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Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Gen 18:1-2 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door
in the heat of the day; (2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him:
and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the
ground,
Gen 18:22-23 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham
stood yet before the LORD. (23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the
righteous with the wicked?
The men went toward Sodom, two angels arrived in Sodom. It also says Abraham stood yet before the
Lord. Abraham saw 3 men, yet only 2 arrive in Sodom. That leaves the third. Where did the third
go? Well it says Abraham yet stood before the Lord. That is the third.
Now concerning Jacob wrestling with someone. Not once in Gen 32:24-30, of the story
does it mention an angel. It says he wrestled a man. And Jacob said Gen 32:30 And Jacob
called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Concerning Moses, Exo 33:21-23 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou
shalt stand upon a rock: (22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will
put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: (23) And I will
take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Now, the thing about Jesus is, He is God and man. Before the Word became flesh, He was
Jehovah. After the Word became flesh, He was still Jehovah. In Gen 18, when it says the LORD,
the word in Jehovah. To say Jesus is God is the same as saying Jesus is Jehovah. He is Jehovah
and man.
Gen 18:1-2 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door
in the heat of the day; (2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him:
and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the
ground,
Gen 18:22-23 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham
stood yet before the LORD. (23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the
righteous with the wicked?
The men went toward Sodom, two angels arrived in Sodom. It also says Abraham stood yet before the
Lord. Abraham saw 3 men, yet only 2 arrive in Sodom. That leaves the third. Where did the third
go? Well it says Abraham yet stood before the Lord. That is the third.
Now concerning Jacob wrestling with someone. Not once in Gen 32:24-30, of the story
does it mention an angel. It says he wrestled a man. And Jacob said Gen 32:30 And Jacob
called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Concerning Moses, Exo 33:21-23 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou
shalt stand upon a rock: (22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will
put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: (23) And I will
take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Now, the thing about Jesus is, He is God and man. Before the Word became flesh, He was
Jehovah. After the Word became flesh, He was still Jehovah. In Gen 18, when it says the LORD,
the word in Jehovah. To say Jesus is God is the same as saying Jesus is Jehovah. He is Jehovah
and man.
seriously? Jesus is throughout the old testament. It is difficult for me to realize ... you all seriously don't recognize this??
Ok I will be happy to share how I see things.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was with God in the beginning. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it...
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Consider that. Then Begin in Genesis
Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Genesis 1:6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
Genesis 1:9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
Jesus is the WORD made flesh. Every word spoken by God is who Jesus IS. It isn't a stretch. IT isn't difficult to understand. IT is written clearly. Why doesn't everyone see it? By the way I loved this post and every response. Maybe I am just out of my mind. Maybe these things are easier for the simple minded to understand.
Ok I will be happy to share how I see things.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He was with God in the beginning. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it...
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Consider that. Then Begin in Genesis
Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Genesis 1:6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.”
Genesis 1:9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
Jesus is the WORD made flesh. Every word spoken by God is who Jesus IS. It isn't a stretch. IT isn't difficult to understand. IT is written clearly. Why doesn't everyone see it? By the way I loved this post and every response. Maybe I am just out of my mind. Maybe these things are easier for the simple minded to understand.
L
I was wrong.
There is no other explanation for the Angel of the Lord/burning bush/pillar of fire, other than the 2nd person in the Trinity, who is Christ. The Father has never been seen, and yet OT figures have claim to see God. Therefore, when a part of God was made manifest in the OT, it was not the Father, but instead pre-incarnate Christ.
To clarify what my question was originally: I was not questioning whether Christ existed before the Incarnation (John 1:1 is clear), but whether He manifested Himself physically on earth before the Incarnation. My previous assumption is actually very common, and attention should be applied to this issue.
Although scripture is indirect concerning this issue, it has been made clear that Christ is and always was the physical and communicative representation of God, and therefore was manifest in every appearance of God in the OT.
Thank you oldhermit for taking the time to show me these things.
There is no other explanation for the Angel of the Lord/burning bush/pillar of fire, other than the 2nd person in the Trinity, who is Christ. The Father has never been seen, and yet OT figures have claim to see God. Therefore, when a part of God was made manifest in the OT, it was not the Father, but instead pre-incarnate Christ.
To clarify what my question was originally: I was not questioning whether Christ existed before the Incarnation (John 1:1 is clear), but whether He manifested Himself physically on earth before the Incarnation. My previous assumption is actually very common, and attention should be applied to this issue.
Although scripture is indirect concerning this issue, it has been made clear that Christ is and always was the physical and communicative representation of God, and therefore was manifest in every appearance of God in the OT.
Thank you oldhermit for taking the time to show me these things.
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"The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight" (Mark 1:3).
Of Whom is this verse speaking? Who was John to prepare a straight path for? Why for "the Lord," of course. And Who was the Lord but Jesus.
This statement comes from Isaiah 40:3 and it refers to the LORD, YHWH, Jehovah:
"The voice of him that cries i the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah) make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
now another example
Zch 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon :"me" whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Now in old testament we see that the Lord (jehovah) sent serpents to kill the people who murmured and tempted against him.
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for [there is] no bread, neither [is there any] water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Now who sen the serpent?
1C 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1C 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
There are so many such verses in the bible, which telks that Jesus Christ himself was the Lord of Israel.
Of Whom is this verse speaking? Who was John to prepare a straight path for? Why for "the Lord," of course. And Who was the Lord but Jesus.
This statement comes from Isaiah 40:3 and it refers to the LORD, YHWH, Jehovah:
"The voice of him that cries i the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah) make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
now another example
Zch 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon :"me" whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
Now in old testament we see that the Lord (jehovah) sent serpents to kill the people who murmured and tempted against him.
Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for [there is] no bread, neither [is there any] water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Now who sen the serpent?
1C 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1C 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
There are so many such verses in the bible, which telks that Jesus Christ himself was the Lord of Israel.
UMMM So who is God talking to in these two verses out of Genesis?
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 11
6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 11
6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
I
8Then the Lord told him, “Make a replica of a poisonous snake and attach it to a pole. All who are bitten will live if they simply look at it!” 9So Moses made a snake out of bronze and attached it to a pole. Then anyone who was bitten by a snake could look at the bronze snake and be healed!
Who do you suppose was on the pole? Maybe just me but...............
Who do you suppose was on the pole? Maybe just me but...............
John 1 informs the reader that the Son came to His 'own' BEFORE He became flesh, as thus...
He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacle among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as ofan only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out ofHis fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him. (John 1.10 – 18)
He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacle among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as ofan only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out ofHis fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him. (John 1.10 – 18)
