Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

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B

BradC

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1 Corinthians 14:21
20Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. 22So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers


Jeremiah 5:15
People of Israel," declares the LORD, "I am bringing a distant nation against you-- an ancient and enduring nation, a people whose language you do not know, whose speech you do not understand.


Isaiah 28
Judgment on Ephraim and Jerusalem
1 Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,
and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!

2 Behold, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong;
like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest,
like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters,
he casts down to the earth with his hand.

3 The proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim
will be trodden underfoot;

4 and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,
which is on the head of the rich valley,
will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer:
when someone sees it, he swallows it
as soon as it is in his hand.

5 In that day the LORD of hosts will be a crown of glory,a
and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people,

6 and a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7 These also reel with wine
and stagger with strong drink;
the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,
they are swallowed byb wine,
they stagger with strong drink,
they reel in vision,
they stumble in giving judgment.

8 For all tables are full of filthy vomit,
with no space left.

9 “To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message?
Those who are weaned from the milk,
those taken from the breast?

10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little.”

11 For by people of strange lips
and with a foreign tongue
the LORD will speak to this people,

12 to whom he has said,
“This is rest;
give rest to the weary;
and this is repose”;
yet they would not hear.

13 And the word of the LORD will be to them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little,
that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.


THE PUNISHMENT ^^ << CAPTIVITY IN BABYLON


A Cornerstone in Zion
14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers,
who rule this people in Jerusalem!

15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
and with Sheol we have an agreement,
when the overwhelming whip passes through
it will not come to us,
for we have made lies our refuge,
and in falsehood we have taken shelter”;

16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am the one who has laidc as a foundation in Zion,
a stone, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation:
‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.’

17 And I will make justice the line,
and righteousness the plumb line;
and hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
and waters will overwhelm the shelter.”

18 Then your covenant with death will be annulled,
and your agreement with Sheol will not stand;
when the overwhelming scourge passes through,
you will be beaten down by it.

19 As often as it passes through it will take you;
for morning by morning it will pass through,
by day and by night;
and it will be sheer terror to understand the message

20 For the bed is too short to stretch oneself on,
and the covering too narrow to wrap oneself in.

21 For the LORD will rise up as on Mount Perazim;
as in the Valley of Gibeon he will be roused;
to do his deed—strange is his deed!
and to work his work—alien is his work!

22 Now therefore do not scoff,
lest your bonds be made strong;
for I have heard a decree of destruction
from the Lord GOD of hosts against the whole land.

23 Give ear, and hear my voice;
give attention, and hear my speech.

24 Does he who plows for sowing plow continually?
Does he continually open and harrow his ground?

25 When he has leveled its surface,
does he not scatter dill, sow cumin,
and put in wheat in rows
and barley in its proper place,
and emmerd as the border?

26 For he is rightly instructed;
his God teaches him.

27 Dill is not threshed with a threshing sledge,
nor is a cart wheel rolled over cumin,
but dill is beaten out with a stick,
and cumin with a rod.

28 Does one crush grain for bread?
No, he does not thresh it forever;e
when he drives his cart wheel over it
with his horses, he does not crush it.

29 This also comes from the LORD of hosts;
he is wonderful in counsel
and excellent in wisdom.

THE PROMISE ^ WITH ANOTHER WARNING ATTACHED < for the MOCKERS - who even when the PROMISE came to pass, they still MOCKED.


Isaiah 33:19
You will see those arrogant people no more, people whose speech is obscure, whose language is strange and incomprehensible. < release from Babylon, destruction of Babylon.


when they went HOME, were there STILL unbelievers even when Jesus was there?


1 Corinthians 14:21
20Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. 22So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers
Tongues are for a sign of what? What is the significance or the signature of the tongue to the unbeliever?
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Tongues are for a sign of what? What is the significance or the signature of the tongue to the unbeliever?
The verse says "even so they will not listen to Me". And in the example Paul gives, the unbeliever or uninstructed says 'ye are mad.'

On the day of Pentecost, scoffers accused the disciples of being drunk.
 

brmicke

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2012
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Great comment - so what was the sign to the unbelieving priests of Isaiah 28?

There are many levels of unbelief Jesus even accused the disciples of unbelief.

Jesus accused Peter of speaking for satan.

Just as we are accusing the pentacostals.
 
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brmicke

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Sep 6, 2012
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The sign to them Brad is that they are a foreigner to the believer and not a Christian.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
Aren't tongues and healing and prophecy things that one must believe through faith ?

Eph. 2:8 -- By grace are ye saved, through faith, and, that not of yourselves; it is a free gift of God, that no one should boast.

Hebrews 11 -- Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

:)
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Tongues are for a sign of what? What is the significance or the signature of the tongue to the unbeliever?
To the Jew judgment. Those who carried them away into captivity spoke languages, tongues, that the Jew did not understand.

Languages are first seen at Babel as a sign of judgment from God. God confused the languages of men because they were arrogant and defied God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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The verse says "even so they will not listen to Me". And in the example Paul gives, the unbeliever or uninstructed says 'ye are mad.'

On the day of Pentecost, scoffers accused the disciples of being drunk.
Scoffers or simply uninformed observers? Peter informs them about what is happening but he does not rebuke them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

brmicke

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2012
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In my opinion you are getting close to understanding brad. You posted Jer 5:15. The key however to understanding tongues can be seen in the preceding verse, Jer 5:14.

Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Jer 5:15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

It is a vaild scriptural concept to state that God uses His enemies to discipline His people. However in this case we are trying to figure out what speaking in tongues is.

We are not trying to figure out how God disciplines His people.

They are two valid and different doctrinal understandings.

Respectfully - Brian
 
Feb 21, 2012
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When God quits giving the gift of holy spirit - then and only then would the manifestation of the Spirit cease.

Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of holy spirit. Acts 2:38

Simon tried to purchase the power to give the holy spirit. . .But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. . . . .

While Peter yet spake these words the holy spirit fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of holy spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. . . .

Same gift that was given on Pentecost: Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God.

There is only ONE gift. . . .not nine. That one gift is the gift of holy spirit. This ONE gift given to EVERY born again believer has nine manifestations.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Every man with distinction. . .those born again who have received the gift of holy spirit. Then it list the NINE manifestations.

I agree scripture says prophecies shall fail, tongues will cease, and knowledge shall vanish away. All future events - future tense in Greek as well as in English is an anticipated action or a certain happening that will occur at some time in the future. And scripture tells us when that will occur . . . . NOW we know in part but when that which is perfect is come what we know in part will be done away. We do not see and know everything now but only in part but when that which is perfect is come. . .we shall no longer see through a glass darkly. . .we shall see face to face - we will know as we are known. (Thayer's Greek Lexicon. . .which that which is perfect is come - the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by the return of Christ.) This future event will happen when that which is perfect is come and we see face to face. . .propsopon - face (55x) person (7x) presence (7x) countenance (3x); the outward appearance of inanimate things (inanimate - scripture) (5x)
[Luke 12:56 face of the sky and earth; Luke 21:35 face of the whole earth; Acts 17:26 face of the earth; James 1:11 fashion of the flower of the grass; Rev. 20:11 face of the earth]

So it all boils down to how we perceive "when that which is complete" and we "see face to face". Some see scripture as that which is complete and ignore the rest . . . the fact that we do not see scripture face to face. I see Jesus Christ return as everything being complete and we will not need what we now have in part because we will see face to face and know even as we are known.
 

brmicke

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Sep 6, 2012
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Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Ac 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

There is a correlation between speaking the words of God and speaking the works of God.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Ac 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

There is a correlation between speaking the words of God and speaking the works of God.
Okay, but that doesn't prove that every time someone speaks the words of God, that He is speaking in a foreign language by the power of the Spirit. Glossalalia has a meaning. (It had a meaning in ancient Greek, and has one in academia.)

Btw, when people speak in tongues, how do you know they aren't speaking intelligibly from the perspective of others, but you are not able to understand? Maybe the same occurs when people tell you what tongues are, after all. Maybe you perceive the words of this post different from what they actually are.
 

brmicke

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Sep 6, 2012
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It is really difficult to stop traditional thought from entering your mind. I know this from experience. As you may or may not know I was a tongue talking (babbling) Pentecostal believer for 17 years.

I now understand that the foreign language concept of this doctrine is completely false. It should not even enter into the discussion of tongues. This is because there is a logical reason why The Jewish converts heard about the works of God in Acts 2.

The reason is given by Peter in His explanation of this event in Acts 2:17.

Peter said God was giving His Spirit to all flesh. So if all flesh or all nationalities were to receive the Spirit then people from all nationalities would understand the "works" of God and be empowered to speak about them. The converts to Judaism who heard the speakers would understand that a person no longer had to become a Jew (as they had) to understand the things of God.

Now the devout Jewish converts who heard the speakers (many of whom were devoted to the point of allowing themselves to be physically circumcised) understood that the Holy Spirit was now available to "all flesh" or all nationalities. People no longer had to become Jews to understand and speak of the "works" of God.

The devout Jewish proselytes (or converts to Judaism) heard the uncircumcised speakers speak of the works or truths of God, but they did not speak in Hebrew, they spoke in the native languages of the Jewish converts who were listening, and they spoke in the native languages which the converts to Judaism spoke in before they had received circumcision.

Peter in His explanation of this event said nothing about learning a new physical language, but He did speak about being enlightened to speak about the "works" of God by the Holy Spirit, who was now being given to all flesh that would call upon Jesus as Lord.

Otherwise how would the hearers know that the works of God were being discussed.

Respectfully - Brian
 
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presidente

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I now understand that the foreign language concept of this doctrine is completely false. It should not even enter into the discussion of tongues. This is because there is a logical reason why The Jewish converts heard about the works of God in Acts 2.
So why did Luke and Paul use the word glossalalia if they did not really mean glossalalia? Why did they use words that meant something else?

You could do the same thing with 'Thou shalt not commit adultery." Just say 'adultery' has a secret meaning that means don't eat fish on Friday.
 

brmicke

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Sep 6, 2012
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glossa simply means language in Greek.

I am not sure what you are asking, or whether you are sincere or mocking.

I'm sure you have access to all of the linguistic material I do via the internet. I can only assume then that you are trying to ask why does God conceal things instead of making them clear to all of us.

The answer is because God wants to do it that way --- I can't tell you why God does things the way He does - I simply want to try and know what God wants and then do it.

This May answer some questions -
Pr 25:2 ¶ It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (KJV)

God is making a bride or help-mate for His Son. He does not allow everyone to know Jesus. Only those who submit to His authority are allowed to understand. If you chose a bride for your son would you let any women off the street marry Him or would you devise some selection process?

Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
(KJV)

Your question is kind of like saying - well why does God not simply make everyone love Jesus.

Brian
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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The devout Jewish proselytes (or converts to Judaism) heard the uncircumcised speakers speak of the works or truths of God

what uncircumcised speakers.
the speakers were the same ones who were told to go wait in the city for the Power from On High.
the Disciples - all of the circumcision.

it was to THEM the promise went first.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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glossa simply means language in Greek.

I am not sure what you are asking, or whether you are sincere or mocking.
From what I've read from you earlier, it seems like you are saying that speaking in tongues is speaking the works of God in a way people can't understand, rather than speaking in different languages. Do I have that right? I was trying to point out the problem with that.

I'm sure you have access to all of the linguistic material I do via the internet. I can only assume then that you are trying to ask why does God conceal things instead of making them clear to all of us.
God has communicated in ways that people could not understand so that 'hearing they should hear and not understand' as Isaiah prophesied. I suppose speaking in tongues could fall into that larger category. But speaking in tongues is still speaking in languages.
 

presidente

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what uncircumcised speakers.
the speakers were the same ones who were told to go wait in the city for the Power from On High.
the Disciples - all of the circumcision.

it was to THEM the promise went first.
At least twelve of them were circumcised, or maybe 15 or 16 of them were circumcised. I suppose Barsabas and the Lord's brother's were circumcised. He had four brothers, but we don't know how many were there or if they were all still alive. James and Jude were apparently. But circumcision wouldn't have applied to the females. The one mentioned is Mary.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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At least twelve of them were circumcised, or maybe 15 or 16 of them were circumcised. I suppose Barsabas and the Lord's brother's were circumcised. He had four brothers, but we don't know how many were there or if they were all still alive. James and Jude were apparently. But circumcision wouldn't have applied to the females. The one mentioned is Mary.
of the circumcision...pleeze presidente.
Old Covenant jews. okay?
are you planning to undo all of Biblical history?
or do i have you confused with brian:confused:
 

brmicke

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2012
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what uncircumcised speakers.
the speakers were the same ones who were told to go wait in the city for the Power from On High.
the Disciples - all of the circumcision. it was to THEM the promise went first.
When Peter said in Acts 2:17 that this event called Pentecost was to signify that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh it stands to reason that there were people there who had not become Jews. If this were not the case How could Peter truthfully say that this event was an example of how God was going to start pouring out His Holy Spirit on "all flesh".

Ac 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Also consider that even before Peter made His explanation of the event in Acts 2:17 some of those who heard them said that there were Galileans in the group, Acts 2:7.

Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
(KJV)

Respectfully - Brian