taking away. The warning in the book of Revelation is clear to all. Would you want plagues to be added to you or have your part taken out of the book of life? Do neither by staying away from both unless of course you think your mature enough to handle all that because of your vast knowledge. Unless we are Spirit taught our knowledge is nothing to brag about.

We are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (God breathed as an exhale) and that is where being led of the Spirit comes in. I don't see that as being difficult and I do not see a revelation of God that might come to an individual in that leading, who is seeking God with all their heart, as misleading. The revelation through the Spirit will not be misplaced or magnified above the written word but will guide the believer into their call and work of faith and into the truth of Christ. Anytime God reveals something to the believer he is taking a risk because we are human and have frailties that just might include doing something with that revelation that was not intended. It happens just like lots of other things. Some people use too much toilet paper and clop it up making a mess of things. God did not tell them to use that much paper they just overlooked flushing the toilet have way through. See what I mean.

Jesus only spoke the things that the Father had given Him. The Holy Spirit only speaks the things that He has heard of the Father. God does not contradict Himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

SarahM777,

You probably know a lot more about Driscoll than I do. I saw his video on YouTube. He made a valid point and I posted it.

As far as something that says, "Jesus watches you download porn"-- I don't see a problem with that. That sounds like a good billboard. Reminding people that the Lord is watching them may make them think twice about sin. I don't care for the of the 'homeboy' t-shirt. I wouldn't wear that, but I am not going to call the man a 'false pastor' over that.

I don't know about him using cuss words. What did he say? Was it a real curse word, or a word that starts with c that's used for excrement? But when I don't believe most cuss words are 'cursing' in the Biblical sense. Telling someone to drop dead is a curse in the Biblical sense, but it doesn't use a cuss word. Telling someone to go to Hell is both. Saying blankety-blankety you sounds like a curse, but I haven't figured out what it means. Using an inappropriate word for poop is not cursing anyone. It's just culturally considered crude because French speaking Norse invaders treated the Anglo-Saxon words as low-class. Dutch missionaries I met once said they got flack for using that word in English. Their word that sounds like it isn't a curse word.

Anyway, I don't think pastors should use words like that, personally, but I wouldn't say a verse on cursing applies. Pastors who curse men without using 'profanity' need to heed the verse on cursing. You might say it is an issue of coarse language.

You seem to put people into two boxes, either perfect in their doctrine and life or else false. Is that the case? If you look at the Corinthians, they were believers and Paul said some good things about them, but he also corrected them for divisiveness, carnality, and even fornication and not rightly regarding the Lord's Supper. And when some of them were getting sick and falling asleep, they were being chastized that they might not be condemned with the world. A fornicator was to be delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the Spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So it's not just a case of someone with a problem being false and of the devil. Paul even felt it appropriate to correct Cephas in Antioch over the way he wasn't applying his doctrine to real-life situations.

If God judged you by the same standard-- if he saw that you were off doctrinally in some area you weren't aware of, and he declared you false over it, what would you think about that? The measure we mete has a lot to do with how we are judged, whether it be by God or others.

As far as sexual issues go, I haven't read his book, but I am not aware of his promoting sexual immorality. I was raised in a home where sex felt like a taboo subject, but I read the Old Testament, and I realized this wasn't a Christian ethic so much as it was a cultural one or one in our own household culture. The Torah mentions all kinds of sexual and personal things like sexual relations between married people, male body parts, circumcision, menstruation, incest, beastiality, and Moses was instructed to read the law to all Israelites of all ages, which would include the babies and small children. There is that Ezekiel prophecy that compares Israel's foreign lover's parts and emissions to those of donkeys and horses. If Driscoll is not crude yet by that standard, I can't see any reason to judge him. From what I know of him, he encourages frequent sex and sexual satisfaction in marriage and preaches against sex outside of marriage, and that sounds reasonable. You may know more sexual details about Driscoll's preaching.

I am not endorsing everything the man does. After posting that, I saw a video in which he was encouraging the same type of church policy about operating in the gift of prophecy that the OP of this thread quotes scripture against. So I am not endorsing all the man's teachings. But I do think he made a valid argument in the post I mentioned.

notuptome · Sep 17, 2013

presidente said:

Question remains would you recognize a valid biblical argument if it jumped up and bit you on the nose?
Spiritual gifts are still given to believers to serve the Lord. Just not tongues, prophecy and knowledge. Your definition of prophets is likely different from the prophets God is sending to the church today. As James stated a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

SarahM777 said:

I did not see the videos and I'm not sure where in the thread you are pointing. But not ceasing and restoring are not direct opposites. If gifts nearly 'died out' and were rare, and they are being restored to a greater fullness in the body, that is not a contradiction.

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

notuptome said:

I give a lot of Biblical arguments. You respond with personal attacks and quips like this. If you know a valid biblical argument, you could make one. You started out this thread arguing that tongues had to have people present who understood, which clearly violates the teaching of I Corinthians 14. If someone is wrong about something, okay, they need to learn. That's okay. We are all learning. But when you act like a know-it-all and then you insult other people, why displaying ignorance, it looks really bad. You could own it and say, you know I was wrong about tongues. Maybe I don't know everything.

I completely agree with that. There are all those other of the 9 gifts in chapter 9, and there are those gifts in Romans 12 and Ephesians 4. Ephesians 4 mentions evangelists, too. Gifts like serving, leadership, and showing mercy are important gifts. Paul lists teachers above workers of miracles in I Corinthians 12.

I also believe he gives tongues and prophecy. My real intention in posting the thread was to focus on order in the church meetings. I was hoping to get into what the passage says about the order of ministering the word in particular. But cessationists focus on tongues and prophecy and I joined the discussion. If your a cessationist, it's hard to move past those two points in the discussion.

Hold on a second. I thought you believed that tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were gone. Am I right on that, or did I misunderstand? If you do think prophecy is done away with, why would you believe there are still prophets?

Aside from the fact that just reading through I Corinthians 13, there are some reasons it can't refer to completion of the canon, I suspect John Calvin had another reason for seeing that was the case-- the ongoing ministry of prophecy. I believe prophecy can manifest itself in the pulpit, though scripture does not teach that the pulpit is ordained by God. Bible stands are nice to have, though.

And therefore the question is, do you believe the gift of prophecy ceased, or do you believe that the Lord still sends prophets today?

I am not double minded on believing in the gifts. I believe in the I Corinthians 12 gifts, the Romans 12 gifts, the I Peter 4 gifts, and the Ephesians 4 gifts.

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

zone said:

I have read the argument in this thread too that apostles were often persecuted. The people I suspect may be apostles seem to have some pretty rough challenges in life. One got run out of a country, almost killed on a train. But they aren't the NAR types, but rather church planting missionary types for the most part. I am not going to publish names of people like this. One man is doing some pretty sensitive unreached people group work and I am not putting his name on a search engine for the sake of posters looking for someone to criticize.

Be that as it may, many prophets in the Old Testament suffered. That doesn't mean God doesn't speak to people. Nathan was an adviser to the king. We don't know if he suffered. It is not recorded. Other prophets could face serious persecution for correcting a king. Micaiah and Jeremiah faced difficulties when confronting the powers that be. But Nathan pointed out David's adultery and he didn't get stoned, beaten, or killed. If Nathan had it pretty good, does that mean he wasn't a true prophet? That type of argument doesn't go over very well.

There are false prophets out there, and also carnal flaky Christians. And those who are true prophets also get a lot of criticism maybe even persecution from folks who think like you, anyway, so there is some suffering involved in that.

SarahM777 · Sep 17, 2013

presidente said:

When the people who said they were being restored said they ceased it sure is. And only because you didn't read it the first am I doing this again. A different one but still the same message.

[video=youtube;Azo7nWRXjYw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azo7nWRXjYw[/video]

SarahM777 · Sep 17, 2013

presidente said:

SarahM777,

You probably know a lot more about Driscoll than I do. I saw his video on YouTube. He made a valid point and I posted it.

As far as something that says, "Jesus watches you download porn"-- I don't see a problem with that. That sounds like a good billboard. Reminding people that the Lord is watching them may make them think twice about sin. I don't care for the of the 'homeboy' t-shirt. I wouldn't wear that, but I am not going to call the man a 'false pastor' over that.

I don't know about him using cuss words. What did he say? Was it a real curse word, or a word that starts with c that's used for excrement? But when I don't believe most cuss words are 'cursing' in the Biblical sense. Telling someone to drop dead is a curse in the Biblical sense, but it doesn't use a cuss word. Telling someone to go to Hell is both. Saying blankety-blankety you sounds like a curse, but I haven't figured out what it means. Using an inappropriate word for poop is not cursing anyone. It's just culturally considered crude because French speaking Norse invaders treated the Anglo-Saxon words as low-class. Dutch missionaries I met once said they got flack for using that word in English. Their word that sounds like it isn't a curse word.

Anyway, I don't think pastors should use words like that, personally, but I wouldn't say a verse on cursing applies. Pastors who curse men without using 'profanity' need to heed the verse on cursing. You might say it is an issue of coarse language.

You seem to put people into two boxes, either perfect in their doctrine and life or else false. Is that the case? If you look at the Corinthians, they were believers and Paul said some good things about them, but he also corrected them for divisiveness, carnality, and even fornication and not rightly regarding the Lord's Supper. And when some of them were getting sick and falling asleep, they were being chastized that they might not be condemned with the world. A fornicator was to be delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the Spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So it's not just a case of someone with a problem being false and of the devil. Paul even felt it appropriate to correct Cephas in Antioch over the way he wasn't applying his doctrine to real-life situations.

If God judged you by the same standard-- if he saw that you were off doctrinally in some area you weren't aware of, and he declared you false over it, what would you think about that? The measure we mete has a lot to do with how we are judged, whether it be by God or others.

As far as sexual issues go, I haven't read his book, but I am not aware of his promoting sexual immorality. I was raised in a home where sex felt like a taboo subject, but I read the Old Testament, and I realized this wasn't a Christian ethic so much as it was a cultural one or one in our own household culture. The Torah mentions all kinds of sexual and personal things like sexual relations between married people, male body parts, circumcision, menstruation, incest, beastiality, and Moses was instructed to read the law to all Israelites of all ages, which would include the babies and small children. There is that Ezekiel prophecy that compares Israel's foreign lover's parts and emissions to those of donkeys and horses. If Driscoll is not crude yet by that standard, I can't see any reason to judge him. From what I know of him, he encourages frequent sex and sexual satisfaction in marriage and preaches against sex outside of marriage, and that sounds reasonable. You may know more sexual details about Driscoll's preaching.

I am not endorsing everything the man does. After posting that, I saw a video in which he was encouraging the same type of church policy about operating in the gift of prophecy that the OP of this thread quotes scripture against. So I am not endorsing all the man's teachings. But I do think he made a valid argument in the post I mentioned.

Do some research. These are on going problems with someone who is a PASTOR. God holds pastors and teachers to a higher standard in case you didn't read it.

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

SarahM777 said:

9 minutes? I've got some real life things I need to do. How about giving me a summary of the key points or the minute to watch. Do they say that GOD SAID that gifts had ceased, through some sort of prophecy, or just that this was the belief of some early Pentecostals. Some Pentecostals thought there weren't gifts and they needed to be revived. So what? That just proves they weren't aware of history and didn't have the advantage of 21st century internet and history books to see that there were even contemporaries in their own time and decades before exercising certain spiritual gifts. If you've got a specific quote, feel free to share I don't have time to watch long video clips. Posts on here are time consuming enough without the external links. Maybe I'll listen a little if I do spreadsheet work today.

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Btw, I learned today that Calvinists like to wear T-shirts to church, especially T-shirts about Jesus watching people when they dowload porn. And they talk about sex a lot. Reformed people talk about sex a lot. That's what I learned. That's the approach to the Pentecostal and Charismatic movement I get on this forum. It's a doctrinal position, like Calvinism. If two people hold to it, it doesn't mean they go to the same church or have control over one another's beliefs or practices.

Stephen63 · Sep 17, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Let me get this straight......... Are you getting ready to make a point that if they are wrong in one are two places of their theology, or that one is wrong and the other is right, that a big portion of it is wrong? I'd just want to see the point you're trying to make. Make your point, and we'll go from there.

presidente · Sep 17, 2013

I'm watching the video. The commentator says that the Bible teaches that the gifts of the Spirit would cease, and quotes a verse about tongues (note the verse does not say the gifts of speaking in tongues) would cease. That verse does not say that the working of miracles, prophecy, divers healings, teaching, exhortation, or the other gifts would cease. Even if you accept her interpretation of what the words mean, she really overstates her case to an alarming extent.

She says Fletcher was the first person to use the term 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'. 'Baptized with the Holy Spirit' is in the Bible. Baptism is using a noun form. That's a pretty weak argument. She says Parham was the originator of the idea that speaking in tongues was the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Also she said that no one had spoken in tongues and thought it the evidence of Holy Spirit baptism until 1901. And no doubt people in the first century, like Peter, saw it as a kind of evidence. I don't agree with the 'initial evidence doctrine' but it existed at least in the 1830s before the Pentecostal movement. If this is an innovation, she's at least 80 years too late in her and she needs to check out some English churches in the 1830's. There were some people speaking in tongues in the US. I don't know if they believed in 'initial evidence.' The Fire-baptized folks believed in a 'baptism of fire' and some of them spoke in tongues. There was also speaking in tongues in a revival meeting in North Carolina on the border with Tennessee near Georgia maybe a decade earlier, and at least several decades before that, reports of churches with these spiritual gifts in Maine, speaking in tongues among Methodists a hundred years before the Topeka outpouring.

It is interesting that the Apostolic Faith newsletter said that April 9th was the birthdate of Pentecost for whatever group sent in a letter. I am assuming it wasn't Seymour who wrote that since the revival had been going for two years. This was probably a testimony written in. This website puts that at 14 Nissan. Some people say that's the date of the Lord's Supper or crucifixion.

The video quotes the LA Times as if it were authoritative. That paper was a persecutor of the movement.

You did a bait and switch on me here, and I ended up investing time in it. Where is the evidence in the video that people were saying that GOD SAID that the gifts had ceased, and other people were saying that God was saying that they hadn't? Some people coming into the experience of gifts of the Spirit who had never heard of them happening among contemporaries or recent history may have thought they ceased and were starting up again. But so what? So they hadn't read up on their history, back before Interlibrary loan, computer directories of books, and the Internet was available.

Stephen63 · Sep 17, 2013

I have a question. When you say Pentecostals say the gifts ceased, do you mean ceased by God, or ceased by man? It seems to me that should be important.

Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

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