can anyone interpret matthew 24 vs 30 and 31
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Yes, it denotes Christ reigning in his kingdom and coming upon the clouds of heaven in the Parousia which became shortly before the beginning of the seige of Jerusalem in A.D. 65, most probably on the Yom Yeruah (Day of Trumpets) in coming to John on Patmos. For even John writes in present tense (as of a then present reality) 'Behold, He is coming in the clouds and heaven and every Eye will see Him even those who pierced Him, and all peoples shall mourn over Him. Even so, amen.' Christ has been coming upon the clouds of heaven to gather his elect from the four winds since that time and it will be completed at the Appearence of the Son of Man in Glory with all His angels at the Last Day, at the Last Trumpet Blast.
These two verses began to be fulfilled shortly before the seige of Jerusalem in A.D. 65 as John wrote on the Isle of Patmos 'behold, he is coming in the clouds and every eye will see him.' John writes here in the present tense implying that the prophecy of Matthew 24 has begun. These verses will be completely fulfilled at the Last Day and the Last Trumpet. Christ has been coming on the clouds to gather his elect since the time of John writing on Patmos.
Dave,
I do believe that the HS teaches me as I study the Word. But I don't believe the HS teaches contrary views to other people. There is ONE WORD and ONE TRUTH. So, I never make the claim that I'm being divinely led in arguments with other Christians because to do so would mean I was declaring myself to be judge over which of us has received the truth and which hasn't. AND to invoke the HS guidance in an argument effectively declares the argument over and names yourself the winner as who can argue with God? This is why I asked you not to make such bold statements when you have a doctrinal disagreement with someone.
You asked me to show you were you teach differently than the Word of God. Let's just look at you post #77 as it is loaded with false beliefs. You can say that these are a matter of different interpretations if you want but again, there is only one correct belief for each of the points you make. So either I am right, you're right or neither is right. I will use scripture to argue against the 6 false statements I feel you make just in this one paragraph below.
FALSE STATEMENTS:
#1. The mystery of God is Jesus Rapturing His Church unto Himself
#2. That is what the prophets declared
#3. The mystery is when Christ appears and takes His Church, that mystery is finished.
#4. The bowls will then be poured out upon the Earth for the next 3 1/2 years
#5. At the end of the 3 1/2 years, there will be no more wicked people alive ANYWHERE
#6. (There) will be 144,000 that will repopulate the Earth during that thousand year reign of Christ on Earth
#1. The mystery mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 15:51 is NOT the rapture of the church. First, there is no rapture of the Church the way most people think of the rapture and Secondly, Paul states what the mystery is. Jesus didn't teach this so it was a mystery until Paul taught it. Now it is no longer a mystery.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Notice no reference of anyone going to heaven? Notice no mention of timing so this verse cannot be used in favor of a Pre-Trib Rapture.
#2. Name one prophet and provide one passage that clearly states the church will be Raptured off to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation or show one verse where two distinctly separate returns of Christ are mentioned. You can't because they don't exist. This Pre-Trib Rapture theory is a complete fabrication of man. In fact the Word warns and teaches against the notion.
#3. The mystery is finished when Christ appears, it has nothing to do with any Rapture of the Church.
Rev 10:7:
7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
We then see this in Rev 16:17:
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
No Raptured church mentioned. The mystery isn't done until the Second Advent - Day of the Lord. The 7th Bowl is poured into the air. Who is the Princess of the Power of the Air? Satan. Eph 2:2!! This completes the "enemies becoming the footstool" which I discuss next.
#4. The Bowls are not poured out after the 7th trumpet or after the Lord's return. Nothing tells us the correct order is Seal 1-7 followed by Trumpets 1-7 followed by Bowls 1-7. This would seem to be the logical order but it isn't the correct order. You have to know the whole Bible, not just read Revelation in a vacuum. You have to understand that the key to understand God's future plans is understanding how He did things in the past.
Heb 13:8: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
You also have to have a deep understanding of the use of Biblical numbers and symbolism to even start to grasp Revelation. I am far from understanding it all, but I do know this. All Bowls will be poured before Christ Returns.
Psalm 110:
1 A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
This phrase appears 6 other places in the Bible. Any time something is repeated, it's important. If it is repeated this many times you know it is extremely important. We are taught in Deuteronomy 17 that someone can only be put to death if there are 2-3 witnesses and that 1 is not enough. Here we have 6 witnesses and one of them is Christ himself.
This phrase alone destroys any Pre-Trib Rapture because Christ is to remain at His Father's right hand until His Father has made Christs' enemies His footstool. When and how does this happen? With the 7 bowls which are God's wrath and they are poured out specifically on Christ's enemies. His enemies are of course the False Christ, False Prophet/Beast and their Kingdom.
If you understand numbers you will know that the number 6 is the number of a man, of imperfection and of Satan. The number 7 is the number of perfection, completeness and associated with God. Therefore Seal 6, Trump 6 and Bowl 6 are all dealing with Satan. 6-6-6 is the time of Satan and all happen before any of the 7th seals, trumps or bowls. 7-7-7 are all of the Lord and describe his return. If you look carefully you will see that you have noises, thunderings, lightening, earthquakes and hail at the 7th trumpet AND 7th Bowl and you have everything but hail at the 7th Seal. Thunder is always used to describe the voice of God. Lightening describes how Christ returns. Earthquakes and hail have historically been means God has used to get our attention and/or to punish.
The third fact that proves the Lord doesn't return until the 7-7-7 is from Rev 16:15:
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
This passages comes after the description of the 6th Bowl but before the 7th Bowl. "Coming as a thief" is the same description given for the Lord's Second Return and appears 2 other places associated with His Second Advent Return. Pre-Tribbers like to argue that the Rapture is as a thief but the Second Advent Return is not. So clearly they are wrong.
#5. This statement is so false on so many levels. First, nobody is sent to Hell until after the millennium and after the die. Christ will kill a lot of bad people when He returns but they are limited to the armies and leaders of those who came against Israel. He doesn't kill ALL THE UNBELIEVERS. Those who believed in the Lord on Faith get caught up and transformed at His coming. When the Lord comes all knees will bow and every eye will see him. People will mourn when they see him because they were misled. Some will accept the Lord right then and there and live righteous lives in the millennium and receive salvation. Others will turn away from the Lord and do evil and ultimately go to hell. Zech 14 shows that wicked remain.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
#6. The 144,000 are believers. In fact there are the cream of the crop of believers. The notion that they are chosen after some make-believe Rapture is absurd. If you understand the description given that they are firstfruits and chosen you would understand that they were redeemed FIRST, BEFORE ANYONE ELSE from earth. They are sealed and protected from all the workings of the Beasts/Satan from their false teachings and religion. They are "virgins" which doesn't mean actual virgins but spiritual virgins. This means the 144K never followed any false God, religion or doctrine.
This is the group whom the Lord chose to do battle with Satan. Christ isn't going to select a bunch of brand new Christians who didn't make the cut for the Rapture who have no experience, no knowledge of His Word to go to war with. If you look back in the OT to Gideon, to Joshua etc any time you see a small band of solders to do a HUGE task, they are specially chosen.
The theme of spiritual virginity is used throughout Revelation. Jesus even uses it in His Olivet Discourse.
Mat 24:19:
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
The use of "woe" is a dire warning of a bad event to come on those being warned. You can equate it as a curse. Jesus isn't cursing those who are literally pregnant when he returns. Being given a child is a Blessing from God, not a curse. Jesus is referring to those who are not pure in him. In other words, those who have been pregnant with false teaching. The "nursing babies" is a reference to those even worse than pregnant. They are so far gone into Anti-Christ that they have "given birth" and are now feeding.
Harlotry is often associated with Idolatry in the Bible and especially in Revelation. The Woman on the Scarlet Beast, the Mother of all Harlots isn't a cheap New Orleans madam. She is the mother of all false religions and lies.
I hope this helps you Dave but I'm not going to hold my breath.
I do believe that the HS teaches me as I study the Word. But I don't believe the HS teaches contrary views to other people. There is ONE WORD and ONE TRUTH. So, I never make the claim that I'm being divinely led in arguments with other Christians because to do so would mean I was declaring myself to be judge over which of us has received the truth and which hasn't. AND to invoke the HS guidance in an argument effectively declares the argument over and names yourself the winner as who can argue with God? This is why I asked you not to make such bold statements when you have a doctrinal disagreement with someone.
You asked me to show you were you teach differently than the Word of God. Let's just look at you post #77 as it is loaded with false beliefs. You can say that these are a matter of different interpretations if you want but again, there is only one correct belief for each of the points you make. So either I am right, you're right or neither is right. I will use scripture to argue against the 6 false statements I feel you make just in this one paragraph below.
FALSE STATEMENTS:
#1. The mystery of God is Jesus Rapturing His Church unto Himself
#2. That is what the prophets declared
#3. The mystery is when Christ appears and takes His Church, that mystery is finished.
#4. The bowls will then be poured out upon the Earth for the next 3 1/2 years
#5. At the end of the 3 1/2 years, there will be no more wicked people alive ANYWHERE
#6. (There) will be 144,000 that will repopulate the Earth during that thousand year reign of Christ on Earth
#1. The mystery mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor 15:51 is NOT the rapture of the church. First, there is no rapture of the Church the way most people think of the rapture and Secondly, Paul states what the mystery is. Jesus didn't teach this so it was a mystery until Paul taught it. Now it is no longer a mystery.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Notice no reference of anyone going to heaven? Notice no mention of timing so this verse cannot be used in favor of a Pre-Trib Rapture.
#2. Name one prophet and provide one passage that clearly states the church will be Raptured off to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation or show one verse where two distinctly separate returns of Christ are mentioned. You can't because they don't exist. This Pre-Trib Rapture theory is a complete fabrication of man. In fact the Word warns and teaches against the notion.
#3. The mystery is finished when Christ appears, it has nothing to do with any Rapture of the Church.
Rev 10:7:
7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
We then see this in Rev 16:17:
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
No Raptured church mentioned. The mystery isn't done until the Second Advent - Day of the Lord. The 7th Bowl is poured into the air. Who is the Princess of the Power of the Air? Satan. Eph 2:2!! This completes the "enemies becoming the footstool" which I discuss next.
#4. The Bowls are not poured out after the 7th trumpet or after the Lord's return. Nothing tells us the correct order is Seal 1-7 followed by Trumpets 1-7 followed by Bowls 1-7. This would seem to be the logical order but it isn't the correct order. You have to know the whole Bible, not just read Revelation in a vacuum. You have to understand that the key to understand God's future plans is understanding how He did things in the past.
Heb 13:8: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
You also have to have a deep understanding of the use of Biblical numbers and symbolism to even start to grasp Revelation. I am far from understanding it all, but I do know this. All Bowls will be poured before Christ Returns.
Psalm 110:
1 A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."
This phrase appears 6 other places in the Bible. Any time something is repeated, it's important. If it is repeated this many times you know it is extremely important. We are taught in Deuteronomy 17 that someone can only be put to death if there are 2-3 witnesses and that 1 is not enough. Here we have 6 witnesses and one of them is Christ himself.
This phrase alone destroys any Pre-Trib Rapture because Christ is to remain at His Father's right hand until His Father has made Christs' enemies His footstool. When and how does this happen? With the 7 bowls which are God's wrath and they are poured out specifically on Christ's enemies. His enemies are of course the False Christ, False Prophet/Beast and their Kingdom.
If you understand numbers you will know that the number 6 is the number of a man, of imperfection and of Satan. The number 7 is the number of perfection, completeness and associated with God. Therefore Seal 6, Trump 6 and Bowl 6 are all dealing with Satan. 6-6-6 is the time of Satan and all happen before any of the 7th seals, trumps or bowls. 7-7-7 are all of the Lord and describe his return. If you look carefully you will see that you have noises, thunderings, lightening, earthquakes and hail at the 7th trumpet AND 7th Bowl and you have everything but hail at the 7th Seal. Thunder is always used to describe the voice of God. Lightening describes how Christ returns. Earthquakes and hail have historically been means God has used to get our attention and/or to punish.
The third fact that proves the Lord doesn't return until the 7-7-7 is from Rev 16:15:
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
This passages comes after the description of the 6th Bowl but before the 7th Bowl. "Coming as a thief" is the same description given for the Lord's Second Return and appears 2 other places associated with His Second Advent Return. Pre-Tribbers like to argue that the Rapture is as a thief but the Second Advent Return is not. So clearly they are wrong.
#5. This statement is so false on so many levels. First, nobody is sent to Hell until after the millennium and after the die. Christ will kill a lot of bad people when He returns but they are limited to the armies and leaders of those who came against Israel. He doesn't kill ALL THE UNBELIEVERS. Those who believed in the Lord on Faith get caught up and transformed at His coming. When the Lord comes all knees will bow and every eye will see him. People will mourn when they see him because they were misled. Some will accept the Lord right then and there and live righteous lives in the millennium and receive salvation. Others will turn away from the Lord and do evil and ultimately go to hell. Zech 14 shows that wicked remain.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
#6. The 144,000 are believers. In fact there are the cream of the crop of believers. The notion that they are chosen after some make-believe Rapture is absurd. If you understand the description given that they are firstfruits and chosen you would understand that they were redeemed FIRST, BEFORE ANYONE ELSE from earth. They are sealed and protected from all the workings of the Beasts/Satan from their false teachings and religion. They are "virgins" which doesn't mean actual virgins but spiritual virgins. This means the 144K never followed any false God, religion or doctrine.
This is the group whom the Lord chose to do battle with Satan. Christ isn't going to select a bunch of brand new Christians who didn't make the cut for the Rapture who have no experience, no knowledge of His Word to go to war with. If you look back in the OT to Gideon, to Joshua etc any time you see a small band of solders to do a HUGE task, they are specially chosen.
The theme of spiritual virginity is used throughout Revelation. Jesus even uses it in His Olivet Discourse.
Mat 24:19:
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
The use of "woe" is a dire warning of a bad event to come on those being warned. You can equate it as a curse. Jesus isn't cursing those who are literally pregnant when he returns. Being given a child is a Blessing from God, not a curse. Jesus is referring to those who are not pure in him. In other words, those who have been pregnant with false teaching. The "nursing babies" is a reference to those even worse than pregnant. They are so far gone into Anti-Christ that they have "given birth" and are now feeding.
Harlotry is often associated with Idolatry in the Bible and especially in Revelation. The Woman on the Scarlet Beast, the Mother of all Harlots isn't a cheap New Orleans madam. She is the mother of all false religions and lies.
I hope this helps you Dave but I'm not going to hold my breath.
G
[ Order of Events ] ( NOT an exhaustive list )
~ tribulation period starts
Matthew 24:21
Mark 13:19
Luke 21:22
~ Christians martyred during the tribulation period
Revelation 12:11
Revelation 13:7-8,15
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 20:4
~ tribulation period ends
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
~ two witnesses; trumpet events
Revelation 11:3-13
Revelation 8:7-13; 9:1-3
~ Christ returns ( 'post-trib' or 'pre-wrath' )
Acts 2:20
Matthew 24:30
Mark 13:26
Luke 21:27
Revelation 14:14
Revelation 19:11-13,15
1 Thessalonians 4:16
~ Rapture
Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:27
Revelation 14:16
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
~ Wrath of God
Revelation 14:17-20
Revelation 19:15
Revelation 16
~ tribulation period starts
Matthew 24:21
Mark 13:19
Luke 21:22
~ Christians martyred during the tribulation period
Revelation 12:11
Revelation 13:7-8,15
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 20:4
~ tribulation period ends
Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
~ two witnesses; trumpet events
Revelation 11:3-13
Revelation 8:7-13; 9:1-3
~ Christ returns ( 'post-trib' or 'pre-wrath' )
Acts 2:20
Matthew 24:30
Mark 13:26
Luke 21:27
Revelation 14:14
Revelation 19:11-13,15
1 Thessalonians 4:16
~ Rapture
Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:27
Revelation 14:16
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
~ Wrath of God
Revelation 14:17-20
Revelation 19:15
Revelation 16
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Hi GRA, Glad to see you are still alive, LOL.
Are you still saying the Bowls are after Christ returns? I hate to disagree with you because we see eye to eye on pretty much everything else. I am hoping to convince you that the Bowls are indeed all poured out BEFORE the end of the 7th Trumpet and the return of Christ. Please consider these facts and tell me how I am seeing it wrong. Thanks my dear Brother.
1. Footstool reference I believe is compelling. It is used 7 times that I am aware of in the Bible. God's Tribulation Wrath are the bowls. God directs them specifically at the Beast and His kingdom. The Anti-Christ "claiming to be Christ" has to be the enemy(ies) of Christ referenced here.
2. Rev 16:15: "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
This passage is AFTER Bowl 6 but before Bowl 7. If the Lord already returned, why are we told that he is still coming as a thief? If he was here already, would it be possible for Him to go anywhere on earth as a thief? Also, we see the reference to "watch" which is the same instruction we get in Mark 13:33-35, Luke 21:36, 1 Thes 5:6 and in Rev 3:3. We aren't going to be watching anymore is Jesus is already here.
3. If the Bowls were AFTER the Lord returns then the Bowls cannot be part of the Great Tribulation because Jesus tells us specifically that He returns AFTER the Tribulation, Mark 13:24, Mat 24:29, etc. It would seem very strange that God's wrath judgments would not be part of the Tribulation.
4. The 6-6-6 timing of Satan and 7-7-7 timing of the Lord as I discussed in length elsewhere is compelling. We have noises, thunderings, lightenings, and earthquakes in each of: 7th seal, 7th Trump and 7th Bowl. We have noises, thunderings, lightenings, and earthquakes with the addition of hail in the 7th Trump and 7th Bowl. This tells us that the 7th seal comes before the other two 7s. Thunder almost always represents the voice of God, noises come from heaven. Jesus' return is like lightening, etc.
5. Bowl 7 is poured into the air. When this happens, we see "It is Done!" Rev 16:17. Who is the Prince of the Power of the Air? Satan. This is significant. Then the very next verse, Rev 16:18 talks about the noises, thunderings, lightenings and great earthquake which I believe is the Lord actually returning.
6. Rev 15:8:
8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Christ is the high priest, Heb 6:20 and head of the church, (Ephesian the whole book). So we can't enter the "temple" until He is here. I think this passage may be symbolic of this.
Are you still saying the Bowls are after Christ returns? I hate to disagree with you because we see eye to eye on pretty much everything else. I am hoping to convince you that the Bowls are indeed all poured out BEFORE the end of the 7th Trumpet and the return of Christ. Please consider these facts and tell me how I am seeing it wrong. Thanks my dear Brother.
1. Footstool reference I believe is compelling. It is used 7 times that I am aware of in the Bible. God's Tribulation Wrath are the bowls. God directs them specifically at the Beast and His kingdom. The Anti-Christ "claiming to be Christ" has to be the enemy(ies) of Christ referenced here.
2. Rev 16:15: "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
This passage is AFTER Bowl 6 but before Bowl 7. If the Lord already returned, why are we told that he is still coming as a thief? If he was here already, would it be possible for Him to go anywhere on earth as a thief? Also, we see the reference to "watch" which is the same instruction we get in Mark 13:33-35, Luke 21:36, 1 Thes 5:6 and in Rev 3:3. We aren't going to be watching anymore is Jesus is already here.
3. If the Bowls were AFTER the Lord returns then the Bowls cannot be part of the Great Tribulation because Jesus tells us specifically that He returns AFTER the Tribulation, Mark 13:24, Mat 24:29, etc. It would seem very strange that God's wrath judgments would not be part of the Tribulation.
4. The 6-6-6 timing of Satan and 7-7-7 timing of the Lord as I discussed in length elsewhere is compelling. We have noises, thunderings, lightenings, and earthquakes in each of: 7th seal, 7th Trump and 7th Bowl. We have noises, thunderings, lightenings, and earthquakes with the addition of hail in the 7th Trump and 7th Bowl. This tells us that the 7th seal comes before the other two 7s. Thunder almost always represents the voice of God, noises come from heaven. Jesus' return is like lightening, etc.
5. Bowl 7 is poured into the air. When this happens, we see "It is Done!" Rev 16:17. Who is the Prince of the Power of the Air? Satan. This is significant. Then the very next verse, Rev 16:18 talks about the noises, thunderings, lightenings and great earthquake which I believe is the Lord actually returning.
6. Rev 15:8:
8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Christ is the high priest, Heb 6:20 and head of the church, (Ephesian the whole book). So we can't enter the "temple" until He is here. I think this passage may be symbolic of this.
This is what God told me, should i believe people or God? Should i believe you over what God has told me? If i lie, then let me burn in Hell for enterity. But if i tell you the the Truth, and you do not believe it, then you do not believe God who told me these things. He has told me and revealed to me, what is going to happen in the Future, i know what is to come, i know what Tribulations will come upon the Earth, i know what the mark of the Beast, and how it will come about, i know the understanding of prophesies. HOW do i know all these things. NOT from my own understanding or from my own learning nor from my own personal beliefs. i KNOW these things because it is what God told me, and told me to teach these things to a generation who will not hear it. What i teach is not from me, what i teach is what He told me to teach. if you do not believe it then you do not believe Him who told me these things. Again, what i teach will contradict any Scriptures, what i teach contradict mens belief of what the Scriptures say. You are right, there is only one Truth, that Truth comes from God. God chooses even today His prophets. Is it not written in the last days your sons and daughters shall prophesize. Therefore they come prophesizing but who will believe them, because what they teach will not be what the world is teaching. What i teach is from God, i am not trying to win some contest as you are suggesting, as if by me saying it is from God to override what others are teaching. i am saying it is from God because that is the Truth, it is from God and not from me. Is it God's fault you do not believe God speaks to people any more? If i tell you the Truth, and you will not hear it, why is that? If what i teach contradicts Scriptures, then show the Scriptures. NOT your belief what they mean, but the Scriptures that plainly contradict what i teach. i assure you it is Jesus Christ who has revealed to me what i teach. If you do not believe me, then you do not believe Him who told me these things. i am not saying that to win an argument. i am saying that because it is the Truth.
^i^
^i^
Know you not that the world rejects the Truth. Jesus Christ was killed because other people did not believe what He was teaching. The Disciples of Jesus who were led by the Holy Spirit were also killed because of what they taught. The prophets of old, were in a like manner killed because of what they were told to say as well. So then how is it a strange thing with you, that if the Holy Spirit were to speak today that it would right along with the views of people today? i will tell you the Truth, if Jesus were to walk the Earth today teaching even as He did then, it would be contrary to the views of people today. People in this generation make excuses for their sinning. Jesus teaches "Go and Sin no more" This generation doesn't believe that is possible, and worse then that, they don't believe they should cease from sinning. They believe they are under Grace which means it is OK for them to sin. If Jesus were walking this Earth and say to you this day "Go and Sin no more" you would not believe anything else that comes out of His mouth, because that belief is contrary to the views of people today. The Same person who revealed to me the future and what is to come, also told me "There is no sin that a person does that they can't cease from" Does that sound like a demon to you? Woe to this generation, it is because of views of this generation, that many will weep and gnash their teeth. Because they did not cease from their sinning, but continued to live in sin, and still think they are Heaven bound, based on all the false teachings of the views of the people today. Nay, i will believe what God has told me, to what the entire world views is the Truth. Here is the Truth, which the same who revealed to me what i teach told me over and over and over again. LOVE ONE ANOTHER. weigh on one hand how much you do for self, and on the other hand how much you do for others. LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
And what if you are being divinely led, then what? Would you take the credit for what you teach to yourself, or give it to whom gave it to you? What God does not divinely lead anyone anymore?
You have made it a competition, i have not done this. i merely told you the Truth, where i got my information. i was not trying to win an argument or any such nonsense. Truthfully, what is it to me, if you believe what i teach or not believe it? i would that all believe what i teach, because i KNOW it is not from me, but from God. But God has already told me when i was a child, that most will not believe what i tell them concerning the Truth. i even asked Him, why teach it to them then? He said "So they will have no cloak for their sins, they will not be able to stand before me on Judgement Day and plead ignorance, that they did not know" Then i understood. i am not hear to convince anyone of the Truth, or try to win any argument. i have told you the Truth, if you reject that Truth, then that is on you. i have done what God told me to do, and i have told you what He has told me, therefore i am doing what i am called to do. i don't care to win any arguments. Think about it, if i was into winning arguments, i would not say "God told me", that sound crazy even saying it. BUT if its True, then it is the Truth, and one should hearken to those who hear from God. Yes, many can say "God told them" and satan does this, to prevent people from believing those who God really does talk to and communicate with, great tactic on the devils part, it works. Get many false people saying "God told me" so to make void the one who God actually does talk to.
Anyway, believe what you want, i have told you what He has told me. believe it or not, that is up to you.
^i^
And what if you are being divinely led, then what? Would you take the credit for what you teach to yourself, or give it to whom gave it to you? What God does not divinely lead anyone anymore?
You have made it a competition, i have not done this. i merely told you the Truth, where i got my information. i was not trying to win an argument or any such nonsense. Truthfully, what is it to me, if you believe what i teach or not believe it? i would that all believe what i teach, because i KNOW it is not from me, but from God. But God has already told me when i was a child, that most will not believe what i tell them concerning the Truth. i even asked Him, why teach it to them then? He said "So they will have no cloak for their sins, they will not be able to stand before me on Judgement Day and plead ignorance, that they did not know" Then i understood. i am not hear to convince anyone of the Truth, or try to win any argument. i have told you the Truth, if you reject that Truth, then that is on you. i have done what God told me to do, and i have told you what He has told me, therefore i am doing what i am called to do. i don't care to win any arguments. Think about it, if i was into winning arguments, i would not say "God told me", that sound crazy even saying it. BUT if its True, then it is the Truth, and one should hearken to those who hear from God. Yes, many can say "God told them" and satan does this, to prevent people from believing those who God really does talk to and communicate with, great tactic on the devils part, it works. Get many false people saying "God told me" so to make void the one who God actually does talk to.
Anyway, believe what you want, i have told you what He has told me. believe it or not, that is up to you.
^i^
G
Yes - of course...
"The more I read what you have written lately -- the more I am not so sure..."
I believe Christ will return AT 'the sounding of the 7th trumpet'.
"I believe that you are over-analyzing the patterns in the bark on the trees without realizing what the whole forest looks like..."
Biblical prophesy is not written in a verse-by-verse play-by-play sort of way.
Please stop running from tree to tree -- back up and view the whole forest...
"The more I read what you have written lately -- the more I am not so sure..."
I believe Christ will return AT 'the sounding of the 7th trumpet'.
"I believe that you are over-analyzing the patterns in the bark on the trees without realizing what the whole forest looks like..."
Biblical prophesy is not written in a verse-by-verse play-by-play sort of way.
Please stop running from tree to tree -- back up and view the whole forest...
To ALL:
I have to split this in two. This is an email I sent to my pastor. It's long but explains everything...
Hi Pastor John,
I am feeling like we are in Acts 2:17 which makes me an old man, LOL. Things are popping into my head almost by the hour, new revelations and such. I want your take on the below strictly from a scriptural prospective to make sure the "wrong" spirits aren't at work here. What I am about to share with you is a matter of life or death and I'm not exaggerating!! I am not crazy, misguided, spiritually deprived or given to self-importance. If you read this and allow your heart to be open, nothing will bless you more as a Christian, other than salvation itself.
The Rapture doctrine is a lie, it is from Satan. Nowhere is the Rapture taught in the Bible. There isn't a single Rapture lesson that can be found. Jesus certainly never taught it and according to Mark 13:23 Jesus said, "But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand." This passage appears in the middle of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus is discussing the appearance of Antichrist. Jesus later says in John 15:15, "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you." But if you look at all the Words of Jesus you will only see Him discussing ONE RETURN and that return is clearly AFTER the Tribulation. Nowhere does Jesus teach the Rapture concept. In fact there is not a single passage anywhere in the Bible that teaches 1) two returns of Christ, 2) a return BEFORE the Tribulation or 3) shows the Raptured Church in heaven during the tribulation.
The Rapture theory attempts to clear up supposed "discrepancies" or "conflicts" in the Bible but it really creates them because the Bible is worded perfectly with no need to be "corrected" by any doctrine or theory such as Dispensationalism. The biggest problem leading to creation of the Rapture theory is a fundamental lack of understanding concerning the Tribulation, Resurrection and God's plan for the Church.
Once the Tribulation is understood and defined, then it because crystal clear when the Lord returns and it resolves all "conflicts" that the Rapture doctrine supposedly solves.
Let's clear up what the Great Tribulation is then we can discuss timing:
Tribulation = (2347) thlipsis from root (2346) thlibo: to crowd, afflict, narrow, throng, persecution, suffer trouble.
In the context of Revelation, we know that John also calls it, "The hour of temptation" Rev 3:10.
Temptation = (3986) peirasmos; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline of provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation x try.
If we look at Rev 2:22 we see John tell the church, "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. [SUP]23 [/SUP]I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts"
"Great Tribulation" appears just three times in the Bible (KJV). Mat 24:21, Rev 2:22 and to describe the multitudes in heaven, Rev 7:14.
Once you understand what the Tribulation is and what it's purpose is, there can be no doubt about what the Rapture is and when it is. For those who think the Tribulation is a period where mountains are being cast into the sea, trees and grass getting burned up, asteroid attacks, oceans turning to blood, sun and moon turning black from massive volcanic eruptions, huge pits billowing smoke, literal locusts attacking men, etc., have got this 100% WRONG!!!! We have the beginnings of sorrows which last up to the Abomination of Desolation, during this time we have the seduction of man. The first 4 trumpets represent Satan's deceiving us but I won't cover that here.
The great tribulation, as Jesus and John call it, is simply the TEMPTATION OF ANTI-CHRIST. It is as John says in Rev 3:10, "[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
The whole world (not just the world that is left after a supposed Rapture) will have to chose between the Anti-Christ and the Real Messiah. When Jesus came, most of His people rejected Him as the true Messiah. He will test the world 2,000 years later to see who can discern between the Antichrist/Satan and HIMSELF. Those that fail the test will be slaughtered. This is not fiction or an overstatement. This slaughter is FACT. After the slaughter of 1/3 of the entire population, and a period of A/C rule, God will pour out HIS bowls of wrath on the Beast and Satan's kingdom. That is the Tribulation in a nut shell. After that, Jesus' "enemies will indeed become His footstool" by the Bowls of God's Wrath and He will return, thus fulfilling Psalm 110.
None of God's ELECT will endure God's Wrath. God has NEVER removed a group from earth to protect them, not even for the flood when He destroyed the whole earth. He didn't rapture Lot, Rahab or the Jews from the Passover in Egypt. In every case, instructions were to be obeyed on how to escape HIS wrath. So to Rapture a group off to heaven would be completely unprecedented and unnecessary and God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow; AND so is Satan and His methods.
The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 Bowls are NOT all part of the Tribulation, they are NOT all from God, and they are NOT all literal. Satan's time is at the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, 6th Bowl or another way of saying it is Satan's time is 6-6-6. But the Lord's time is 7-7-7. But that is a whole separate topic.
All the symbolism of Revelation dealing with the Harlot, fornication, the 144,000 being virgins, etc speak to IDOLATRY not sexual impropriety. Jesus uses this same symbolism in Mat 24:19, "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" This has nothing to do with literal pregnant women or nursing mothers, as a child is a gift from God, not a curse. Also, nobody can help if they are pregnant when this time comes. When Jesus returns, he expects to find his virgin bride, not those who have been worshiping Anti-Christ. This point is so important to understand!!!!
The 144,000 are the ELECT, they are the cream of the crop of all Christians, the "firstfruits redeemed from men." They are spiritually virgin, not having believed in false religions, gods, or doctrines. The 144K are the one's Jesus goes to battle with (Joel Chapter 2), not some weak, recent converts not worthy of the Rapture, thus having been "left behind." The fact that these 144K are still on earth alone destroys there being an earlier Rapture. 1 Cor 15:20-24 teaches us the correct order.
Read Mat 24:15-26 in the correct light of what the purpose of the Tribulation really is and you will see how very clear it becomes and how much the Lord warns us about the False One:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, (OR GREAT TEMPTATION FROM ANTI-CHRIST/SATAN) such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders (REV 13:13) to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
Therefore there is no rapture of the church before this HOUR OF TEMPTATION. If there was, the whole world would not be tempted. If there was a Rapture, Jesus' warnings would be meaningless and the whole Book of Revelation would be meaningless to end times Christians. GOD will test the whole world to see who will follow the Anti-Christ and who will reject the A/C and wait for the real Messiah to return. PAUL GIVES THE SAME ORDER AND WARNING IN 2 THES 2. John gives the same order in Revelation if you know what to look for.
After this "TEST" or "TEMPTATION" the Christian population will be decimated as we will see in a few paragraphs. The 144K will be left and perhaps others who are not part of the 144K but are part of the ELECT who knew the truth. That is why Paul uses the phrase, "Alive and remain." This phrase implies a small group that survived something terrible. At some point after this "test", God will pour out HIS WRATH on the BEAST and his KINGDOM, Rev 16. After God has made Christ's enemies "His Footstool" Christ will return. This is what most call the Rapture. But nobody is getting "raptured" off to heaven. First, most Christians fail the test and are in heaven already. The rest, HIS ELECT, receive glorified bodies and remain on earth and become teachers and priests and reign with Christ during the Millennium.
What I am about to tell you will really make you think I am crazy, but this is absolutely scriptural and will come to pass. Those who fail this test, will be KILLED, slaughtered actually - and I'll prove it!! Those that think the real Christ comes first will be far more susceptible than those who believe in Post Trib. Ask yourself this, if the Rapture is not taught in the Bible, than who is behind it? There is only one possible answer.
If Satan is behind the Rapture then clearly God cannot be happy with anyone who believes it let alone teaches it. You will not lose you salvation but you will get a quick ticket to heaven, but not by a glorious Rapture as most think.
Yes, "failed" saints go to heaven. They accepted Christ as savior therefore they are saved even though they failed the "test/temptation" and "went out" when Jesus told them not to. They believed in Satan's Rapture doctrine thinking the first "Christ" to appear would be the real Christ rather than believing the Word as written. They are the ones slaughtered by A/C and in heaven by Rev 7, as the great multitude who, "Came out of the Great Tribulation." This will be most of the "church" thus the church isn't mentioned again until the Trib is over.
What are we told about this "Great Multitude?" They will no longer "hunger", "thirst", "be scorched" or "cry". Pay close attention to the order given. Also know these are spiritual terms in use here. Also remember Paul's lesson of the Olive Tree in Romans 11. This is very important. Just as some of us are grafted in, many will be ungrafted along with unbelieving Jews. Paul warns us specifically about this and warns us not to get haughty thinking we (the Church) are better than the Jews.
Rev 7:
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
There isn't supposed to be tears in heaven but this group was crying and it wasn't because they endured all kinds of terrible things on earth. We have a witness to this. Look at this group in Isaiah 65 contrasted to the ELECT. Compare the order given highlighted for these two groups below and above:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore I will number you for the sword,
And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
Because, when I called, you did not answer;
When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight. (SATAN'S LIE)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Behold, My servants shall eat,
But you shall be hungry;
Behold, My servants shall drink,
But you shall be thirsty;
Behold, My servants shall rejoice,
But you shall be ashamed;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,
But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,
And wail for grief of spirit.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen;
For the Lord God will slay you,
And call His servants by another name; (SEE REV 2:17)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So that he who blesses himself in the earth
Shall bless himself in the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Shall swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My eyes.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, (THEY WERE CRYING IN OLD JERUSALEM)Nor the voice of crying."
Here is where we see them slaughtered. This is the "Hour of Temptation" John mentions in Rev 3:10. This is the warning Jesus gives in Mat 24:21-26.
Rev 9:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed...
I'm not making any bold assertions here but these colors are the exact colors of Pope Francis' crest. Pope Francis is already speaking of accepting of gays, atheists, and working towards a one-world religion.
Yes, the ELECT are the ones who get caught up and changed. Only the Elect are left when Christ returns. Paul includes himself in this group thinking it would happen in his lifetime. Christ returns on white horse, Rev 19:11. Then we see who Jesus brings with him.
Rev 20:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Those who believe in the Rapture and "Go out" they believed Satan's lie and while they did not worship Satan, they lost their spiritual virginity. Thus they are NOT invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and thus they remain with GOD in heaven for one heaven day which is 1,000 earth years. (See 2 Peter 3:8)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
We see this same lesson and order of resurrection given by Paul in 1 Cor 15:20-24. Now look at the supposed key Rapture passage in the correct light. Someone went to a lot of trouble over this Rapture doctrine and it includes a BIG incorrect interpretation.
I have to split this in two. This is an email I sent to my pastor. It's long but explains everything...
Hi Pastor John,
I am feeling like we are in Acts 2:17 which makes me an old man, LOL. Things are popping into my head almost by the hour, new revelations and such. I want your take on the below strictly from a scriptural prospective to make sure the "wrong" spirits aren't at work here. What I am about to share with you is a matter of life or death and I'm not exaggerating!! I am not crazy, misguided, spiritually deprived or given to self-importance. If you read this and allow your heart to be open, nothing will bless you more as a Christian, other than salvation itself.
The Rapture doctrine is a lie, it is from Satan. Nowhere is the Rapture taught in the Bible. There isn't a single Rapture lesson that can be found. Jesus certainly never taught it and according to Mark 13:23 Jesus said, "But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand." This passage appears in the middle of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus is discussing the appearance of Antichrist. Jesus later says in John 15:15, "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you." But if you look at all the Words of Jesus you will only see Him discussing ONE RETURN and that return is clearly AFTER the Tribulation. Nowhere does Jesus teach the Rapture concept. In fact there is not a single passage anywhere in the Bible that teaches 1) two returns of Christ, 2) a return BEFORE the Tribulation or 3) shows the Raptured Church in heaven during the tribulation.
The Rapture theory attempts to clear up supposed "discrepancies" or "conflicts" in the Bible but it really creates them because the Bible is worded perfectly with no need to be "corrected" by any doctrine or theory such as Dispensationalism. The biggest problem leading to creation of the Rapture theory is a fundamental lack of understanding concerning the Tribulation, Resurrection and God's plan for the Church.
Once the Tribulation is understood and defined, then it because crystal clear when the Lord returns and it resolves all "conflicts" that the Rapture doctrine supposedly solves.
Let's clear up what the Great Tribulation is then we can discuss timing:
Tribulation = (2347) thlipsis from root (2346) thlibo: to crowd, afflict, narrow, throng, persecution, suffer trouble.
In the context of Revelation, we know that John also calls it, "The hour of temptation" Rev 3:10.
Temptation = (3986) peirasmos; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline of provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation x try.
If we look at Rev 2:22 we see John tell the church, "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. [SUP]23 [/SUP]I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts"
"Great Tribulation" appears just three times in the Bible (KJV). Mat 24:21, Rev 2:22 and to describe the multitudes in heaven, Rev 7:14.
Once you understand what the Tribulation is and what it's purpose is, there can be no doubt about what the Rapture is and when it is. For those who think the Tribulation is a period where mountains are being cast into the sea, trees and grass getting burned up, asteroid attacks, oceans turning to blood, sun and moon turning black from massive volcanic eruptions, huge pits billowing smoke, literal locusts attacking men, etc., have got this 100% WRONG!!!! We have the beginnings of sorrows which last up to the Abomination of Desolation, during this time we have the seduction of man. The first 4 trumpets represent Satan's deceiving us but I won't cover that here.
The great tribulation, as Jesus and John call it, is simply the TEMPTATION OF ANTI-CHRIST. It is as John says in Rev 3:10, "[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
The whole world (not just the world that is left after a supposed Rapture) will have to chose between the Anti-Christ and the Real Messiah. When Jesus came, most of His people rejected Him as the true Messiah. He will test the world 2,000 years later to see who can discern between the Antichrist/Satan and HIMSELF. Those that fail the test will be slaughtered. This is not fiction or an overstatement. This slaughter is FACT. After the slaughter of 1/3 of the entire population, and a period of A/C rule, God will pour out HIS bowls of wrath on the Beast and Satan's kingdom. That is the Tribulation in a nut shell. After that, Jesus' "enemies will indeed become His footstool" by the Bowls of God's Wrath and He will return, thus fulfilling Psalm 110.
None of God's ELECT will endure God's Wrath. God has NEVER removed a group from earth to protect them, not even for the flood when He destroyed the whole earth. He didn't rapture Lot, Rahab or the Jews from the Passover in Egypt. In every case, instructions were to be obeyed on how to escape HIS wrath. So to Rapture a group off to heaven would be completely unprecedented and unnecessary and God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow; AND so is Satan and His methods.
The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 Bowls are NOT all part of the Tribulation, they are NOT all from God, and they are NOT all literal. Satan's time is at the 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, 6th Bowl or another way of saying it is Satan's time is 6-6-6. But the Lord's time is 7-7-7. But that is a whole separate topic.
All the symbolism of Revelation dealing with the Harlot, fornication, the 144,000 being virgins, etc speak to IDOLATRY not sexual impropriety. Jesus uses this same symbolism in Mat 24:19, "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!" This has nothing to do with literal pregnant women or nursing mothers, as a child is a gift from God, not a curse. Also, nobody can help if they are pregnant when this time comes. When Jesus returns, he expects to find his virgin bride, not those who have been worshiping Anti-Christ. This point is so important to understand!!!!
The 144,000 are the ELECT, they are the cream of the crop of all Christians, the "firstfruits redeemed from men." They are spiritually virgin, not having believed in false religions, gods, or doctrines. The 144K are the one's Jesus goes to battle with (Joel Chapter 2), not some weak, recent converts not worthy of the Rapture, thus having been "left behind." The fact that these 144K are still on earth alone destroys there being an earlier Rapture. 1 Cor 15:20-24 teaches us the correct order.
Read Mat 24:15-26 in the correct light of what the purpose of the Tribulation really is and you will see how very clear it becomes and how much the Lord warns us about the False One:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, (OR GREAT TEMPTATION FROM ANTI-CHRIST/SATAN) such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders (REV 13:13) to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
Therefore there is no rapture of the church before this HOUR OF TEMPTATION. If there was, the whole world would not be tempted. If there was a Rapture, Jesus' warnings would be meaningless and the whole Book of Revelation would be meaningless to end times Christians. GOD will test the whole world to see who will follow the Anti-Christ and who will reject the A/C and wait for the real Messiah to return. PAUL GIVES THE SAME ORDER AND WARNING IN 2 THES 2. John gives the same order in Revelation if you know what to look for.
After this "TEST" or "TEMPTATION" the Christian population will be decimated as we will see in a few paragraphs. The 144K will be left and perhaps others who are not part of the 144K but are part of the ELECT who knew the truth. That is why Paul uses the phrase, "Alive and remain." This phrase implies a small group that survived something terrible. At some point after this "test", God will pour out HIS WRATH on the BEAST and his KINGDOM, Rev 16. After God has made Christ's enemies "His Footstool" Christ will return. This is what most call the Rapture. But nobody is getting "raptured" off to heaven. First, most Christians fail the test and are in heaven already. The rest, HIS ELECT, receive glorified bodies and remain on earth and become teachers and priests and reign with Christ during the Millennium.
What I am about to tell you will really make you think I am crazy, but this is absolutely scriptural and will come to pass. Those who fail this test, will be KILLED, slaughtered actually - and I'll prove it!! Those that think the real Christ comes first will be far more susceptible than those who believe in Post Trib. Ask yourself this, if the Rapture is not taught in the Bible, than who is behind it? There is only one possible answer.
If Satan is behind the Rapture then clearly God cannot be happy with anyone who believes it let alone teaches it. You will not lose you salvation but you will get a quick ticket to heaven, but not by a glorious Rapture as most think.
Yes, "failed" saints go to heaven. They accepted Christ as savior therefore they are saved even though they failed the "test/temptation" and "went out" when Jesus told them not to. They believed in Satan's Rapture doctrine thinking the first "Christ" to appear would be the real Christ rather than believing the Word as written. They are the ones slaughtered by A/C and in heaven by Rev 7, as the great multitude who, "Came out of the Great Tribulation." This will be most of the "church" thus the church isn't mentioned again until the Trib is over.
What are we told about this "Great Multitude?" They will no longer "hunger", "thirst", "be scorched" or "cry". Pay close attention to the order given. Also know these are spiritual terms in use here. Also remember Paul's lesson of the Olive Tree in Romans 11. This is very important. Just as some of us are grafted in, many will be ungrafted along with unbelieving Jews. Paul warns us specifically about this and warns us not to get haughty thinking we (the Church) are better than the Jews.
Rev 7:
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. [SUP]16 [/SUP]They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
There isn't supposed to be tears in heaven but this group was crying and it wasn't because they endured all kinds of terrible things on earth. We have a witness to this. Look at this group in Isaiah 65 contrasted to the ELECT. Compare the order given highlighted for these two groups below and above:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore I will number you for the sword,
And you shall all bow down to the slaughter;
Because, when I called, you did not answer;
When I spoke, you did not hear,
But did evil before My eyes,
And chose that in which I do not delight. (SATAN'S LIE)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Behold, My servants shall eat,
But you shall be hungry;
Behold, My servants shall drink,
But you shall be thirsty;
Behold, My servants shall rejoice,
But you shall be ashamed;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,
But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,
And wail for grief of spirit.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen;
For the Lord God will slay you,
And call His servants by another name; (SEE REV 2:17)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So that he who blesses himself in the earth
Shall bless himself in the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Shall swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My eyes.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, (THEY WERE CRYING IN OLD JERUSALEM)Nor the voice of crying."
Here is where we see them slaughtered. This is the "Hour of Temptation" John mentions in Rev 3:10. This is the warning Jesus gives in Mat 24:21-26.
Rev 9:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. [SUP]18 [/SUP]By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed...
I'm not making any bold assertions here but these colors are the exact colors of Pope Francis' crest. Pope Francis is already speaking of accepting of gays, atheists, and working towards a one-world religion.
Yes, the ELECT are the ones who get caught up and changed. Only the Elect are left when Christ returns. Paul includes himself in this group thinking it would happen in his lifetime. Christ returns on white horse, Rev 19:11. Then we see who Jesus brings with him.
Rev 20:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Those who believe in the Rapture and "Go out" they believed Satan's lie and while they did not worship Satan, they lost their spiritual virginity. Thus they are NOT invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and thus they remain with GOD in heaven for one heaven day which is 1,000 earth years. (See 2 Peter 3:8)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
We see this same lesson and order of resurrection given by Paul in 1 Cor 15:20-24. Now look at the supposed key Rapture passage in the correct light. Someone went to a lot of trouble over this Rapture doctrine and it includes a BIG incorrect interpretation.
1 Thes 4:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(NOTICE IT IS GOD WHO IS BRINGING THOSE WHO SLEEP IN JESUS. GOD RETURNS AFTER THE MILLENNIUM WITH THE NEW HEAVEN. THUS THOSE ASLEEP COME BACK LATER. THIS IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THOSE WHO REST. THERE WILL BE TWO GROUPS IN HEAVEN, THOSE WHO SLEEP AND THOSE WHO ARE RESTING)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent* them which are asleep.
[*THE NKJV USES "PRECEDE" instead of PREVENT BUT BOTH ARE WRONG!! THE WORD, "PREVENT" IS USED 6 TIMES IN THE KJV, ALL IN THE OT AND EACH TIME THE HEBREW TRANSLATION GIVEN IS "QADIM" 6923. BUT HERE, THE ONLY TIME THIS WORD IS USED IN THE NT, THE GREEK WORD NAQOD, 5348, MEANS: [FROM AN UNUSED ROOT MEANING, TO MARK (BY PUNCTURE OR BRANDING); SPOTTED - SPECKLED]. NAQOD SHOULD NOT BE TRANSLATED "PREVENT" OR "PRECEDE" - NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE CORRECT MEANING.
WHAT PAUL SEEMS TO BE SAYING IS FIRST HE CONSIDERED HIMSELF IN THE GROUP OF ELECT, WHICH WILL REMAIN ON EARTH UNTIL THE LORD'S RETURN. SECOND PAUL SEEMS TO BE SAYING THAT THE GROUP LEFT IN HEAVEN WHO THE LORD DOESN'T BRING BACK WITH HIM IN THE NEXT VERSE, GOD WILL BRING WITH HIM WHEN GOD RETURNS. PAUL SAYS, "THE GROUP THAT RETURNS WITH GOD WE SHOULD NOT BRAND AS SPECKLED, OR AS BLEMISHED SHEEP." WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE A WORD MAKES!!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
THE DEAD IN CHRIST HERE IS TRANSLATED PERFECTLY AND MEANS THOSE WHO DIED IN CHRIST, NOT THE ANTICHRIST.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD.
IT IS THE ELECT WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN AFTER THE TRIBULATION. THERE ARE TWO GROUPS CLEARLY DEFINED AS "CHRISTIANS WHO DIE" DURING THE TRIBULATION AND THEY CERTAINLY SEEM TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY, AT LEAST FOR THE MILLENNIUM. THE FIRST GROUP IS THE GREAT MULTITUDE THAT FELL FOR THE DECEPTION OF THE A/C AND HIS RAPTURE DOCTRINE. THE SECOND GROUP IS REFERENCED IN REV 14:12-13. THESE ARE THE ONES OF WHICH IS SAID, "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on..." THERE WAS NO BLESSING MENTIONED FOR THE MULTITUDE. THESE WHO DIE "FROM NOW ON" MUST BE THE SAME ONES WHO ARE MENTIONED IN REV 20 WHO RETURN WITH THE LORD, THE BEHEADED MARTYRS, OR THOSE WHO DIDN"T WORSHIP THE BEAST. THUS IT IS THIS GROUP AND PERHAPS ALL OTHER MARTYRS IN HEAVEN THAT RULE DURING THE MILLENNIUM WITH THE ELECT WHO REMAINED UNTIL THE LORD COMES.
I could go into a bunch of other conflicts of the Rapture doctrine such as Zech 13 mentioning 2/3 of the Jews being cut off, 1/3 being saved. What about the Messianic Jews living in Israel, they represent 2% of the Jewish Nation? Shouldn't they have been raptured? So their fate isn't mentioned. Or we could talk about the "Staying at the right hand until the enemies are made your footstool" which appears 7 times in the Bible!! How can Jesus leave for a Rapture if God doesn't make His enemies His footstool until the Bowl Judgments? The list goes on and on. But the key thing to remember is Antichrist means "in place of Christ", not opposite of Christ. Antichrist has to come first or nobody would believe him if they saw the real Christ in all His glory appearing first.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(NOTICE IT IS GOD WHO IS BRINGING THOSE WHO SLEEP IN JESUS. GOD RETURNS AFTER THE MILLENNIUM WITH THE NEW HEAVEN. THUS THOSE ASLEEP COME BACK LATER. THIS IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THOSE WHO REST. THERE WILL BE TWO GROUPS IN HEAVEN, THOSE WHO SLEEP AND THOSE WHO ARE RESTING)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent* them which are asleep.
[*THE NKJV USES "PRECEDE" instead of PREVENT BUT BOTH ARE WRONG!! THE WORD, "PREVENT" IS USED 6 TIMES IN THE KJV, ALL IN THE OT AND EACH TIME THE HEBREW TRANSLATION GIVEN IS "QADIM" 6923. BUT HERE, THE ONLY TIME THIS WORD IS USED IN THE NT, THE GREEK WORD NAQOD, 5348, MEANS: [FROM AN UNUSED ROOT MEANING, TO MARK (BY PUNCTURE OR BRANDING); SPOTTED - SPECKLED]. NAQOD SHOULD NOT BE TRANSLATED "PREVENT" OR "PRECEDE" - NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE CORRECT MEANING.
WHAT PAUL SEEMS TO BE SAYING IS FIRST HE CONSIDERED HIMSELF IN THE GROUP OF ELECT, WHICH WILL REMAIN ON EARTH UNTIL THE LORD'S RETURN. SECOND PAUL SEEMS TO BE SAYING THAT THE GROUP LEFT IN HEAVEN WHO THE LORD DOESN'T BRING BACK WITH HIM IN THE NEXT VERSE, GOD WILL BRING WITH HIM WHEN GOD RETURNS. PAUL SAYS, "THE GROUP THAT RETURNS WITH GOD WE SHOULD NOT BRAND AS SPECKLED, OR AS BLEMISHED SHEEP." WHAT A HUGE DIFFERENCE A WORD MAKES!!
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
THE DEAD IN CHRIST HERE IS TRANSLATED PERFECTLY AND MEANS THOSE WHO DIED IN CHRIST, NOT THE ANTICHRIST.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD.
IT IS THE ELECT WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN AFTER THE TRIBULATION. THERE ARE TWO GROUPS CLEARLY DEFINED AS "CHRISTIANS WHO DIE" DURING THE TRIBULATION AND THEY CERTAINLY SEEM TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY, AT LEAST FOR THE MILLENNIUM. THE FIRST GROUP IS THE GREAT MULTITUDE THAT FELL FOR THE DECEPTION OF THE A/C AND HIS RAPTURE DOCTRINE. THE SECOND GROUP IS REFERENCED IN REV 14:12-13. THESE ARE THE ONES OF WHICH IS SAID, "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on..." THERE WAS NO BLESSING MENTIONED FOR THE MULTITUDE. THESE WHO DIE "FROM NOW ON" MUST BE THE SAME ONES WHO ARE MENTIONED IN REV 20 WHO RETURN WITH THE LORD, THE BEHEADED MARTYRS, OR THOSE WHO DIDN"T WORSHIP THE BEAST. THUS IT IS THIS GROUP AND PERHAPS ALL OTHER MARTYRS IN HEAVEN THAT RULE DURING THE MILLENNIUM WITH THE ELECT WHO REMAINED UNTIL THE LORD COMES.
I could go into a bunch of other conflicts of the Rapture doctrine such as Zech 13 mentioning 2/3 of the Jews being cut off, 1/3 being saved. What about the Messianic Jews living in Israel, they represent 2% of the Jewish Nation? Shouldn't they have been raptured? So their fate isn't mentioned. Or we could talk about the "Staying at the right hand until the enemies are made your footstool" which appears 7 times in the Bible!! How can Jesus leave for a Rapture if God doesn't make His enemies His footstool until the Bowl Judgments? The list goes on and on. But the key thing to remember is Antichrist means "in place of Christ", not opposite of Christ. Antichrist has to come first or nobody would believe him if they saw the real Christ in all His glory appearing first.
Yes - of course...
"The more I read what you have written lately -- the more I am not so sure..."
I believe Christ will return AT 'the sounding of the 7th trumpet'.
"I believe that you are over-analyzing the patterns in the bark on the trees without realizing what the whole forest looks like..."
Biblical prophesy is not written in a verse-by-verse play-by-play sort of way.
Please stop running from tree to tree -- back up and view the whole forest...
"The more I read what you have written lately -- the more I am not so sure..."
I believe Christ will return AT 'the sounding of the 7th trumpet'.
"I believe that you are over-analyzing the patterns in the bark on the trees without realizing what the whole forest looks like..."
Biblical prophesy is not written in a verse-by-verse play-by-play sort of way.
Please stop running from tree to tree -- back up and view the whole forest...
G
I view the Great Tribulation as being "dished out" by Satan - not God ( not part of the 'Wrath of God' ) --- and, it does not include any part of the events of the 'trumpets' or 'vials' in Revelation. I believe the Great Tribulation ends before any of the 'trumpets' or 'vials' events unfold --- 'trumpets' ( 1-6 ) before the return of Christ, 'vials' after the return of Christ.
You know fro all that do believe, God said he would never leave us or forsake us. I am content, in the midst of all tribulation, why?
Because Christ overcame the world. so can we rejoice in the midst?
[h=3]John 16:33[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Because Christ overcame the world. so can we rejoice in the midst?
[h=3]John 16:33[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
I view the Great Tribulation as being "dished out" by Satan - not God ( not part of the 'Wrath of God' ) --- and, it does not include any part of the events of the 'trumpets' or 'vials' in Revelation. I believe the Great Tribulation ends before any of the 'trumpets' or 'vials' events unfold --- 'trumpets' ( 1-6 ) before the return of Christ, 'vials' after the return of Christ.
Rev 16:
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. 17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
Jesus obviously hasn't come yet by the 6th Bowl.
BTW, the first 5 trumpets are figurative/spiritual. They represent Satan misleading the world. None of the events in the first 4 trumpets have a parallel in the Olivet Discourse if the trumpets were literal. However, I think the 5-6th trumpet could very well be paralleled by Mat 15-26. I agree the first 6 Trumpets are of Satan.
What i teach does not contradict ANY Scriptures, if you think so, then show what i have taught and the verse that contradicts it. You will not be able to do this, because it is not True. What i teach contradicts what you believe, not what Scriptures teach. What i teach contradicts what you interpret verses to mean. But Scriptures are clear. interpretations belong to God, not to men. Scriptures interprets Scriptures. yet this generation like to interpret by their own understanding, what they think it means, what they want it to mean. Interpretations belong to God, not to men. What i teach is from God, i teach nothing contrary to Scriptures. you will not be able to show even one verse that contradicts what i teach. So you can say that i teach contrary to the Word of God, yet you have not shown even one example of this, why? because you can't. So i will continue to believe God who taught me these things, you continue to believe your own intellect. That is your choice.
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