The Dangers of the Hebrew Roots Messianic Movement

[Apostol2013]

well I myself follow the law of righteousness in the Spirit of Elohim (GOD ) IN Jesus to be under grace and truth but yes do not let no one tell you to follow the law of moses as a percept of salvation but study it to learn the righteousness of ELOHIM ( GOD ) through a thorough study of the torah the prophets and to listen to the apostles and the prophets primarily that the spirit may comform you to the everlasting grace of the kingdom of heaven a kingdom of the Spirit of ELOHIM. I will leave you with scriptures regarding the kingdom of Heaven ..........

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I really don't know what to make of this guy..... his testimony puzzles me a great deal when coupled with what he stands for.

I've never really been interested in the guy, but I'll look into him a bit to see if I can offer any insight.

 

[Apostol2013]

Isa 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
Isa 8:9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
Isa 8:10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Isa 8:11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
Isa 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Praus]

That is just finding ways to argue and fight, you know I am looking to what the bible says kills, like judging others and discounting God.

You have said that you condemn people for studying the word, and quote pigs in your condemnation. Yet in this post you say that it is right to study about pigs.

I don't condemn people studying the Bible, I'm not sure what you're referring to. If you point me to the post about pigs that would be helpful.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I've never really been interested in the guy, but I'll look into him a bit to see if I can offer any insight.

The first thing I noticed is that this guy advertises on Google. I don't see a Christ-centered website. I think he's just into making merchandise of GOD's people.

 

[RedTent]

To sum up, we all need Christ. Christ was at creation, Christ lived the thousands of years before the crucifixion, Christ spent three years with us on earth and was crucified. Before that Christ was worshipped as a symbol, and we need to learn all about that. Afterwards the symbols were no longer needed, they became real. Everyone agrees up to this point the people labeled cultist and the people who label themselves absolutely right in their stand against the "cultist".

There was lots of information that had been lost with time dug up with archeology, so some people used this information for a deeper understanding of the OT. The OT had been difficult for our 21st century minds to understand, this information served as a bridge. As this information became available to more and more people, there was a movement to learn more of what God had to say to us in the thousands of years before the crucifixion. It deepened understanding of the changes Christ made.

There is a terrible outcry over this. It is very like the outcry of the Pharisees when Christ told them of God. These people saying to study our roots are giving a deeper understanding of Christ and also of God.

 

[RedTent]

I don't condemn people studying the Bible, I'm not sure what you're referring to. If you point me to the post about pigs that would be helpful.

Does the words dietary laws jog your memory?

 

[Praus]

I don't condemn people studying the Bible, I'm not sure what you're referring to. If you point me to the post about pigs that would be helpful.

Does the words dietary laws jog your memory?

Not at all, I'll repeat my request: "If you point me to the post about pigs that would be helpful."

 

[danschance]

To sum up, we all need Christ. Christ was at creation, Christ lived the thousands of years before the crucifixion, Christ spent three years with us on earth and was crucified. Before that Christ was worshipped as a symbol, and we need to learn all about that. Afterwards the symbols were no longer needed, they became real. Everyone agrees up to this point the people labeled cultist and the people who label themselves absolutely right in their stand against the "cultist".

There was lots of information that had been lost with time dug up with archeology, so some people used this information for a deeper understanding of the OT. The OT had been difficult for our 21st century minds to understand, this information served as a bridge. As this information became available to more and more people, there was a movement to learn more of what God had to say to us in the thousands of years before the crucifixion. It deepened understanding of the changes Christ made.

There is a terrible outcry over this. It is very like the outcry of the Pharisees when Christ told them of God. These people saying to study our roots are giving a deeper understanding of Christ and also of God.

Red, The problem is not "studying our roots". The problem is blending Judaism with Christianity or at least adding Old Testament law to New Testament grace. As I mentioned before, Christianity is not Judaism. I have engaged in some Jewish stuff, but never because I felt it was law. I never felt compelled to go to a Seder for any other reason than to simply enjoy the roots of Christianity. Above all, I would tell others they must not eat pork, must obey the Sabbath or must become circumcised as these are former things. Christ fulfilled the law!

 

[danschance]

Does the words dietary laws jog your memory?

Nope. The only thing that jogs my memory is that God showed Peter a sheet filled with unclean animals and told him to kill and eat---three times in a row.

 

[Apostol2013]

in isaiah 8 it prophesied the end of the law and begining of grace it goes well with the apostle paul

 

[Apostol2013]

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Praus]

Does the words dietary laws jog your memory?

Nope. The only thing that jogs my memory is that God showed Peter a sheet filled with unclean animals and told him to kill and eat---three times in a row.

Prov 11:22 [As] a jewel of gold in a swine’s snout, [so is] a fair woman which is without discretion.

The OT had been difficult for our 21st century minds to understand, this information served as a bridge.

These people saying to study our roots are giving a deeper understanding of Christ and also of God.

Study the entire Bible!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

View attachment 60698

Reminds me of a Jewish deli I used to work at.

 

[RedTent]

Red, The problem is not "studying our roots". The problem is blending Judaism with Christianity or at least adding Old Testament law to New Testament grace. As I mentioned before, Christianity is not Judaism. I have engaged in some Jewish stuff, but never because I felt it was law. I never felt compelled to go to a Seder for any other reason than to simply enjoy the roots of Christianity. Above all, I would tell others they must not eat pork, must obey the Sabbath or must become circumcised as these are former things. Christ fulfilled the law!

I don't think the problem is blending Judaism with Christianity at all. The problem is that you are accusing studying our roots as being a study that concludes that people are so godlike they can achieve their own salvation by working without God. That is not taught in any of the 66 books of scripture. No scripture study could come to that conclusion. You wrongly call that Judaism. That is living without knowing God.

Another problem is that you talk about Jews, and the subject is God.

Another problem is the accusation that to obey law is to deny Christ. Christ asks us to obey, for the kingdom of God to be on earth as it is in heaven. Christ also tells us He will forgive. To obey is NOT denying Christ's forgiveness.

Another problem is the churches terrible fear of the law. The way Christ fulfilled the law was to complete the salvation that God offers us when we do our part. The law was given to us by God with love for us. It is our guide to joy, contentment, peace. Over and over we are told to obey, and in Rev 20:12 we are told we will be judged by our works. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

Scripture tells us that we must not tell people that diet or circumcision is necessary, the new movement is not against scripture! It is only your accusations of them that are untrue. Scripture, however, does not speak against these things if the are recognized as a reminder or a symbol of the real thing and that it is the real thing that God looks at, not the symbol. Done as a means of salvation they are wicked. Done as a reminder of what we are to obey, they are not. If we used the symbol of Christ of animal blood, it would be wicked. It is only Christ's blood that can be used. When we study bible, we know that.

 

[Bryancampbell]

Be careful, there is a difference between following His example/likeness, than actually doing what he was fulfilling. Only way Christ could be perfect is if He obeyed the Law of Moses (which He was already perfect). But Paul makes it clear how a Christian should follows His example, by following in the likeness of His nature, not observing the Law of Moses.

Once you walk in the footsteps of the Old Covenant, you're automatically being held accountable by it's demand, even if you believe in grace, with ignorance, you're in the path of a different living. It's bad enough for someone to live in the Old Covenant, but it's worse when someone is living it thinking they are still saved by grace. They fail that it doesn't work like that.

Someone correct me, I hope I am not mistaken by this, I could be?

 

[Praus]

The problem is that you are accusing studying our roots

Hi redtent, I'm still waiting to find out which post that I "condemn people for studying the word" and where I "quote pigs in your condemnation". That's a serious accusation and I'd like to answer it as soon as you show me the post(s). Thanks.

That is just finding ways to argue and fight, you know I am looking to what the bible says kills, like judging others and discounting God.

You have said that you condemn people for studying the word, and quote pigs in your condemnation. Yet in this post you say that it is right to study about pigs.

I don't condemn people studying the Bible, I'm not sure what you're referring to. If you point me to the post about pigs that would be helpful.

Does the words dietary laws jog your memory?

Not at all, I'll repeat my request: "If you point me to the post about pigs that would be helpful."

 

[Apostol2013]

yes we are not under law but grace and truth but to this covenant of our lord is fullfilled in true righteousness wich leads into holiness that the law was replaced with a covenant of mercy , righteousness wich is his truth in full love

 

[danschance]

The problem is that you are accusing studying our roots as being a study that concludes that people are so godlike they can achieve their own salvation by working without God.

You must have me confused with someone else. I have never said the things you claim I did.

Another problem is the accusation that to obey law is to deny Christ.

I am saying it is wrong to obey the mosaic laws as viable laws for Christians. If you obey the Mosaic laws then you are disobeying the law of grace.

Another problem is the churches terrible fear of the law.

This is a straw man argument. Churches are not afraid of the law at all.

 

[Apostol2013]

so whats the contradiction we know the law of the spirit prophesed in the fruits in all the righteousness throughout scripture but not to condemnation but we do that when we act in the sin nature but we have christ to forgive us at the right hand