What Laws are still valid to christians

[eternally-gratefull]

It depends on why anyone thinks we should. I've never once said the entire Law is binding on everyone, and that everyone should do all of it. That's the miscommuincation. As soon as I say I follow commandments in the Law, people assume I have to do all of it.

No. Thats not it at all. When you say you follow law. You better be saying you obey all of it. Otherwise your not truly following the law. You can;t say one thing, then do another.

The law is one thing, Not parts of one thing.

he thing is, I don't follow it because I have to follow all of it. I read through the Scriptures as we all do, and the Spirit says, "Matt, let me show you something. Do this." So I do it. It's the exact same that happens with all of us when we read the NT as well.

I know what the sacrifice truly is. I know who my Priest is. I know where the temple is today. Does it fit exactly with the Law? No. But that doesn't mean I negate all of it because I don't have a field where I can leave the corners unharvested to the poor can glean there. I'm obedient to the things the Spirit lays on my heart. I'm not responsible for any of it until it's laid on my heart. If I were to say that I have to do it as a whole to please God, everyone's concerns would be valid.

But I've never said that.

again, The law is one thing, Not a smarll part of one thing.

You either follow it all. Or your not following it period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

.

Correct. What I'm saying is that because the OT writers, who were born of women and are in the Kingdom of Heaven, they are greater that John according to the verse Rose mentioned.

lol.. That is not what Jesus said.

Your twisting what he said..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There has to a be a balance for all us with these scriptures, no matter which side of this argument we fall on. Because there are verses that show our faith is what is pleasing to God, but there are also verses that say: I think this concept extends beyond just the Law, but works in general.

[h=3]Colossians 1:10[/h]10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, [a]to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and [b]increasing in the [c]knowledge of God;"


[h=3]James 2:17[/h]17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is [a]dead, being by itself.

I think this concept extends beyond just the Law, but works in general. So how to be balance the two? (this question if for both sides)

That's completely true. The distinction, I believe, is between works of law and works of faith. Since works of law are not out of faith, works of faith must be something entirely different.

We are told that works of faith accomplish the purpose and goal of the law, which is righteousness, or just behavior, whereas the works of law do not attain to righteousness.

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not follow righteousness, attained righteousness, the righteousness that is out of faith. But Israel, following law of righteousness, did not attain to law of righteousness. Romans 9:30-31​

To the carnal mind this appears to be a paradox. But GOD planned it that way. Christ is a stumbling stone to the carnal mind.

Why [did Israel stumble]? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if by works [of law]. They stumbled over the stone that causes people to stumble, just as it is written, ​“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble, and a rock that causes them to fall, and the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.” Romans 9:32-33​

So works of law do not produce righteousness, but genuine faith produces works of faith. Faith without works is just mental belief. But an obedient faith follows the holy spirit's teaching to love GOD by loving one's neighbor. So works of faith are love of GOD and man.

The goal of the commandment is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and faith without hypocrisy, 1 Timothy 1:5​

 

[KohenMatt]

jesus tells us in matt 5 to follow more than the law. The law is not complete. as he said, The OLD law says this, But I tell you, it includes this.

And if your gonna follow law. Again, you should follow every part. we can;t pick and chose what to follow and what not to

True, we have to follow more than the law, so that our righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees. But it doesn't negate the following of the original Law itself. That's why Jesus told the Pharisees that they should follow the weightier matters and still do the tithing of the herbs and spices. Just because we live and walk by faith, doesn't mean we can't walk according to the Law as well, assuming it's by faith as well.

And again, I follow the commands of the Law, and the NT as the Holy Spirit lays on my heart and is applicable. There are a ton of commands that aren't applicable to me today in the Law. I don't HAVE to do any works of the Law because my salvation isn't based on obedience, but I do them as the Spirit leads. It's the same with the commands in the NT. I don't have to do them for salvation, but I do them as the Spirit leads.

 

[KohenMatt]

That's completely true. The distinction, I believe, is between works of law and works of faith. Since works of law are not out of faith, works of faith must be something entirely different.

We are told that works of faith accomplish the purpose and goal of the law, which is righteousness, or just behavior, whereas the works of law do not attain to righteousness.

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not follow righteousness, attained righteousness, the righteousness that is out of faith. But Israel, following law of righteousness, did not attain to law of righteousness. Romans 9:30-31​

To the carnal mind this appears to be a paradox. But GOD planned it that way. Christ is a stumbling stone to the carnal mind.

Why [did Israel stumble]? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if by works [of law]. They stumbled over the stone that causes people to stumble, just as it is written, ​“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble, and a rock that causes them to fall, and the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.” Romans 9:32-33​

So works of law do not produce righteousness, but genuine faith produces works of faith. Faith without works is just mental belief. But an obedient faith follows the holy spirit's teaching to love GOD by loving one's neighbor. So works of faith are love of GOD and man.

The goal of the commandment is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and faith without hypocrisy, 1 Timothy 1:5​

My stance is that works of the Law can be done as works of faith. It doesn't mean they always are, but they can be.

If I sell all I have and give to the poor, but do it out of my own effort, have I profited anything? No. If I do it because the Spirit lead me to, that's when it's right. It's the exact same thing with any aspect of the Law.

 

[KohenMatt]

lol.. That is not what Jesus said.

Your twisting what he said..

So then explain how the OT writers fit into that verse that Rose quoted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True, we have to follow more than the law, so that our righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees.

Don't get to proud brother. I doubt your righteousness will ever excede there according to the law.

Our righteousness exceeds theirs only when we are given the righteousness of Christ.

But it doesn't negate the following of the original Law itself.

then you better follow it all. or your not really following it.

That's why Jesus told the Pharisees that they should follow the weightier matters and still do the tithing of the herbs and spices. Just because we live and walk by faith, doesn't mean we can't walk according to the Law as well, assuming it's by faith as well.

There problem is they made the mistake the law made them morally acceptable. But as all men do. they picked and chose which part of the law to follow. and which to ignore. And did not realise, the law really condemned them, Which was its purpose to begin with.

And again, I follow the commands of the Law, and the NT as the Holy Spirit lays on my heart and is applicable. There are a ton of commands that aren't applicable to me today in the Law. I don't HAVE to do any works of the Law because my salvation isn't based on obedience, but I do them as the Spirit leads. It's the same with the commands in the NT. I don't have to do them for salvation, but I do them as the Spirit leads.

well then why don;t you stop saying you are following the law. And just say you are doing what God leads you to do. That would be more truthful. And stop all these arguments..lol

 

[cfultz3]

well then why don;t you stop saying you are following the law. And just say you are doing what God leads you to do. That would be more truthful. And [would] stop all these arguments..lol

How true....all the while most were saying the same thing, but that little nuisance we call "lingo" seemed to have caused misunderstanding.....

 

[KohenMatt]

Don't get to proud brother. I doubt your righteousness will ever excede there according to the law.

Our righteousness exceeds theirs only when we are given the righteousness of Christ.

Exactly. That's what I believe as well.

then you better follow it all. or your not really following it.

I've already addressed this in a couple of different places. I'm not required to do all of it. If you're doing it for salvation or right standing before God, then you're right, you'd better do it perfectly. Which we all know you can't, and fortunately, we're not required to do.

There problem is they made the mistake the law made them morally acceptable. But as all men do. they picked and chose which part of the law to follow. and which to ignore. And did not realise, the law really condemned them, Which was its purpose to begin with.

Exactly. Which is not the purpose of following particular commandments in the Law.

well then why don;t you stop saying you are following the law. And just say you are doing what God leads you to do. That would be more truthful. And stop all these arguments..lol

lol, that would be easier, for sure. The reason why I use that word, and the specific commands themselves is because there are many on this forum who take the stance that anything written in the Law is bad, and that if you do them, you're in error. They rarely take the time to work through this and see what I and others are saying. You can follow aspects of the Law and not be error. You can honor the Sabbath because the Spirit leads you to. You can be circumcised if the Spirit leads you to. Just because it's in the Law, doesn't mean you can't do it. It just needs to be out of the right motivation. i.e the Spirit.

Also, I'm a practical application guy. If I can't get a practical application for my life that changes my life in the scriptures, I believe I'm missing the point of it all. There are many people in this forum, and many posts that say "Live by the Spirit" and "living by the Spirit pleases God". That's all well and good, but what does that look like? What does a young believer do with that? The practical examples that you gave earlier are good, because they're tangible and visible. That's why I talk about actual commands in the Bible, and in the OT in particular. For me, so many of those commands have a practical application for me, if not physically then definitely spiritually.

 

[vic1980]

For the children of Israel. In accordance with the covenant God made with them (not the one to save them, but for God to be their God and they be his earthly children, Live in their land, be blessed by him) forever means forever.. Or at least until the earth no longer exists, at which time, there is no more land to be blessed in.

Thanks eternally-gratefull , my isp was messy earlier today, i just read the hebrew forever means forever

 

[homwardbound]

Which one makes righteous. The law or the cross? Certainly the law could not do it. If it could then why did God become a man and give Himself on the cross as a lamb that we might be saved. Saved from what? the curse of the law and sin.

Does the fact that the Law could not make us holy, being of the weak flesh and only Christ could via the cross, make us Holy
Does that make the law itself weak?
Regardless of what the Law could not do, because of flesh that is weak, does that in all logic make the Law weak?

 

[WomanLovesTX]

jesus tells us in matt 5 to follow more than the law. The law is not complete. as he said, The OLD law says this, But I tell you, it includes this.

And if your gonna follow law. Again, you should follow every part. we can;t pick and chose what to follow and what not to

Why do you insist that one who is willfully obedient to following the law SHOULD FOLLOW EVERY PART? You say "We can't pick and choose what to follow and what not to".

Jesus did not follow ALL OF THE LAW!!!

There are commandments for women. Jesus is not a woman.

There are commandments for farmers. Jesus was not a farmer.

There are commandments for judges and Sanhedrin. Jesus was not a judge or of the Sanhedrin.

There are commandments for the Levites. Jesus was not a Levite.

And on and on we can go.

Jesus did not do the whole Law of God! and NEVER will.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

How is "fulfil" defined? Some believe it means "to do away with". Others believe it means He came "to fully preach the Word of God".

FULFIL - STRONG'S G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Has heaven and earth passed? No! So the law cannot be all fulfilled, can it?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What on earth is Jesus saying? That we don't have to keep or teach the commandments? So whose authority do we follow? If we believe Paul was teaching that the OT commandments are done away with or nailed to the cross (meaning law of sin and death was nailed to the cross....the record of our sins was nailed to the cross), then it is our understanding what Paul taught that is screwed or twisted.

Peter said 2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

No! I don't have to follow "every part" of the law as you keep repeating over and over again. I think you do so ignorantly. You say you had a bad experience in a fellowship of believers who kept the law but were poor Christians? So sad to hear that. My fellowship of believers that we study together Old and New Testament, all of the Word, both being the Whole word of God and is ALL APPLICABLE to our lives today.

There is no possible way for each individual to keep ALL THE LAW. Jesus is our best example, and He couldn't. So why do you accuse others of being wrong when it is impossible to keep all of the laws, many which are not applicable?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How true....all the while most were saying the same thing, but that little nuisance we call "lingo" seemed to have caused misunderstanding.....

True. And when you start telling non believers you need to follow Law. They will immediately think of all the law. And your putting a yoke on them, as peter said, they can not follow.

 

[cfultz3]

True. And when you start telling non believers you need to follow Law. They will immediately think of all the law. And your putting a yoke on them, as peter said, they can not follow.

Again how true. In your opinion, and anyone else who cares to answer, how do you propose an explanation?

 

[KohenMatt]

True. And when you start telling non believers you need to follow Law. They will immediately think of all the law. And your putting a yoke on them, as peter said, they can not follow.

True, and similarly, when people start telling the non-believers or young believers that they can't or shouldn't follow aspects of the Law, we are putting them at risk of faith without works, which is no faith at all. That's why I've tried to clarify the following of the Law through Spirit.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but some do.

 

[homwardbound]

Why do you think that? And can you answer this from that same Matthew 5 discourse with His disciples?

And continuing on the theme of "Looking" and committing a sin of adultery, Jesus also made this command:

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Was this also a departure from Old Testament commands? Or is it a new command to be done literally?

It was Jesus showing us our 100% inability to obey all the Laws perfectly, and if we want to go to heaven cut off and gouge. The disciples were 100% convinced and asked Jesus how it was even possible to go to heaven after finally seeing the rich man walk away sad, who could not give up this worlds money. Who said he obeyed all the commandments from birth on. This is in Matt. 19. After they asked Jesus he said with man it is impossible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,but with God all things are possible.
So what was Jesus saying here?
Is the flesh unable to obey or not? what does flesh need to be? and if flesh is not considered dead with Christ at
Christ's death, then how can there be new Life.
Philippians 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Philippians 3:11 if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh

 

[cfultz3]

True, and similarly, when people start telling the non-believers or young believers that they can't or shouldn't follow aspects of the Law, we are putting them at risk of faith without works, which is no faith at all. That's why I've tried to clarify the following of the Law through Spirit.

I'm not saying you're doing this, but some do.

Would you purpose for an explanation that Jesus fulfilled certain aspects of the Law and through Him we do not need to sacrifice for forgiveness, etc..., but that we, through Love, are to fulfill those things which define God's essence? That is, we are to love, seeing that love does fulfill those things which do define God's essence which were spoken in words?

 

[Welshman]

Regards the comment?, JESUS, did not do all the law, I've never seen such a misapplication of scripture like that in my whole life, Jesus is the law? You say he wasn't a farmer a judge a member of the sahendrin, and so on, Jesus gave all the laws to these groups, he wrote them before man was even present on the earth, the laws of physics,medicine,cosmology,and every other ology there may be? Jesus is the writer of all law levitical mosaic, faith, you cnt divide the word of god to suit your interpretation no matter how sure you are that your right? And by no way are you right in saying Jesus did not do all the law, Jesus is not subject to time as man is, regarding heaven and earth shall pass away before one iota of the law is complete, is a figurative piece of language? , the earth shall never pass away never, therefore Jesus was saying the law will be for eternity, forever and ever? In fact the earth is to be universal headquarters for the both The Lord Jesus and the father after Jesus 1000 yrs of rebuilding what shortly is to fall revelation ch 21 all things made new ? Now I saw a new heaven and new earth ? Not a new planet no? Bt a renewing of the face of the earth? God doesn't destroy his creation sister he renews ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've already addressed this in a couple of different places. I'm not required to do all of it. If you're doing it for salvation or right standing before God, then you're right, you'd better do it perfectly. Which we all know you can't, and fortunately, we're not required to do.

Yes you have, But when you state your following law. Your required to do all of it, or you are not following law. That is just the basic fact.

Exactly. Which is not the purpose of following particular commandments in the Law.

True, but then how do we know which command to follow. and which are no longer valid? And who choses which to follow (see my point)

lol, that would be easier, for sure. The reason why I use that word, and the specific commands themselves is because there are many on this forum who take the stance that anything written in the Law is bad, and that if you do them, you're in error.

Really? I have not see this. Maybe your misunderstanding them? Do you really think people say that not commiting adultry is a bad thing and we should not do it?

They rarely take the time to work through this and see what I and others are saying. You can follow aspects of the Law and not be error. You can honor the Sabbath because the Spirit leads you to. You can be circumcised if the Spirit leads you to. Just because it's in the Law, doesn't mean you can't do it. It just needs to be out of the right motivation. i.e the Spirit.

Well again, Circumcision is a sticky subject. I have witnessed on done on a 20 y/o, it is not a prety site. They had a jump cart standing by, because alot of guys who have it done go into cardiac arrest because of the pain (you can not numb the area, it could cut off blood flow)

Sorry, But I can not see the spirit of God leading anyone to do something which is not commanded to be done.. And all this does is alienate us from others, something we are warned against doing.

I can see someone who thinks they are to follow law being led by the law to do it. But I can not see the spirit of God leading one to do it. No reason spiritually or to advance the kingdom of God to do it.

Also, I'm a practical application guy. If I can't get a practical application for my life that changes my life in the scriptures, I believe I'm missing the point of it all. There are many people in this forum, and many posts that say "Live by the Spirit" and "living by the Spirit pleases God". That's all well and good, but what does that look like? What does a young believer do with that? The practical examples that you gave earlier are good, because they're tangible and visible. That's why I talk about actual commands in the Bible, and in the OT in particular. For me, so many of those commands have a practical application for me, if not physically then definitely spiritually.

Its easy, It is not as hard as your making it out to be. How do we follow the spirit? Be others focused. Be anti-self (humble) and serve and love others. Anything we do in this aspect is following God. Anything we do to puff up self (like sin, or following a bunch of rules and regulations) is sin, and not following the spirit.

 

[just-me]

I have been told that Paul was referring to some laws in the Epistles as “Roman law” when referring to
Galatians 3:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

I responded: “Really, wow, I didn't have any idea. Do you have something that is in scripture to confirm that? It would be very interesting to me to read up on that Paul is not referring to the Mosaic Law. Never heard that before. That would put a different slant on everything that I have ever heard.”

Needless to say, there is no scripture to back that up, so it would be wise on my part to ignore this type of “edification.” We are exhorted by the scriptures to search the scriptures and compare them by the power of the Holy Spirit. If the Bible seems to contradict itself, we are then receiving the wrong message. Keep this in mind, Jesus taught under the Old Testament. After His ascension, He sent us the “Comforter.” John claims that the Word was in the beginning in John chapter 1. So it is very understandable that the “Word” is what delivers us the Holy Spirit. Without the “Word,” there is no Spirit of understanding. If one negates part of the “Word, “ then the Spirit of understanding is also in part, and not whole.