What Laws are still valid to christians

[KohenMatt]

should gentiles (or anyone today) be circumcised?

I would say yes. Because Jesus never said not to, and He told us to follow the Torah.
And as always, not for anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness.

 

[KohenMatt]

Because he was under the old covenant. It was the law of the covenant.

So the God who wrote the Law was "under the old covenant" yet somehow says we shouldn't be "under the old covenant", yet He still tells us to follow the Law?

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

I would say yes. Because Jesus never said not to, and He told us to follow the Torah.
And as always, not for anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness.

So all that saga with the apostles in the church at Jerusalem, the issues Paul raised with the Galations, etc. were just to muddy the waters, in your expert opinion? Sort of to keep Christians on their toes, to see if they'd miss it?

 

[zone]

I would say yes. Because Jesus never said not to, and He told us to follow the Torah.
And as always, not for anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness.

if you're not following the Torah for "anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness", why do you think men should be circumcised?

Matt, i'm concerned you're playing with fire.
tacking on 'not for anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness' after teaching people they are under the Law (which is what you do teach.....otherwise you'd never suggest circumcision for any reason) doesn't help the new believer understand.

 

[4enlightment]

When we were a child, we followed rules for our benefit to help us; but when we became adults, we need no more laws to follow because we know what is better for us to do in certain situations. Having one day out of a week to completely rest on that day is good for the body and having to focus on God without any disturbances. But now we should know when our bodies need rest and how to focus on God as a part of our daily lives. Laws are made for the immature ones that need to be guided, but later on they should of branched from the laws into knowing about keeping things in harmony. But when you mature physically but not mentally; makes a person still a slave that need the laws to help guide them and they must mature from them. Eating without washing your hands isn't going to condemn a person to death, but it should help prevent them from getting an infection but it all depend on the situation that they are in. People need to use common sense for certain situations that is inline with peace and harmony, but if it is not, then they are neglecting the laws which is loving and understanding thy neighbors.

Matthew 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

 

[just-me]

"Even" means "that is."

The enmity of Eph 2:15, which is not the only enmity in the NT, was the ordinances of the law,
specifically the defilement laws which, in effect, kept the Jews separated from the Gentiles
and were the source of the Jews' hostility toward, and the wall of separation between, the Gentiles.

The Mosaic law causing that hostility and wall was abolished, set aside as weak and useless
for righteousness (Heb 7:18-19), thereby making peace between Jew and Gentile (Eph 2:15).

"Even" is an added word by the translators. it should read without that word to say " [SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, making peace;

Ephesians 2:15 (CJB) by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom,

The law has a purpose for us today, and that is two fold. I agree that there was enmity between the Jews and the gentiles then. Today there is a mutual respect, but conversation is ended when one endorses Jesus as the Messiah to a rabbi. Talked with two rabbis in Jerusalem for a while until I told them what I believed, and then it was over. Even so, I got some very good information from them up to that point.

The law wasn't made to cause us enmity to have against it, it was made to cause sin to be exposed, and to be killed in Christ. That's what salvation is all about.

Romans 7:8-13 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

1. It is a mirror to see that we have no hope without Christ, compelling us to desire His salvation.
James 1:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
2. It causes us to see the dynamics of the salvation of Jesus Christ.
Psalm 21:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.
Luke 1:68-77 (KJV)
[SUP]68 [/SUP]Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
[SUP]69 [/SUP]And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
[SUP]70 [/SUP]As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
[SUP]71 [/SUP]That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
[SUP]72 [/SUP]To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
[SUP]73 [/SUP]The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
[SUP]74 [/SUP]That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
[SUP]75 [/SUP]In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
[SUP]76 [/SUP]And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
[SUP]77 [/SUP]To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

1 Corinthians 15:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Still won't agree with you. That's just-me, and my belief. If I changed that, which I can't, I would have to deny parts of scripture, and their purpose as you do. May God bless you with wisdom.

 

[homwardbound]

It is faith in the work of the cross and nothing else. Think of it, God became a man and still is a man and died for you and me. No other religion can say that. Praise God.

That is justified in the Spirit
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[homwardbound]

All laws are valid, some just 'hinge' on other laws, the laws of Love are most important, Love
God, first, and, with your everything--mind, soul, spirit, body, and, the 2nd commandment (law) of Love "like the first," which, Jesus said those words, yes, and, the 2nd : Love others as you love yourself.

Yes and how can one actually see this truth and do this truth without first seeing:
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[homwardbound]

What does that do? How can I be saved or delivered by obeying these laws. Atheist help there neighbors and give to charity and deny themselves to help others. What sets a true christian apart?

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Then seeing this:
[h=3]Ephesians 3:17-19[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; [SUP]19 [/SUP]and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[homwardbound]

You seem to think that we're advocating following the law for righteousness' sake. We are not. I fall short of keeping the law perfectly every day. God doesn't love me less, nor is my salvation in jeopardy.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to that. The tree i8s always identified by the fruit, some against it, selfishly and others just love regardless

 

[homwardbound]

Believers should follow the law because that's who He was talking to in Matthew 5. Believers also need the Spirit equally. Most importantly, all people need only Jesus for salvation.

[h=3]Matthew 5[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: [SUP]2 [/SUP]and he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Has versed 6 been filled? Along with all those others? Was this before filled before the cross or after?
Colossians 1:22
in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So the God who wrote the Law was "under the old covenant" yet somehow says we shouldn't be "under the old covenant", yet He still tells us to follow the Law?

What game are you playing with me? You asked why he was circumcised, and I told you in so many words it was because he was a son of Israel who was bound by the law of the old covenant to be circumcised. Now you're twisting things around to make what point? That we're under the law? Fine, be under the law. You're cursed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I would say yes. Because Jesus never said not to, and He told us to follow the Torah.
And as always, not for anything relating to justification, salvation or righteousness.

You're lost Matt. Repent.

 

[homwardbound]

A rabbi blessing wine isn't in God's law, just man's. You won't find that instruction anywhere in your Bible.

If you want to to say that Jesus broke the Pharisees Oral/Talmudic law, I agree with you 150%.
But there is still no compelling evidence that Jesus broke the law that HE gave to Moses.

So are you busy working at keeping it? Or are you at rest in that Jesus has done it for you via his death and resurrection?
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If you by Christ through his death are made Holy, perfect unto Father, then one receives new life in they believe Father and Love as God loves, in 1 Cor. 13:4-13. And this type of Love written there, no flesh can do, but Christ alone right? So thus we are now led by the Spirit of God right, not the letter of the Law yes? More now the Spirit of the Law, which is Love to all right?

 

[LegendaryXD]

The laws are not valid. The REASON Jesus followed them was because he was of Jewish decent. Is that to say it is not good to follow them? Absolutely not. I try to follow them but it is because I want too but not because I have too. The 10 commandments were for the Jews but when applied to anyone's life, only benefit occurs.

 

[homwardbound]

I guess the phrase 'follow the law' needs to be clarified on your part because its ambiguity creates problems. Paul said that law and grace are incompatible in a person's walk. The purpose of the law (besides dealing with sin) was to teach love to a people who did not have the same revelation of the holy spirit that we have under the new covenant. That spirit is love and now lives in our hearts teaching us how to love. Apart from adding to this learning process, what else would believers need the law for?

Sop in essence we might need to discern what the Letter of the Law is, and what the Spirit of the Law is?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'll be the first to admit, I fail at it all the time. It can't be kept perfectly. That's why God set up sacrifices and atonement. My atonement is Jesus.

But out of curiosity, which parts of the law are certain I'm not following?

You're making a mockery of Christ's sacrifice. You crucify Christ to yourself again and again each time you revert back to the law. Christ is not a perpetual mulligan for those under law. Nor is he a get-out-of-jail-free card that can be used over and over again. The sacrifice was made once for sins committed under the old covenant. We are under a new covenant with new laws.

Search the scriptures diligently. I'm sure you will find many things in the law that you are not doing. Trying to separate the sacrificial parts of the law from the whole law is a travesty and wickedness.

 

[homwardbound]

So if Jesus fulfilled the Law (which He did) thereby making it obsolete as some say...we have a problem a huge contradiction, in that Jesus Himself said...and yes we have seen this verse many times, but look at it again just a little closer:
and Jesus said....

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Okay, so He said He did NOT come to destroy the Law, in other words He did not come to make the Law obsolete, then He says something very profound which many folk overlook.....He states categorically that until Heaven and Earth pass away, nothing of the Law will pass away...have the Heavens and the Earth passed away??....of course not!!
So why would He say this?....because He made it clear that there should be no mistake about understanding what He meant, Gods Laws are here to stay...TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY!

People get mixed up between the Laws of God and the laws of the Pharisees....BIG difference!
We moan about 600 and something Laws of God yet our own man made laws tally to the thousands and we embrace them because it is "the law"....

Those that have not yet understood or been or are conscious to Christ being the end if the Law to all that believe in his fulfillment of the Law and Prophets, are under Law and on their way to see truth from God that what his Son did is fulfill it for you, because no flesh in God's sight will ever please him, besides the Son Christ. We all need to be born again in the Spirit of God and to have this born again life here in the Spirit of God we need to be first viewed as perfect from God. So see what Christ did do, so Father can give us new birth in his Spirit, if we believe that Christ did do this below:
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

New life in the Spirit of God is waiting, so do we believe God or are we gong to fight to be what God has through Son already done for us?

 

[homwardbound]

show where Jesus said we keep the Law but do not have to use them...He said they will not pass away!..what does that mean?...simple they are still to be obeyed...besides, you are saying God like a "compulsive hoarder"?..why would one keep something when it is of no use?

When one is born again in the Spirit of God and has reckoned themselves dead to sin, they are alive to Gods in the Spirit of God and no sin ever occurs in the Spirit of God. Problem not many are willing to be co-crucified to self with Christ back at the cross, so they can be alive in the Spirit. Now this can only be done daily. I die daily as Paul said, Have you ever wondered why?
[h=3]Philippians 3:10-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

When in the Spirit of God and if daily, one does not sin. Is this not what Christ came to do was and is to give us new life more abundantly. John 10:10? And is not the enemy flesh still at war with God in the Spirit?
So let us choose and ask God to reveal the full truth of the cross to us and be set free, since it is the truth that sets us free is it not?

 

[just-me]

Sop in essence we might need to discern what the Letter of the Law is, and what the Spirit of the Law is?

You might find out the subtle difference by understanding and researching the meaning of "Torah", and the meaning of "Mitzvat" or "Mitzvah." (same word). It has to do with teaching, and acting upon it. It was very interesting to me.