LOSING SALVATION POSSIBLE OR NOT POSSIBLE ???

[clayservant]

Again, Christ speaks and warns of the possibility of losing Salvation in parables, saying,

This is not about salvation , this is about receiving the WORD OF GOD into your hearts and obeying it.

 

[1disciple]

As tragic as a Christian losing their salvation is one who believes in Christ that thought he was saved and was not saved because he had been severed through practicing Iniquity. These are people who are even believers and confess the Lord Jesus as Lord.

Again, Christ in the sermon on the mount relates the astonishment at the judgement of heaven that these types of people will have on the last day, saying:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -- Matt. 7:22-24

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You guys are wasting your time.

1disciple is a disciple of the pharisees, Not of Christ. He would reject Christ's teaching also if Christ were here today.

 

[1disciple]

Again, Christ speaks of the possibility of losing salvation in the analogy of the wicked servant who did not watch.

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -- Matt. 24:45-51

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Quote Originally Posted by 1disciple View Post
Again, Paul talks about the Life and Salvation being conditioned upon walking according to the Spirit and not according to the Flesh. For he writes to the Christians in Rome, saying,

And so to be a Son of God and to have Life implies a continual walk according to the Spirit. Paul flatly tells the Christians at Rome that if they keep living according to the Flesh, they will die. This is not refering to physical death, but spiritual and second death. These are not unsaved people, but the people of the Church of Rome.

Interpretation. we are under law, not under grace!

Have fun trying to earn your gift. Make sure you tell God all those mighty works you did in his name/

Just don;t get mad when he tells you to depart for HE NEVER KNEW YOU

How is walking by the spirit being under the law? That is self-contradictory.

 

[1disciple]

The Pharisees were a group of Jewish elitists who did not think they could lose salvation. They thought they were chosen and saved simply by virtue of their being Jewish. The choice of God to save them had already been made. However, John, coming in the Spirit as the forerunner of Christ, began to correct this very conception, saying,

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. -- Matt. 3:7-10

 

[clayservant]

it is funny how some people preach that you cannot save yourself or you cannot make yourself good enough for salvation, it is all by the cross and what christ did it is not what WE do that we receive salvation. BUT they turn around and say you can lose your salvation by SOMETHING YOU DO, now which is it folks? either salvation is only by Jesus blood and what he did on the cross or we can EARN our salvation? you cannot have it both ways.

I am waiting for an answer ?

 

[vic1980]

I would refer you to...

2Pet. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Rom. 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

2Pet. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of rightousness,than,after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

what is the holy commandment delivered unto them,is it the knowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior ?

 

[vic1980]

2Pet. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of rightousness,than,after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

what is the holy commandment delivered unto them,is it the knowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior ?

It must be the Good news yes

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Quote Originally Posted by clayservant View Post
it is funny how some people preach that you cannot save yourself or you cannot make yourself good enough for salvation, it is all by the cross and what christ did it is not what WE do that we receive salvation. BUT they turn around and say you can lose your salvation by SOMETHING YOU DO, now which is it folks? either salvation is only by Jesus blood and what he did on the cross or we can EARN our salvation? you cannot have it both ways.

I am waiting for an answer ?

Jesus can do everything in the world and heaven for someone, but if that someone turns his back on him, Jesus can do nothing for him.

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-13​

 

[vic1980]

Jesus can do everything in the world and heaven for someone, but if that someone turns his back on him, Jesus can do nothing for him.

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-13​

Amen that is thee truth

 

[1disciple]

I'll go ahead an do a recap of this study so I can blog it for students interested in doing their own study.

There are several references in Scripture to people who were once saved and fell from that salvation.

Just one of many is found in 2 Pet. 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

You see that they had once been 'bought', ransomed, purchased. And yet through heresy and denial of the Truth of the Covenant, they bring Perdition upon themselves. The only thing required to lose Covenant Salvation is to deny the Covenant and be unfaithful to it.

Covenant involves two, not one. We stand by Faith. And when that Faith is no longer there, we no longer stand.

Salvation is conditional. The condition is faithfulness to the covenant even as Christ was faithful to the covenant.

But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. - Heb. 3:6

Again, Paul writes to Christians in Jerusalem in the Letter to the Hebrews, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" -- Heb. 3:12-14

Paul applies the lessons learned of the Jews loosing their Salvation to all Christians as well, and entreats them never to harden their hearts against God as the children of Israel had done in the Wilderness, nor to lose Faith and be deceived through sin. For Salvation is conditioned upon our holding fast to the Confidence in Christ firmly to the End.

Salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon Faith. It is conditioned upon Faithfulness.

There is no such thing as unconditional salvation or unconditional love. For all things are conditional based upon the conditions of our choices and our will to respond and receive the truth and salvation of Christ. As it is at the beginning of the salvific walk so it is till the end. A personal decision.

Again, Paul writes to Timothy (a Christian and saved), saying, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" -- 2 Tim. 2:12

So we see how many 'ifs' Scripture using in explaining the conditions of Salvation. NT Salvation is wholly conditional upon faith and faithfulness because Convenant involves two, not one.

Again, Paul writing to the Corinthian Christians (who were in a saved condition) openly states that it is possible to receive the Grace of God that results in futility because of the failure to remain faithful in the New Covenant. And so he entreats them to hold steady in the Grace of God that they had formerly received.

We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) -- 2 Cor. 6:1-2

Furthermore, that salvation is conditional upon man's freewill is clear from Rev. 22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

If it is conditioned upon 'whosoever will', then the Elect of God are those who choice by freewill.

Again, Paul styles those who were once in a state of salvation, but have failed the test as Reprobates. They were banished once by breaking the law, and yet again they have become 'probates', according to its true and denotative meaning of castaway.

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? -- 2 Cor. 13:5

However, the greatest example of how one may remain in Christian Salvation or fall from Christian Salvation is given by Christ in the parable. Here Christ speaks of some who were once attatched to the Vine of Christ, but produced bad fruit. They were therefore 'cut off', cast away and summarily burnt in the pires of the autumn harvest.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.-- John 15:6

We can see how important human freewill is in our faith-conditional salvation through grace. Jesus states that it is those who will to do the Thelema Theou (Will of God) who will know of His Teaching.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. -- John 7:17

Again, the Gospels reveal over and over the conditional nature of Salvation based upon remaining faithful to the end.

For example, Mark 13:13 reads "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

This then implies that the one who does endure to the end shall not be saved.

Another issue that can cause people to lose their Salvation is to begin twisting Scripture and teaching false doctrines. Salvation is conditioned upon remainful faithful in the truthful proclamation of the Good Current of Christ.

Peter speaks of some in his time who had brought destruction upon themselves by simply twisting Apostle Paul's Epistles to suit their own ends.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. -- 2 Peter 3:16

Christ is very bold in his proclamation in Revelation and grants the victory only to the Victor through faithful endurance.

Seven time in Revelation Christ states "To him that overcometh". We overcome and win the Victory of Salvation just as Christ overcame and won the Victory of Salvation. For Christ states, As I overcame, so he shall overcome. And it is by Fidelity to the Covenant to the End.

So, basically, salvation is conditional on faith and faithfulness. And it can be lost or maintained through faithfulness of unfaithfulness to the Covenant.

John relates as much in Revelation 17:14 writing "καὶ οἱ μετ’ αὐτοῦ κλητοὶ καὶ ἐκλεκτοὶ καὶ πιστοί".

Again, Paul writes of the salvation that is based upon continual and enduring Faith in writing to the Roman Christians, saying,

αλλα τι λεγει εγγυς σου το ρημα εστιν εν τω στοματι σου και εν τη καρδια σου τουτ εστιν το ρημα της πιστεως ο κηρυσσομεν οτι εαν ομολογησης εν τω στοματι σου κυριον ιησουν και πιστευσης εν τη καρδια σου οτι ο θεος αυτον ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων σωθηση καρδια γαρ πιστευεται εις δικαιοσυνην στοματι δε ομολογειται εις σωτηριαν λεγει γαρ η γραφη πας ο πιστευων επ αυτω ου καταισχυνθησεται --Romans 10:8-11

However, what does [the Scripture] say? "The Utterance is near you; in your Mouth and in your Heart": this is the Utterance of the Faith that we are Preaching--that if you kept confessing the Lord Jesus with your Mouth and kept believing in your Heart that the Deity raised Him from the Dead, you will be saved. For the Heart keeps believing leading to Justification, and confession keeps being made leading to Salvation. For the Scripture states that all who are believing upon Him shall not be put to Shame.

So you see how Paul entreats to the Christians who had once believed in and confessed Christ to keep believing and confessing, for this would result in their Justification and Salvation. This is a lifelong path and stairway to Heaven by Faith in Jesus Christ.

Again, Paul talks about the Life and Salvation being conditioned upon walking according to the Spirit and not according to the Flesh. For he writes to the Christians in Rome, saying,

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to keep living after the flesh. For if you keep living after the Flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as keep being led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. -- Rom. 8:13-14
And so to be a Son of God and to have Life implies a continual walk according to the Spirit. Paul flatly tells the Christians at Rome that if they keep living according to the Flesh, they will die. This is not refering to physical death, but spiritual and second death. These are not unsaved people, but the people of the Church of Rome.

Again, in the Epistle to the Church at Ephesus, Paul entreats the saved through Grace by Faith Christians to not take part in the practices of those who suffer the wrath of God lest they sever themselves from the Kingdom of God and their salvation by sin.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. -- Eph. 5:3-7

Among the Christians at Galatia, there were some who, once believing and accepting the salvation in Christ by Grace through Faith, had begun to err from the Faith in trying to be justified by keeping the Law to the extent that they had actually been severed from Christ and Grace. They had fallen from any benefit of salvation that Christ might have given them because they were no longer being Faithful to the Covenant of Grace in Christ.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. -- Galatians 5:1-6

Again, Christ speaks and warns of the possibility of losing Salvation in parables, saying,

Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. -- Matt. 13:3-9

As tragic as a Christian losing their salvation is one who believes in Christ that thought he was saved and was not saved because he had been severed through practicing Iniquity. These are people who are even believers and confess the Lord Jesus as Lord.

Again, Christ in the sermon on the mount relates the astonishment at the judgement of heaven that these types of people will have on the last day, saying:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -- Matt. 7:22-24

Again, Christ speaks of the possibility of losing salvation in the analogy of the wicked servant who did not watch.

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -- Matt. 24:45-51

The Pharisees were a group of Jewish elitists who did not think they could lose salvation. They thought they were chosen and saved simply by virtue of their being Jewish. The choice of God to save them had already been made. However, John, coming in the Spirit as the forerunner of Christ, began to correct this very conception, saying,

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. -- Matt. 3:7-10

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Salvation is conditional. It is conditioned upon Faith. It is conditioned upon Faithfulness.

I have to take issue with this. Salvation is not conditional upon faithfulness. It is conditional upon patient endurance.

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-1

In your patient endurance you possess your souls. Luke 21:19​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How is walking by the spirit being under the law? That is self-contradictory.

Yes it is. So why is disciple here trying to equate the two as requirement for salvation>

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus can do everything in the world and heaven for someone, but if that someone turns his back on him, Jesus can do nothing for him.

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-13​

Again John answers this in his epistle.

Those who deny Christ were never of us, they left, denying Christ. If they were of us, they WOULD HAVE REMAINED WITH US (never denied Christ)

 

[felicecan]

salvation is a one-time thing but then...only a genuine faith saves.

 

[konroh]

I love 2 Timothy 2:12-13 because it says that even when we are unfaithful (break the covenant) He remains faithful. What does it mean to deny Him? I agree it means that we don't endure, but then what does it mean that He denies us? Not that He breaks covenant with us, but He breaks some of the blessings of the covenant with us, like reigning with Him, it just said that in the previous verse. If we endure, we will reign, if we deny (don't endure) He will deny (reigning blessings), but He will be faithful to us no matter what!

 

[1disciple]

I love 2 Timothy 2:12-13 because it says that even when we are unfaithful (break the covenant) He remains faithful. What does it mean to deny Him? I agree it means that we don't endure, but then what does it mean that He denies us? Not that He breaks covenant with us, but He breaks some of the blessings of the covenant with us, like reigning with Him, it just said that in the previous verse. If we endure, we will reign, if we deny (don't endure) He will deny (reigning blessings), but He will be faithful to us no matter what!

If you don't reign with him, you won't be with him. The only people who are saved and in heaven are those who reign with Him forever and ever.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. -- Rev. 22:5

 

[vic1980]

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen , and faithful.

titus 2:11

God's Grace Brings Salvation

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

God bless

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I love 2 Timothy 2:12-13 because it says that even when we are unfaithful (break the covenant) He remains faithful. What does it mean to deny Him? I agree it means that we don't endure, but then what does it mean that He denies us? Not that He breaks covenant with us, but He breaks some of the blessings of the covenant with us, like reigning with Him, it just said that in the previous verse. If we endure, we will reign, if we deny (don't endure) He will deny (reigning blessings), but He will be faithful to us no matter what!

I think being denied by the lord falls more along these lines. Keep in mind the first verse was in a message to a church:

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

For whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of this person when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26​