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The Book of Daniel
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doulos
Guest
I did a study on this some time ago -- best I remember, the numbers ended up something like this:
"It seems like we are in the same ballpark..."
457 B.C. - The decree went forth to rebuild the city.
445 B.C. - The wall of the city is built in 52 days.
405 B.C. - The rebuilding of the city ends 52 years after the decree went forth.
- 3 B.C. - Christ is born in Bethlehem.
- - - - -- ( Remember that there is no year 0. )
-30 A.D. - Christ is crucified 62 x 7 = 434 years after the rebuilding of the city ends.
- - - - -- ( NOT 434 years after the end of the 7th week - look carefully at Daniel 9:25-26 )
-34 A.D. - Daniel's 70 weeks end 70 x 7 = 490 years after the decree went forth.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Can you show us where Cyrus' decree issued in 457 included rebuilding the wall? Isn't the decree that Artaxerxes issued in 444BC the only one to meet that Scriptural requirement? And indded the wall was built in troublous times just as Scripture states.
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doulos
Guest
Actually, they are not --- read Daniel 9:25-26 very carefully...
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
The text clearly show 7 weeks and 62 weeks, two groups added together to make 69. Your issue is not with me but with the Scriptures.
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GRA
Guest
I did not say that it did...
Daniel 9:
[SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
The important and significant decree is the one that commanded the city to be rebuilt. It is true that the wall was built first --- but, it has no bearing on the decree to rebuild the city --- which is what matters as far as verse 25 is concerned...
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GRA
Guest
"I don't have an issue with anyone - not even you, should we not happen to agree..."
Did you forget to read verse 26 ???
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GRA
Guest
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doulos
Guest
I did not say that it did...
Daniel 9:
[SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. [SUP]26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
The important and significant decree is the one that commanded the city to be rebuilt. It is true that the wall was built first --- but, it has no bearing on the decree to rebuild the city --- which is what matters as far as verse 25 is concerned...
So we just toss out the fact that the decree Daniel referred to would include rebuilding the wall so we can forcefit Scripture to our doctrine, instead of adjusting our doctrine to fit Scripture? Have you considered that maybe the reason Daniel said that the decree would include rebuilding the wall was so that we would know which of the 4 decrees ordering Jerusalem's restoration he was referring to? If not how would we know which of those 4 decrees we should use as a starting point for the 7 and 62 weeks? The only one of those 4 decrees that included rebuilding the wall was the one issued by Artaxerxes in 444BC.
May God bless your studies!
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doulos
Guest
Verse 26 does not negate the fact that verse 25 says 7 and 62 weeks. Why not just say 69 weeks if nothing significant were to happen at the end of the first 7 weeks?"I don't have an issue with anyone - not even you, should we not happen to agree..."
Did you forget to read verse 26 ???
The Jewish Encyclopedia has interesting insights into the date that Daniel was written, including why it could not have written earlier. I'll cite one paragraph (I'm not using the quote tags because the italics makes it harder to read):
The Book of Daniel was written during the persecutions of Israel by the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. This assertion is supported by the following data: The kingdom which is symbolized by the he goat (viii. 5 et seq.) is expressly named as the "kingdom of Yawan"—that is, the Grecian kingdom (viii. 21) the great horn being its first king, Alexander the Great (definitely stated in Seder "Olam R. xxx.), and the little horn Antiochus Epiphanes (175-164). This kingdom was to persecute the host of the saints "unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings" (viii. 14, R. V.); that is, "half-days," or 1,150 days; and Epiphanes did, in fact, profane the sanctuary in Jerusalem for about that length of time, from Kislew 15, 168, to Kislew 25,165 (I Macc. i. 57, iv. 52). The little horn described in Dan. viii. 9-12, 23-25 has the same general characteristics as the little horn in vii. 8, 20; hence the same ruler is designated in both passages. The well-known passage ix. 23-27 also points to the same period. The first and imperative rule in interpreting it is to begin the period of the seventy times seven units (A. V. "seventy weeks") with the first period of seven (ix. 25), and to let the second period, the "sixty-two times seven units," follow this; forif this second period (the sixty-two weeks) be reckoned as beginning again from the very beginning, the third period, the "one week," must be carried back in the same way. The context demands, furthermore, that the origin of the prediction concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem be sought in Jer. xxv. 11-13 and the parallel passage, ib. xxix. 10. The "anointed," the "prince," mentioned after the first seven times seven units, must be Cyrus, who is called the anointed of the Lord in Isa. xlv. 1 also. He concluded the first seven weeks of years by issuing the decree of liberation, and the time that elapsed between the Chaldean destruction of Jerusalem (586) and the year 538 was just about forty-nine years. The duration of the sixty-two times seven units (434 years) does not correspond with the time 538-171 (367 years); but the chronological knowledge of that age was not very exact. The Seder 'Olam Zuṭa (ed. Meyer, p. 104) computed the Persian rule to have lasted fifty-two years. This is all the more evident as the last period of seven units must include the seven years 171-165 (see "Rev. Et. Juives," xix. 202 et seq.). This week of years began with the murder of an anointed one (compare Lev. iv. 3 et seq. on the anointing of the priest)—namely, the legitimate high priest Onias III.—and it was in the second half of this week of years that the Temple of the Lord was desecrated by an abomination—the silver altar erected by Antiochus Epiphanes in place of the Lord's altar for burnt offering (see I Macc. i. 54).
DANIEL, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com
The Book of Daniel was written during the persecutions of Israel by the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. This assertion is supported by the following data: The kingdom which is symbolized by the he goat (viii. 5 et seq.) is expressly named as the "kingdom of Yawan"—that is, the Grecian kingdom (viii. 21) the great horn being its first king, Alexander the Great (definitely stated in Seder "Olam R. xxx.), and the little horn Antiochus Epiphanes (175-164). This kingdom was to persecute the host of the saints "unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings" (viii. 14, R. V.); that is, "half-days," or 1,150 days; and Epiphanes did, in fact, profane the sanctuary in Jerusalem for about that length of time, from Kislew 15, 168, to Kislew 25,165 (I Macc. i. 57, iv. 52). The little horn described in Dan. viii. 9-12, 23-25 has the same general characteristics as the little horn in vii. 8, 20; hence the same ruler is designated in both passages. The well-known passage ix. 23-27 also points to the same period. The first and imperative rule in interpreting it is to begin the period of the seventy times seven units (A. V. "seventy weeks") with the first period of seven (ix. 25), and to let the second period, the "sixty-two times seven units," follow this; forif this second period (the sixty-two weeks) be reckoned as beginning again from the very beginning, the third period, the "one week," must be carried back in the same way. The context demands, furthermore, that the origin of the prediction concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem be sought in Jer. xxv. 11-13 and the parallel passage, ib. xxix. 10. The "anointed," the "prince," mentioned after the first seven times seven units, must be Cyrus, who is called the anointed of the Lord in Isa. xlv. 1 also. He concluded the first seven weeks of years by issuing the decree of liberation, and the time that elapsed between the Chaldean destruction of Jerusalem (586) and the year 538 was just about forty-nine years. The duration of the sixty-two times seven units (434 years) does not correspond with the time 538-171 (367 years); but the chronological knowledge of that age was not very exact. The Seder 'Olam Zuṭa (ed. Meyer, p. 104) computed the Persian rule to have lasted fifty-two years. This is all the more evident as the last period of seven units must include the seven years 171-165 (see "Rev. Et. Juives," xix. 202 et seq.). This week of years began with the murder of an anointed one (compare Lev. iv. 3 et seq. on the anointing of the priest)—namely, the legitimate high priest Onias III.—and it was in the second half of this week of years that the Temple of the Lord was desecrated by an abomination—the silver altar erected by Antiochus Epiphanes in place of the Lord's altar for burnt offering (see I Macc. i. 54).
DANIEL, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com
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GRA
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doulos
Guest
If you want to base your belief on a Scripturally bankrut wiki article over what Scripture states then by all means as you are led friend, as you are led!
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GRA
Guest
No need to toss out anything --- just read what is actually written...
Daniel does not say that the decree would include rebuilding the wall.
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Married_Richenbrachen
Guest
This made me laugh. Sorry, its probably some mind-control programming kicking in. Sadly, I can't even think where I last heard that - you're probably right, I reckon either TV somewhere (I don't watch anymore), or I've just read/seen it so many times from others I use it in autopilot.
What I should have said, is that you might learn you were wrong about something you thought you knew. But psychologically, to phrase thus can be a little off-putting, as perhaps you don't want to be wrong about your cherished beliefs? Personally, I hate that!With regards to hateful comments, these say more about you than they do Zone. A father spanks the naughty child he loves. You think we should just let heretics and other religions go to hell because we don't want to offend their sensibilities? I say we spank them! Perhaps they will repent.
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GRA
Guest
"He has..."
I believe I know the answer to that question; however, I do not think you would believe me if I told you...
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doulos
Guest
No need to toss out anything --- just read what is actually written...
Daniel does not say that the decree would include rebuilding the wall.
If the wall is irrelevant then how are we to determine which of the four restoration decrees recorded in the Ol Testament is the starting point for the 7 and 62 weeks?
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doulos
Guest
"He has..."
I believe I know the answer to that question; however, I do not think you would believe me if I told you...
Try me ater all I've already shown why I think they were divided, I may not agree but our discussion might help others learn.
May God bless your studies! (or should I say continue to bless your studies LOL)
This made me laugh. Sorry, its probably some mind-control programming kicking in. Sadly, I can't even think where I last heard that - you're probably right, I reckon either TV somewhere (I don't watch anymore), or I've just read/seen it so many times from others I use it in autopilot.
With regards to hateful comments, these say more about you than they do Zone. A father spanks the naughty child he loves. You think we should just let heretics and other religions go to hell because we don't want to offend their sensibilities? I say we spank them! Perhaps they will repent.
My patience may seem a bit thin, and truly for that I pray the Lord would help me, but I just can't abide holocaust deniers who belittle the immense suffering the Jewish people endured and I have seen her at least partially deny the holocaust. She also blames some combination of America and Israel for 9/11 and I never hear her admonish Muslims, instead she consistently bashes Jews, especially regarding land squabbles in Israel. Virtually EVERYONE lives on land once occupied by some other race, group or people. I don't see her giving up her Canadian home and giving it back to Indians! The Jews have this teeny tiny spit of land in comparison to the land given to the Muslims when the British territories were divided. Yet even THIS little land is TOO much for those who hate them.