atheists

[Cycel]

To the choirmaster. Of David.

Tell me about this choirmaster.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.
Psalm 14:1

1 The fool[a] says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

The bolded type would indicate no one in the world believes? I hardly think so. What about all of Israel? What about the worshippers of Baal and the other gods? No, Megaman, something else is meant here.

4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?

They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the Lord.

Who devours the Psalmist’s people? Is he writing of the enemies of Israel? Who was the enemy of Israel in this time period?

5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is their refuge.

7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Salvation of Israel from whom? Who is the enemy? The New Oxford Annotated Bible says this Psalm is talking about those who deny God is active in the world, who deny his ability to govern Israel. This is not a reference to those who deny the existence of God, but to those who deny God’s ability to protect Israel. Such people would turn to other gods. They are fools, and it would seem the Psalmist thought there were large numbers of them.

It seems the authors of the Bible had no trouble finding atheists or understanding the concepts of atheism.

Note verse five. “But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.”
Why would an atheist be overwhelmed with dread of God? No, this is about those who believe in God, but who most likely think God cannot protect his people. The enemy seems to be those who are turning to other gods. This is a common theme in the Old Testament, is it not?

Think about something else. There was no Big Bang theory. There was no theory of evolution. How did all ancients explain the existence of the world and of people? The gods created us. That’s what they thought. No Megaman. There were few, if any, atheists back then and Psalm 14 is talking about very large number of fools – too many to be a handful of atheists; and they were threatening the salvation of Israel.

 

[Starcrash]

The bolded type would indicate no one in the world believes? I hardly think so. What about all of Israel? What about the worshippers of Baal and the other gods? No, Megaman, something else is meant here.

Man, I'm so lazy sometimes. I didn't even look up the context of this passage. Thanks for doing what I ought to have done.

 

[Starcrash]

There were few, if any, atheists back then...

I read an interesting theory on why this was. If you've read books on how the unconscious mind operates, such as the must-read Incognito by David Eagleman, then you know that we have at least two "minds" made up of the two hemispheres of the brain (and probably more "minds" than that), and these minds only seem like one thanks to the work of the corpus calosum at the back of the brain that connects the hemispheres (as well as the temporal lobe). But it's possible that even as recently as 2,000 years ago that our brains didn't work in this fashion, and that people heard their own thoughts from certain areas of the brain as separate entities. While we may think we would've been atheists even back then, we probably wouldn't have... it would be hard, with the impoverished knowledge of neuroscience in that age, to come to realize that these other voices in our head came from us.

 

[CoooCaw]

you atheists claim an intellectual or logical superiority but typically you hold to a number of irrational dogmas

which require far more and blinder faith than I need in adhering to special revelation

The irony of this statement!

You speak to any atheist, and they'll pretty much agree on a lot of things in the bible. Don't kill or steal, no adultery, love thy neighbour, live a good life etc.

The divide between Christians and Atheists appears ONLY BECAUSE of the superstitious and supernatural elements. That is the only real divide between us. We both live to the same standards and ideals as you do. We just don't believe the supernatural part of it.

 

[AvalonXQ]

you atheists claim an intellectual or logical superiority but typically you hold to a number of irrational dogmas

I have not found this to be the case.

Can you give an example of a particular irrational dogma that IntoTheVoid, Starcrash, and Cycel all hold to?

 

[AvalonXQ]

22Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

The Greek word is more ambiguous than the English. The word is "deisidaimón," literally "God-fearing." It can be used positively, in the sense of being pious and religious, or negatively, in the sense of not understanding the true God. Here is Strong's:

Strong's Greek: 1174. δεισιδαιμονέστερος (deisidaimonesteros) -- very fearful of gods, religious, superstitious.

It explicitly implies religious practice and belief in SOME type of god, and therefore explicitly refutes your claim that Paul was talking to atheists.

 

[megaman125]

Obviously this passage doesn't apply to atheists because there are atheists that "do good". Or... the verse is mistaken. It's upsetting to me that so many Christians get preconceptions of atheism from bible verses rather than studying actual atheist behavior.

Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.
Ecclesiastes 7:20

There's no such thing as a "good person" in the Bible, because everyone has sinned. You can't earn God's forgiveness for your sins by doing good deeds. If you think otherwise, that's fine, but you're deceiving yourself, which like I said is fine, seeing as you're the one that has to live your life and be held accountable for your beliefs and actions, not me.

The bolded type would indicate no one in the world believes? I hardly think so. What about all of Israel? What about the worshippers of Baal and the other gods? No, Megaman, something else is meant here.

Wrong. The passage says "no one does good," it does NOT say that no one believes. You're talking about 2 different things.

 

[CoooCaw]

I have not found this to be the case.

Can you give an example of a particular irrational dogma that IntoTheVoid, Starcrash, and Cycel all hold to?

what if I show you one that Carl Sagan adhered to?\

 

[CoooCaw]

The Greek word is more ambiguous than the English. The word is "deisidaimón," literally "God-fearing." It can be used positively, in the sense of being pious and religious, or negatively, in the sense of not understanding the true God. Here is Strong's:

Strong's Greek: 1174. δεισιδαιμονέστερος (deisidaimonesteros) -- very fearful of gods, religious, superstitious.

It explicitly implies religious practice and belief in SOME type of god, and therefore explicitly refutes your claim that Paul was talking to atheists.

but that is the joke;

they considered themselves superior to the greeks/athenians of the day because they forsook polytheism and embraced the concept of atoms and evolution; BUT they still hedged their bets and put up an alter to the Unknown god

 

[AvalonXQ]

Cycel is correct - from the context, it appears that Psalm 14 is talking about heathens worshipping other gods and denying Elohim, rather than referring to someone denying all gods.

I don't know of any discussion in the Old Testament about actual atheists.

 

[AvalonXQ]

what if I show you one that Carl Sagan adhered to?\

Since you were making a claim about "you atheists" (implying, I believe, atheists on this thread), I would much rather you identify a dogma that the three active atheists on this thread hold to - if you know of one.

If not, maybe you shouldn't generalize in that particular way?

 

[Cycel]

I have not found this to be the case.

Can you give an example of a particular irrational dogma that IntoTheVoid, Starcrash, and Cycel all hold to?

Thanks Avalon. That's my question as well.

 

[AvalonXQ]

but that is the joke;

they considered themselves superior to the greeks/athenians of the day because they forsook polytheism and embraced the concept of atoms and evolution;

Where are you getting this information about them? They were polytheists, and to my knowledge they didn't know anything about evolution.

 

[Cycel]

Since you were making a claim about "you atheists" (implying, I believe, atheists on this thread), I would much rather you identify a dogma that the three active atheists on this thread hold to - if you know of one.

If not, maybe you shouldn't generalize in that particular way?

And as you are not an atheist, but you do believe in evolution, we need to point out to CoooCaw that what we really need is a dogma that is exclusive to atheists. That would leave out evolution and other scientific theories that Christians also believe. Yes?

 

[CoooCaw]

Since you were making a claim about "you atheists" (implying, I believe, atheists on this thread), I would much rather you identify a dogma that the three active atheists on this thread hold to - if you know of one.

If not, maybe you shouldn't generalize in that particular way?

the problem with snipers is they do not expose themselves

I'm not gonna trawl through their statements when they are more interested in attacking than providing a rational alternative;

but I will take on someone who has put their own beliefs out there to be examined; you wanna suggest a well known atheist?

 

[CoooCaw]

Where are you getting this information about them? They were polytheists, and to my knowledge they didn't know anything about evolution.

evolution is an oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold idea; it actually goes back to lucifer

 

[AvalonXQ]

the problem with snipers is they do not expose themselves

Then perhaps it is inappropriate to make generalizations about what atheists "typically" do, if in fact most atheists you encounter (including all the ones on this thread) don't actually provide you enough evidence to confirm your claim.

 

[Cycel]

you wanna suggest a well known atheist?

Bertrand Russell, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, Dan Dennett, Dan Barker, and many more. Hope this helps.

Personally CoooCaw, when you made your statement I believed you must have had something particular in mind. I didn't realize you were shooting in the dark.

 

[AvalonXQ]

evolution is an oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold idea; it actually goes back to lucifer

You didn't answer my question; you just made yet another claim without evidence.

Where are you getting your information about the Epicureans, from which you claim they're not polytheists and they believe in evolution?

 

[CoooCaw]

Then perhaps it is inappropriate to make generalizations about what atheists "typically" do, if in fact most atheists you encounter (including all the ones on this thread) don't actually provide you enough evidence to confirm your claim.

this is my point; the ones that go public do so!!!!

so nominate one and let us examine them

why not discuss carl sagan??