Distinctives of Dispensationalism

[SarahM777]

I don't know - but isn't Revelation a prophetic book? Isn't John being shown things that will happen? So if the temple was destroyed - yet John sees a temple - what temple is he seeing. Just asking - not weighing in on this whole thread yet. (Oops didn't see Chosen's post we must have posted around the same time)

Remember Jesus spoke about Herod's temple being destroyed,John was there when Jesus said those things. John knew the prophecy about the temple,yet John never mentions it being fulfilled? How does that make any sense? Peter,James,John and Andrew were the four that talked to Jesus in private after Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another

Mark 13

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

So then why doesn't John say one word about this happening?

 

[chatter23]

“It is possible to know all about doctrine and yet not know Jesus. The soul is in danger when knowledge of doctrine out steps intimate touch with Jesus. ....Have I a personal history with Jesus Christ? The one sign of discipleship is intimate connection with Him, a knowledge of Jesus Christ nothing can shake.”

I like this. I Understand it deeply. It is where insights and revelations come to a true believer. Non intellectual, but, intelligent never the less.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Three Distinctives of Dispensationalism

As dispensational thought began to be developed, it was noticed that there are three distinctives about dispensationalism. These are three things which are more true of dispensationalism than they are about other theological systems. First, dispensationalism most consistently interprets the Bible literally. Other systems of understanding the Bible may interpret the Bible literally on occasion, or even most of the time. But dispensationalism is the system that most consistently interprets the Bible literally.

True, But would add. this happens when it concerns prophesy. Not all things of scripture are prophetic in nature. A parable, for example. Would not be taken literally except for the literal thing the parable is symbolizing.

The second distinctive of dispensationalism is that it distinguishes between the church and Israel. This is really just an application of the first distinctive. But the other leading system of understanding the Bible, Covenant Theology, often blends the church and Israel together. A dispensational approach allows us to understand that at one time, God was dealing with Israel, He is now dealing with the church, and one day He will deal with Israel again.

True, but can be misleading, depending on how someone see it being used.

The third distinctive of dispensational understanding has to do with God’s ultimate purpose. Covenant Theology is centred primarily around the idea of salvation. God’s saving of people throughout the Bible is what they base their understanding on. For the dispensationalist, salvation is important, but more important is God’s Glory. Dispensationalism does not focus on salvation. It focuses on God’s testing of man. In every test, man is found wanting, God is vindicated in his power and righteousness, and the glory goes to God.

A huge misrepresentation.

Most dispensationalists understand there are two great events in all human history, present and future at hand in scripture.

the first being the salvic issue, which has never changed. Salvation has and will always be by faith through grace.

the second in in Gods dealing with mankind on earth. and who he is dealing with in any particular time.

As far as salvation goes. there are two dispensations. On is pre-fall, and one is post fall

As far as human history goes. there are many dispensations, these dispensations are just ways in which we can differentiate between different time periods in an easy way, and learn how God did things at different time periods. Yet have nothing to do with salvation.

Some dispensationals do mix the two. saying people may have been saved diffrerent ways, but this is not the norm, and they would be in the minority.

the sad part is. many claim ALL dispensationalists do this, which would a false claim.






is this very short article accurate?[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

not surprisingly, there are 2 currently active threads re : Dispensationalism.

this thread is to examine the theological and exegetical problems in Dispensationalism.

....

here's a post from the other thread, which is an apologetic for the Dispensational scheme:



my question is: is the above excerpt from the pro-dispensational link:

TRUE? OR FALSE?

is this true?:

"the church and the nation of Israel are two separate entities which God has managed via two distinct plans"

what's wrong with that statement?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/78643-what-dispensationalism.html#post1279565 < click thread

False. The church has always been anyone who is saved. Even when God dealt with isreal. there was truel israel (people like Daniel and the prophets) called the church, And false Israel (those who rejected Gods grace)

It is no different than today. there are true churches and their are false churches. yet the whole entity is called the church.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One vine, one olive tree, many branches that are "being saved." Israel and the church are referring to branches of the same vine, or else "Israel" is a misnomer for a purely secular entity that is outside of God's plan for salvation. Distinguish between those who "are Israel" (the church) and those who are "of Israel" (not the church) (Roms 9;6).

true, But you can not ignore romans 11.

Which differentiates between Isreal (also called the elect, which are not all saved, blinded in part. etc etc.) and gentiles, Which aalso includes those who are sabed and those who are not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where does the Bible even says a third temple will be built? The Bible talks of two but three?

Your joking right? There might even be 4 temples spoke of.

Where does it say it only talks of two is my question?

 

[SarahM777]

Your joking right? There might even be 4 temples spoke of.

Where does it say it only talks of two is my question?

You didn't answer the question,the third temple spoken of is NOT built by human hands. So where is the third temple built by human hands? Scripture please.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Remember Jesus spoke about Herod's temple being destroyed,John was there when Jesus said those things. John knew the prophecy about the temple,yet John never mentions it being fulfilled? How does that make any sense? Peter,James,John and Andrew were the four that talked to Jesus in private after Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another

Mark 13

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

So then why doesn't John say one word about this happening?

"Tell us when these things will happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

Have the rest of the verses in Chapter 13-14 which were to be signs when these things were to happen, come to pass? Wasn't John "in the Spirit on the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) - basically didn't John receive this revelation through/via the Spirit concerning the Lord's day? I'm not saying yea or nay. At this point just trying to gather understanding -

 

[SarahM777]

"Tell us when these things will happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

Have the rest of the verses in Chapter 13-14 which were to be signs when these things were to happen, come to pass? Wasn't John "in the Spirit on the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) - basically didn't John receive this revelation through/via the Spirit concerning the Lord's day? I'm not saying yea or nay. At this point just trying to gather understanding -

Remember that was in response to these here

Chosen,

John does not say it's a third temple,John saw the temple of his day,he does not say anything of any type of change to the temple as if he is seeing a NEW TEMPLE. John never asks if it's a new temple in any way,shape,or form. John would have noticed any changes to the temple,he had seen so many times before. NONE of the apostles ever mention that Jerusalem and the temple had ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED.John is seeing the same temple he had many,many times before.

I don't know - but isn't Revelation a prophetic book? Isn't John being shown things that will happen? So if the temple was destroyed - yet John sees a temple - what temple is he seeing. Just asking - not weighing in on this whole thread yet. (Oops didn't see Chosen's post we must have posted around the same time)

Remember Jesus spoke about Herod's temple being destroyed,John was there when Jesus said those things. John knew the prophecy about the temple,yet John never mentions it being fulfilled? How does that make any sense? Peter,James,John and Andrew were the four that talked to Jesus in private after Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another

Mark 13

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

So then why doesn't John say one word about this happening?

Jesus was answering this

Mark 13

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

He is telling them what is going to be happening when the temple is going to be destroyed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You didn't answer the question,the third temple spoken of is NOT built by human hands. So where is the third temple built by human hands? Scripture please.

Well we are told the prince who will come will commit an abomination. How? if there is no temple.

We are told Jesus himself will rule out of a temple.

what temple.

You say there is no third temple. but that only comes from your interpretation of scripture. You can;t PROVE there will not be one. only speculate.

thus your question has been answered. Even though you might not like, or even agree with the answer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Remember that was in response to these here







Jesus was answering this

Mark 13

As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

He is telling them what is going to be happening when the temple is going to be destroyed.

He also told of things which would happen.

1. At the end of the age
2. At the time of his coming.

There are three events spoke of here. Not just one.

 

[SarahM777]

Well we are told the prince who will come will commit an abomination. How? if there is no temple.

We are told Jesus himself will rule out of a temple.

what temple.

You say there is no third temple. but that only comes from your interpretation of scripture. You can;t PROVE there will not be one. only speculate.

thus your question has been answered. Even though you might not like, or even agree with the answer.

Sorry EG,

He is addressing the disciples,Peter,James,John and Andrew,when THEY see the abomination that causes desolation,THEY are to flee. You're adding a another temple built by human hands when the scripture speaks of none. Jesus never says there will be a third temple built by human hands. The other temple spoken of is NOT built human hands. So again you have not answered the specific question Where does the Bible show there will be a third temple built by human hands? And if you can't show it then you are basing it on SPECULATION based on your interpretation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry EG,

He is addressing the disciples,Peter,James,John and Andrew,when THEY see the abomination that causes desolation,THEY are to flee.

1. Thats your opinion.
2. Non of them saw any abomination, Even if you claim it hapened in 70 AD. Thus your reasons are invalid.
3. You ignore the fact that Jesus said immediately following this event, there will be great tribulation that..
A. Will be greater than any tribulation before or after (this is not 70 ad. WW2 made AD 70 look like a picnic)
B. Would be so severe, that ALL LIFE on earth would risk being destroyed
C. Because of B, Will cause Jesus to put an end to it with his return (thus proving Jesus spoke of the events
happening at the end of the age, and the sign of his return)

You're adding a another temple built by human hands when the scripture speaks of none. Jesus never says there will be a third temple built by human hands. The other temple spoken of is NOT built human hands. So again you have not answered the specific question Where does the Bible show there will be a third temple built by human hands? And if you can't show it then you are basing it on SPECULATION based on your interpretation.

And you have not proven there will not be. Again, all you have proven is speculation. Yet not based on fact, but your opinion.

 

[SarahM777]

1. Thats your opinion.
2. Non of them saw any abomination, Even if you claim it hapened in 70 AD. Thus your reasons are invalid.
3. You ignore the fact that Jesus said immediately following this event, there will be great tribulation that..
A. Will be greater than any tribulation before or after (this is not 70 ad. WW2 made AD 70 look like a picnic)
B. Would be so severe, that ALL LIFE on earth would risk being destroyed
C. Because of B, Will cause Jesus to put an end to it with his return (thus proving Jesus spoke of the events
happening at the end of the age, and the sign of his return)


And you have not proven there will not be. Again, all you have proven is speculation. Yet not based on fact, but your opinion.

And again you have NOT shown one scripture that shows that there will be a third temple built by human hands. Speculation on your part. Please show from scripture where it says that there MUST be a third temple built by human hands. Jesus does NOT say it,John does NOT say it.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You didn't answer the question,the third temple spoken of is NOT built by human hands. So where is the third temple built by human hands? Scripture please.

Sarah, I gave you Scripture earlier. Read Revelation 11.

The temple which John sees is the temple in the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[SarahM777]

Sarah, I gave you Scripture earlier. Read Revelation 11.

The temple which John sees is the temple in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Sorry you gave me a scripture that you are trying to force it to say that. Again why does John never mention that the temple was destroyed,never mentions it's a different temple that he was so familiar with etc,and never mentions Jerusalem had already been destroyed when he was one of the disciples that Jesus made it very plain to that the temple they were seeing was going to be left with not one stone upon another?

Revelation 11

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”4 They are “the two olive trees”and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a]5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.


Where in that verse does John say it's a third temple built by human hands?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Sorry you gave me a scripture that you are trying to force it to say that. Again why does John never mention that the temple was destroyed,never mentions it's a different temple that he was so familiar with etc,and never mentions Jerusalem had already been destroyed when he was one of the disciples that Jesus made it very plain to that the temple they were seeing was going to be left with not one stone upon another?

No, I gave you a Scripture that clearly teaches that there will be a Temple in the time of Jacob's trouble. All you did is reject the Scriptural evidence given.

Let me ask you a question Sarah, what is the context of Rev. 11?

In fact, what is the context of Revelation 10 and 12?

Revelation 11

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers.2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”4 They are “the two olive trees”and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a]5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.


Where in that verse does John say it's a third temple built by human hands?

Well you kind of answered my first question in regard to the context of Revelation 11. Except let me share what the true Scriptures say in Rev. 11:1-6:


11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. - Revelation 11:1-6 (King James Bible)


We see that in the context of Revelation 11, that the two witnesses of God will prophesy for 1,260 days (3.5 years).



This has to be talking about the time of Jacob's trouble Sarah. It is very clear. This is not debatable, and yet people seem to always want to reject the clear teachings of Scripture.


The time of Jacob's trouble is approximately 7 years. The time of Jacob's trouble will take place in the near future, after the rapture. Therefore the temple that John the apostle saw in his vision was not the temple of 70 A.D.


John penned Revelation at least 25 years after the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. So again, this temple which John sees in Rev. 11 is clearly the one that will be in Jerusalem during the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And again you have NOT shown one scripture that shows that there will be a third temple built by human hands. Speculation on your part. Please show from scripture where it says that there MUST be a third temple built by human hands. Jesus does NOT say it,John does NOT say it.

lol. And again you can not prove there is not.

But if you want to demand your interpretation is correct. And mine is not (in which there MUST be a third temple be built) then you are closed minded. And there is no need go any further..

You can't say I have not prove it, When you can not PROVE your point. That is being a hypocrite!

In your theory Christ should have returned in or aound 70 AD. because your claiming ALL that jesus said happened then.. the fact he did not should give you pause. and at least open your mind a little bit.

 

[zone]

The temple which John sees is the temple in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Herod's Temple is the very one Jesus pointed at and said it would all be torn down.
which is why 70AD happened a long time ago....like in 70AD.
which was also the time of Jacob's trouble < Jewish Romans wars.
which is what Daniel 9 (10; 11 & 12) is about.

long time ago.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I gave you a Scripture that clearly teaches that there will be a Temple in the time of Jacob's trouble. All you did is reject the Scriptural evidence given.

Let me ask you a question Sarah, what is the context of Rev. 11?

In fact, what is the context of Revelation 10 and 12?






Well you kind of answered my first question in regard to the context of Revelation 11. Except let me share what the true Scriptures say in Rev. 11:1-6:


11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. - Revelation 11:1-6 (King James Bible)


We see that in the context of Revelation 11, that the two witnesses of God will prophesy for 1,260 days (3.5 years).



This has to be talking about the time of Jacob's trouble Sarah. It is very clear. This is not debatable, and yet people seem to always want to reject the clear teachings of Scripture.


The time of Jacob's trouble is approximately 7 years. The time of Jacob's trouble will take place in the near future, after the rapture. Therefore the temple that John the apostle saw in his vision was not the temple of 70 A.D.


John penned Revelation at least 25 years after the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. So again, this temple which John sees in Rev. 11 is clearly the one that will be in Jerusalem during the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week).

The time of Jacobs trouble is only 3 1/2 years. There is no trouble for the first 3 1/2 years