Morals

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May 9, 2012
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#21
Let us remember intelligence does NOT have any correlation with morals. Heard of psychopaths? They are pretty stinkin' smart but they don't have a moral standard they serve anymore..Serial killers are stinkin' smart but they don't subject themselves to moral standards based on their intelligence. Morals and intelligence have nothing to do with each other.
 

Fenner

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2013
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#22
I'm asking, as a Christian, would YOU become a murderer or would you start rioting or whatever if suddenly there was no god
No, if you had the absolute proof that God does , like he came to you in physical form. Would you believe ?
 
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Theophane

Guest
#23
I think everyone has that moral instinct, that sense of fair play. Even a sociopath, living in a private solipsistic domain in which there are no other human beings, will demand a fair trial and mourn his own losses. He can cry, but his tears will always be for himself.
 
Jan 29, 2011
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#24
Moral values and duties is often misconstrued in the exact way that you described, namely, without God or religion, there would be no morals. However, the question of moral values and duties has to do more with moral epistemology--the explanation of how morals arose vs moral ontology--how morals really are. And it is in the ontological sense of morals that seems to be debated the most which consists of mainly two sides; relative and objective moral values and duties.

The objectivist postulates that without God, morals have no ontological objective status. That is to say, there is nothing to ground the moral values and duties that we all abide by thereby morals wouldn't be objective. While the moral relativist postulates just the opposite; moral values and duties change throughout culture, and thus, have no objective status to speak of. The only grounding is us; we say what is right and wrong.

So, with this in mind, let's examine your inquiry.

You say, "So what if some ridiculous event occurred tomorrow that proved the non existence of god, would you all turn into murderers and rapists? Or would you be exactly the same people."

I would answer this question in the following way: I wouldn't turn into a murderer or a rapist but I don't see how or why I would have to follow someone else's morals; after all, moral values and duties would at that point be up to me. What I say goes. For, who could tell me that I'm wrong for any actions I commit? The court? My fellow man? Why? How? They don't have any more moral high ground than me. So who are they to tell me what's right or wrong? I'm perfectly capable of deciding what is right and wrong for myself.
If this makes no sense to you, causes something to rise up within in, or goes against what you believe about morals; it is exactly what we're left with if there is no objective ontological grounding for our moral values and duties.

I hope that this suffices as an answer and that someone learned a little bit about the debate about moral values and duties that has been and will most likely continue to be debated for centuries to come!

 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#25
I hear people say that without god/religion there would be no morals.

So what if some ridiculous event occurred tomorrow that proved the non existence of god, would you all turn into murderers and rapists? Or
Would you be exactly the same people.
Men may have morals without religion and God. The primary message of christianity is not morals however, it is about the forgiveness of sins and the delivery from same. Morals as such cannot take away your sins. Only God can take away your sins.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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#26
Cain murdered his brother, Abel, way before being given the ten commendmants and still, he knew what he did was wrong because something whithin himself, his conscience (God) talked to him.

You suggest that we (the humans) are good only because we don't kill or rape? I hope not. Only because I don't do bad things that doesn't imply that I do good things; only because I don't hate a person that doesn't mean i necessarly love that person. I want to say that in order to be good we must do good (not doing bad isn't enough in order to be good).

Christianity isn't only about morality, isn't only an aswer to our questions about the universe and about what happens when we die and so on, christianity is about life, forgivness, love, metanoia, becoming, resurrection, happiness etc, etc.
 
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megaman125

Guest
#27
I hear people say that without god/religion there would be no morals.

So what if some ridiculous event occurred tomorrow that proved the non existence of god, would you all turn into murderers and rapists?
Not quite. The only thing that stopped me from murdering someone when I was an atheist was that I wanted them alive so they could feel pain and suffering, because I viewed death as the end (no afterlife or anything). I'd probably go back to being how I was when I was an atheist, which you can read about here. http://christianchat.com/testimonie...ving-evil-spirit-cast-out-me.html#post1182225

Fortunetly, there's absolutely no way you could take away what happened to me, and hence, I'll never be an atheist again.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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#28
Not quite. The only thing that stopped me from murdering someone when I was an atheist was that I wanted them alive so they could feel pain and suffering, because I viewed death as the end (no afterlife or anything). I'd probably go back to being how I was when I was an atheist, which you can read about here. http://christianchat.com/testimonie...ving-evil-spirit-cast-out-me.html#post1182225

Fortunetly, there's absolutely no way you could take away what happened to me, and hence, I'll never be an atheist again.

Wow... So, what stops you know from murdering a person? The fear of Hell or the future compensation of Heaven?
 
Jun 30, 2011
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#29
I hear people say that without god/religion there would be no morals.

So what if some ridiculous event occurred tomorrow that proved the non existence of god, would you all turn into murderers and rapists? Or
Would you be exactly the same people.
I would probably be both, why not right - If my origin is meaningless, my future is meaningless, that means life is meaningless - whats the difference between going out hugging or mugging

I say probably both, because sin is not just a verb, but a noun, it is something that indwells in me. This is why some non Christians may act more 'moral' than unbelievers.

Christianity, the sum total isn't about morality, it's about restoration between man and God - "And I will be there God" God actually wants man for some reason, though man is wicked.
 
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megaman125

Guest
#30
Wow... So, what stops you know from murdering a person? The fear of Hell or the future compensation of Heaven?
You mean right now in my Christian life? The fact that I love people now instead of hate them.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#31
I think everyone has that moral instinct, that sense of fair play. Even a sociopath, living in a private solipsistic domain in which there are no other human beings, will demand a fair trial and mourn his own losses. He can cry, but his tears will always be for himself.
I disagree...

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#32
Wow... So, what stops you know from murdering a person? The fear of Hell or the future compensation of Heaven?
For me, It is the Mercy given to me from God, through Son, that constrains me.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#33
I disagree...

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
So then we are in need of a new heart then from God, through Son, yes? Can this be earned or just given and then we do after being given?
 

TheKringledOne

Senior Member
Dec 25, 2009
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#34
Not quite. The only thing that stopped me from murdering someone when I was an atheist was that I wanted them alive so they could feel pain and suffering, because I viewed death as the end (no afterlife or anything).
D: Yikes. That is a hard mindset for me to imagine. I'm going to have to read your testimony when I get the time.
 
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danschance

Guest
#35
The difference for me between when I was an atheist and Christian is:

As an atheist I obeyed laws because they had consequences. I had no problems pushing traffic laws or flirting with women. I never gave money to panhandlers. I gambled in Las Vegas now and then and loved it.

As a Christian, I do sin less. I am more careful with what I say. I am loyal to my wife and I try harder to show her that I love her, I give money to panhandlers. I forgive and don't carry a grudge any more. I never gamble.
 

TheKringledOne

Senior Member
Dec 25, 2009
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#36
As an atheist I obeyed laws because they had consequences. I had no problems pushing traffic laws or flirting with women. I never gave money to panhandlers. I gambled in Las Vegas now and then and loved it.
How did you justify those things as in your best interest in terms of potential consequences?
 
Oct 6, 2013
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#38
Everyone speaks about the olden days as days where more people believed in God. Of course, it's nonsense. There are more openly religious people nowadays than there have ever been on Earth. Between Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity and Islam.

People forget that 'back then', cheating spouses and teenage pregnancies were just as rife, but much less talked about. Wife beating was common. Peadophile rings went unexposed. Media travelled slower. And a very large number of priests and pastors were using little boys for things we've all heard about. People fought wars 'in the name of God', as they still do, and murder, rape and kidnap were consistently as frequent though much less heard of. Less population makes for less crime and less stories. Percentage wise, the world hasn't really gotten worse.

One day, I will fantasize that 'in the good old days' people were better human beings but the truth is it's just wishful nostalgia.

I dont need religion to tell me something is wrong. But I have heard some religious people say 'if there's no God, what's the point then? I might aswell sin sin sin.'

Those people could be the real monsters. I try to live by morals because it makes for a better world, not because Im restraining myself for God incase he punishes me for eternity.
 
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danschance

Guest
#39
How did you justify those things as in your best interest in terms of potential consequences?
I think that would fairly obvious. If I murdered a person, I probably would get caught. So the penalty out weighs the benefits of doing the crime.
 

TheKringledOne

Senior Member
Dec 25, 2009
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#40
I think that would fairly obvious. If I murdered a person, I probably would get caught. So the penalty out weighs the benefits of doing the crime.
You weren't afraid at all about your actions influence on the society as a whole and how that will change the actions of all the people around you?