Perfection, Holyness, Purity.

[Nick01]

Nick you are so close to see that GOD does whith the FLESH he puts His seed into...

...

So in short... Sinner to christian to saint to perfect man.... Getting clean is our Faith FOLLOWING CHRIST IN TRUTH... Making perfect is God's GLORY IN US. Christ Jesus IN US...
I tink you know enought o know this is how God does HIS SALVATION to save a sinner from evil to His Glory for HIS GLORY...

It's late where I live, so I'm going to go to bed. I'll give you a detailed reply to what you posted tomorrow. But in the meantime, I'd appreciate it if you dealt specifically with the material I posted earlier. Namely, how does what I quoted from 1 John 2&3, 2 Timothy and 1 Cor 15 relate to your theology, given that they seem to suggest that the resurrection is a) yet to happen and b) is simultaneous with glorification/being perfectly in the image of Christ (in other words, being glorified/perfected/made fully Christ-like is a future event)

 

[Cobus]

Nick you ask when can a Christian be holy in his own right? NEVER... you see this is why you do not understand... NO PERSON CAN BE HOLY BY HIS OWN DOING.... NEVER EVER!!!!! But a person can get SQUECKEE CLEAN by FOLLOWING THE LEAD OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.... The Holy Spirit does not MOVE SINNERS.... SINNERS HAVE TO MOVE THEMSELVES...

Jesus said... HEY CHRISTIAN/DISCIPLE... you are only worthy to FOLLOW ME IF YOU PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW...Why do you think we cannot be Christian of disciple if we do not TAKE UP OUR CROSSES? Then we have NOTHING TO NAIL SIN TOO... And do we follow Jesus or Sataan when we sin? Oh do not worry,, it is not the end... God knows we are weak and the flesh is strong... but the CRUCIFIXION is WAY stronger... the Holy Spirit is REALLY POWERFUL... If we FOLLW HIS LEAD, we will NAIL EVERY SIN TO THE CROSS.... EVERY SINGLE ONE... And guess waht happens when you nail the LAST one the Holy Spirit showed you to nail to the cross, guess what happens when you FOLLOWED AND NAILED THE OLD TO THE CROSS....The old DIES RIGHT THERE... DEAD as in DEAD WITH CHRIST ON THE CROSS...

Right at teh mment the LAST sin is DEAD, then you are as clean as a whistle i thing the English says... God said you were red a Ocre but white as snow you are now... Jesus gives you to father, and Father puts you with Christ in HIMSELF... ANd then HE PUTS JESUS IN YOU... ONLY NOW ARE THE HOLY IN YOU... and it is not YOU HOLY it is still HOLY SPIRIT HOLY...


I hpe this makes it clear that the clean person is not Holy, he is just clean, but when God LETS HIM ENTER INTO HIMSELF GOD IS THE HOLY IN THAT PERSON... I am clean, but I am NOT holy, i will nly be HOLY if the SPIRIT ENTERS INTO ME, AND I ENTER INTO GOD... A Saint needs to be EDIFIED and PERFECTED, and be made unto a perfect man,,,, and only THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE FLESH IS PERFECT, the MAN (Saint made perfect) IS GONE TO GOD....

 

[p_rehbein]

I believe Cobus is arguing that you are already sanctified. There's no striving involved, there is no process - you are either sinless, or you are not. Saved, or not. One sin, you have shown that you were never truly justified, you were never sanctified, God's Spirit never dwelt in you.

well, we may be reading differently, but even then, it is quite possible to be Sanctified in this life. We are called to be sanctified. The Apostle Paul made this quite clear........

1st Corinthians 2:7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 .) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 .) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 .) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 .) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 .) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 .) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 .) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 .) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 .) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

3:1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 .) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 .) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

The carnal Christian is surely saved, yet is not sanctified. Sanctification occurs when the Holy Spirit takes up residence in our hearts......His indwelling presence is what sanctifies us.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Just wondering here, but when we are born again, do we not receive a new "nature?"

Being "dead" to sin IMO simply means sin no longer has dominion over us, we are now children of the Promise. Those who have been buried in Christ, also are risen in Christ, and does this not change our "nature?"

Of course we receive a new nature. But what nature is that? Christ himself through his spirit. The new nature is our new spirit in heaven, not our flesh on earth. We live by putting the deeds of the old nature to death through the new nature.

Cobus believes and teaches that the old nature becomes a new nature at some mysterious threshold of obedience. If that's the case then we have been perfected and there is no need for the cross to put the old nature to death every day. This clearly contradicts what Christ and the apostles taught.

 

[p_rehbein]

Of course we receive a new nature. But what nature is that? Christ himself through his spirit. The new nature is our new spirit in heaven, not our flesh on earth. We live by putting the deeds of the old nature to death through the new nature.

Cobus believes and teaches that the old nature becomes a new nature at some mysterious threshold of obedience. If that's the case then we have been perfected and there is no need for the cross to put the old nature to death every day.

dunno, I read and understand his comments/thoughts different than that........just saying. As for obedience, is obedience to His Commandments not our responsibility? Are salvation and sanctification being confused here?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

there must be a misunderstanding between the various posters here. As I read Cobus, I see that he is saying it is NOT HIM, but the Holy Spirit that resides within him. He HAS surrendered his life to Jesus and states that more than once.

Cobus believes that his flesh is now sinless, i.e., that he no longer has a sinful old nature. That's where the problem is.

 

[p_rehbein]

Cobus believes that his flesh is now sinless, i.e., that he no longer has a sinful old nature. That's where the problem is.

again, I understand his comments differently.......to me what Cobus is saying is that he is "dead to sin" because of the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit.............Cobus is approaching this discussion from the "spiritual" point of belief IMO.

And, if we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, then how is it possible to retain our "old nature?"

I think there is much arguing in circles on this thread, but that may just be me I suppose.

 

[RedTent]

Of course we receive a new nature. But what nature is that? Christ himself through his spirit. The new nature is our new spirit in heaven, not our flesh on earth. We live by putting the deeds of the old nature to death through the new nature.

Cobus believes and teaches that the old nature becomes a new nature at some mysterious threshold of obedience. If that's the case then we have been perfected and there is no need for the cross to put the old nature to death every day. This clearly contradicts what Christ and the apostles taught.

You are just repeating the old refrain of all who do not believe in obedience to God. You go on and on about that we are not perfected through obedience. Scripture tells us that from Genesis to Rev. If we could manufacture ourselves into perfection without Christ we would be Gods. That has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the need to obey.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think all the people who say the law is nothing, we can't be perfect are just copping out from hearing anything teaching them to do anything the Lord asks them to do.

We are to listen to all scripture, it all is God breathed. It is the same God who said be perfect that said we are under grace, not the law. The same God told us that we are not saved by works that told us to obey. The same God told us how to use animal blood as our sacrifice as told us not to use animal blood but the blood of Christ. God does not change His mind about how we can walk with Him, the principles of that walk was built into creation and they remain the same. It is up to us to listen to God and understand. If we don't we are to study, and go on our knees before Him until we do understand that this is not an indication that God says different things but we are to understand the principles behind it and obey.

Redtent, is your broken record 33, 45, or 78 rpm?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

well, we may be reading differently, but even then, it is quite possible to be Sanctified in this life. We are called to be sanctified. The Apostle Paul made this quite clear........

Of course, with continual cleansing. Cobus does not believe in continual cleansing, but that it was done once and never needs to be repeated again.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

dunno, I read and understand his comments/thoughts different than that........just saying. As for obedience, is obedience to His Commandments not our responsibility? Are salvation and sanctification being confused here?

You haven't been following him closely enough, then.

Yes, we are responsible for obeying Christ's words; and yes, he confuses salvation/sanctification (positional) with sanctification (ongoing/continual) and conflates the two.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And, if we have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, then how is it possible to retain our "old nature?"

Are you without sin? The new nature cannot sin.

 

[Cobus]

Of course we receive a new nature. But what nature is that? Christ himself through his spirit. The new nature is our new spirit in heaven, not our flesh on earth. We live by putting the deeds of the old nature to death through the new nature.

Cobus believes and teaches that the old nature becomes a new nature at some mysterious threshold of obedience. If that's the case then we have been perfected and there is no need for the cross to put the old nature to death every day. This clearly contradicts what Christ and the apostles taught.

WOW now Cobus teches the NEW NATURE... I agree Cobus BELIEVES, but this is GOD TEACHING NOT ME....

Look here herosefromthedead....
2 Cor 5:17... Oh and ALL the BOLD lettering is STRIGHT FROM GOD'S WORD AND MOUTH.... NOT mine... GOD'S....

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


Will you believe this.... ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW....I DO!!! If God says ALL became new and the old is Gone,.... God says SINNER GONE JESUS CAME....

 

[posthuman]

i believe that, just as the tabernacle was merely an earthly shadow of the true temple of heaven, we ourselves in the flesh are mere shadows of our true, new nature, as new creations through that great gift of Christ. the body and hope that we will be translated & resurrected to, this is not the 'tent' we dwell in now, and like the Word says, this 'tent' that is our flesh already 'waxes old & weareth away' -- not fit for new wine.
we have the Holy Ghost, but only a foretaste of what is to come, when we will be with Him, like Him. we fail now, like a threadbare tent that leaks water, but God sees us in the fullness of the work that He, through the Spirit, is doing in us, having Christ as our champion before Him. we are being perfected, and we know that that work He is doing will be completed.
if we willfully continue in sin, we set ourselves against the Spirit, and unless we repent, how can the work be completed?

He has said, we are a building; He is the builder. if the builder calls the work 'perfect' while the construction is still going on, it is because he has the plans laid out before him, and he knows what it will be when it is complete, and the foreman, when he sees poor craftsmanship, will have it torn down and replaced with new, so that his assessment 'it is perfect' is made true.

we are shadows of what we will be, and we understand only in the moment, but He knows what we will be in maturity, and sees the completion of all things.

now we are called to be holy & perfect, because only what is holy and perfect is what will be allowed to remain, and He would not that we be torn down and rebuilt. add no more dross to the refiners pot! but we are not any longer the dross, but the silver that is purified from it.

does that make sense? my hand continues to do wrong, but my heart continues to look for what is right.

 

[p_rehbein]

Are you without sin? The new nature cannot sin.

It's clear that people just don't understand being "dead" to sin. Again, being dead to sin means that sin no longer has dominion over our lives, our nature. We (and sin's dominion over us) were buried with Christ, and we (and our salvation from sin) arose with Christ.

This does not mean we are perfect, rather it means that the Holy Spirit who indwells with us is perfect. We are not "sinners" if we have been born again, we are made worthy to become heirs to the Promise, and worthy to be called the children of God. Sinners can not qualify for either.

People who believe that they remain "sinners" even after accepting Jesus into their lives, are accepting/living a "defeatist" lifestyle in my opinion. We do not remain sinners........can we slip now and again? Yes, but we have the assurance that He will be faithful to forgive and forget our slips. We belong to Him, not sin. Those who are not saved can not say the same thing. What we must come to understand is the necessity for sanctification. We must grow beyond the "milk" stage of our life in Christ into the more mature "meat" stage. We must leave behind the "carnal" stage of our walk with Christ, and mature and grow into the "spiritual" stage of our life with Christ.

We may not be perfect, but He who is in us, and in whom we trust IS. The difference between sanctified believers and non believers is that we have His indwelling presence, and HE IS without sin. It is HE who covers our sin with His precious blood, and HE who stands in the gap for us. People tend argue from the "carnal" position rather than the "spiritual" position, and this is why I think people should study and learn of sanctification and how that enables us to achieve this "new nature."

I am not perfect, but He who resides within me IS. I don't do/achieve anything of myself, rather it is He that resides within me that works through me, and this is the "fruit" of sanctification IMO. What He is able to accomplish through us, are the good works we are rewarded for IMO.

I don't dwell on sin, I don't live in sin, rather I dwell on Him, and He dwells in me. To dwell on sin, to live in sin, sinful nature and such is to live a defeatist life. I am not defeated. Because of Him, I have the Victory assured.

 

[my_adonai_]

It is the height of absurdity to think you don't come short of the righteousness of God.
Do you think because you keep a few commandments that you are righteous?
- That is nonsense.
- - The law is the schoolmaster to lead us to Jesus.
To think by doing certain things that you are equal to Him is absurd.
To think by not doing other things you are equal to Him is equally absurd.
- - -There are sins of commission, and sins of omission.
To reckon that you would either do or not do them at all times is absurd to the highest degree.
The only grace is in His blood; (which is faith in Him alone, not your good works).

It's Called Sanctification, - (His work in us).

Brother what assures if Christ comes at this moment (as a thief) that you wont have any sin of commission or ommission to held accountable for? Will God brush off unintentional sin and say my son, you did not mean this one so i wont hold you accountable for it?

 

[tdrew777]

If you lower the standard of what, "perfect" means, you can, perhaps find an elite group that believe they qualify! If it no longer means "perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" but "perfect Christian obedience" an elite group can be duped into believing that they meet the requirements and will declare themselves "perfect". Count me out. Our God does not lower standards to let people in. He holds an impossible standard and empowers people to make it anyway. I will humbly accept, as Paul did, that I have an old nature that needs to be crucified and a new nature that needs to dominate. I will submit to his pleas for me to put off the old nature and to put on the new, to walk in the spirit, not in the flesh. I will choose the new nature and live with the hope of holiness.

Rom 8:24,25 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

 

[my_adonai_]

Or will the Lord judge us according to the Ongoing sin in our lives? ie HABITUAL sinning rather than unintentional slip ups?

 

[Nick01]

Nick you are so close to see that GOD does whith the FLESH he puts His seed into...

You didn't actually deal with the passages I asked you to, but never mind. Please do so if you have a mind to. I will answer your initial post to me.

Nick God is only sattisfoed and pleased with ONE LIFE on earth... The life Christ JEss lives on this world. God says we should strive hard to enter into the straight gate... MANY try who shall not be able too...

Agreed, but I suspect we mean slightly differnet things by the narrow path and the small gate (John 10)

Nick who are the people that are these MANY that seek to enter, but shall not be albe... Give me your take on the MANY that seek to enter... who are tehy, and why are they not able to enter into the narrow gate?

Let's ask Jesus:

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You willknow them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29 for He was teaching them as onehaving authority, and not as their scribes.

So, clearly, those who practice lawlessness, those who do not follow Jesus, those who wield spiritual gifts but are not those known by God. It bears resemblences to what Jesus says in John 10. So who, in his mind, is walking through the wide gate, and who the narrow? Surely, he seems himself and his teaching connected to the narrow, and I think it's also fair to say he envisages the Pharisees as being custodians of the wide.

I look at a saved person in this fashion... It is a person that GOD KEEPS FROM EVIL...JOhn 17, It is a person that is filled with God's Spirit... Ezek 36, John 3 and 2 Peter 1 and many more... It is a person that God did call, he did justify, and he did glorify...

Do you have a text that speaks of glorification as past (I know there is one, I just want you to show how you think about it)

Now let me just tell you how I beleive the process goes... God calls sinner. then God sanctify, justify and purify that sinner to be as pure as God Himself is PURE... Pure meaning squeecky clean ...Red as ocre he was white as snow he is now...but this clean person is only a Saint... and not perfect yet... only without sin and living without sin

Here is the nub, I think: you seem to be saying that it is possible to be Pure AS GOD IS PURE in the present, to be sinless and living without sin, and not be perfect. Can you explain what you take perfect to mean, then?

... then God lets the world hate this SAINT for HIS NAME sake... and if the Saint endures t the end of SAINTSHIP, God make him PERFECT... Eph4:11 to 13.

I'll put the passage up here, so everyone can make their own mind up. I'll use the ESV.

1 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children,tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather,speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

I'm not sure what argument you are making from this passage it doesn't necessarily teach that an individual Christian can completely incapable of sin. This process you describe doesn't seem to come from Scripture - certainly, growing in Christ is a process, but I think it's incorrect to say that saints are those who are incapable of sin - Paul calls the Corinthians saints (1 Corinthians 1:2), and yet proceeds to catalogue all their sins and their inadequacies as followers of Christ.

 

[Nick01]

It's clear that people just don't understand being "dead" to sin. Again, being dead to sin means that sin no longer has dominion over our lives, our nature. We (and sin's dominion over us) were buried with Christ, and we (and our salvation from sin) arose with Christ.

This does not mean we are perfect, rather it means that the Holy Spirit who indwells with us is perfect. We are not "sinners" if we have been born again, we are made worthy to become heirs to the Promise, and worthy to be called the children of God. Sinners can not qualify for either.

People who believe that they remain "sinners" even after accepting Jesus into their lives, are accepting/living a "defeatist" lifestyle in my opinion. We do not remain sinners........can we slip now and again? Yes, but we have the assurance that He will be faithful to forgive and forget our slips. We belong to Him, not sin. Those who are not saved can not say the same thing. What we must come to understand is the necessity for sanctification. We must grow beyond the "milk" stage of our life in Christ into the more mature "meat" stage. We must leave behind the "carnal" stage of our walk with Christ, and mature and grow into the "spiritual" stage of our life with Christ.

We may not be perfect, but He who is in us, and in whom we trust IS. The difference between sanctified believers and non believers is that we have His indwelling presence, and HE IS without sin. It is HE who covers our sin with His precious blood, and HE who stands in the gap for us. People tend argue from the "carnal" position rather than the "spiritual" position, and this is why I think people should study and learn of sanctification and how that enables us to achieve this "new nature."

I am not perfect, but He who resides within me IS. I don't do/achieve anything of myself, rather it is He that resides within me that works through me, and this is the "fruit" of sanctification IMO. What He is able to accomplish through us, are the good works we are rewarded for IMO.

I don't dwell on sin, I don't live in sin, rather I dwell on Him, and He dwells in me. To dwell on sin, to live in sin, sinful nature and such is to live a defeatist life. I am not defeated. Because of Him, I have the Victory assured.

I agree with this. But this is not what Cobus is arguing, as far as I can tell.

To clarify, p_rehbein: Do you believe it is possible for a Christian to get to the point IN THIS LIFE where they do not committ sin, and they are physically incapable of sin, do you believe that the moment Christ's spirit enters into you, you MUST become without sin completely ("That is why God HAS to cleanse you AND REMOVE YOU FROM THE FLESH... God REMOVES YOU FROM THE FLESH AND HE PUTS HIS SON'S SPIRIT AND SOUL IN YOU...God does not clean you and leave you to get dirty AGAIN... He REMOVES YOU FROM THE FLESH"), not just merely be beyond sins ruling power, and do you believe that if a Christian does not become without sin completely in their lifetime, then they are not saved?