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Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
By analyzing and intellectualizing each word and verse of the bible separate from having the bible teach about the God principles, it leads to not understanding any of the bible at all. It is like obedience to God by defining the specifics of each direction. It is the same principle that had the Jews decide exactly how many feet they could walk on Sabbath to obey the direction to give God such control on the Sabbath they didn't work.
The God principle all through all of scripture is the same. There is no where in scripture a direction that tells us we have ever, through the 7,000 years of the years it records, been able to save ourselves without grace. If anyone analyzes a scripture to say differently, it does not agree with God's plan He laid out and so it has been analyzed wrong.
By analyzing and intellectualizing each word and verse of the bible separate from having the bible teach about the God principles, it leads to not understanding any of the bible at all. It is like obedience to God by defining the specifics of each direction. It is the same principle that had the Jews decide exactly how many feet they could walk on Sabbath to obey the direction to give God such control on the Sabbath they didn't work.
The God principle all through all of scripture is the same. There is no where in scripture a direction that tells us we have ever, through the 7,000 years of the years it records, been able to save ourselves without grace. If anyone analyzes a scripture to say differently, it does not agree with God's plan He laid out and so it has been analyzed wrong.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
You might want to take that up with Paul.
He did more than his share of that in explaining the meaning of the OT in the light of the NT.
Do you have a basis for indicating that understanding the relation of the Mosaic law to the Mosaic covenant has no bearing on the understanding of Christ's grace?
Are you saying that my post quoted above says that we are able to save ourselves without grace?
Read it again.
You might want to take that up with Paul.
He did more than his share of that in explaining the meaning of the OT in the light of the NT.
Do you have a basis for indicating that understanding the relation of the Mosaic law to the Mosaic covenant has no bearing on the understanding of Christ's grace?
Are you saying that my post quoted above says that we are able to save ourselves without grace?
Read it again.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
I think Paul is often misunderstood. We have to try to stand in his shoes and look at what he was facing in his ministry to understand what he said, instead of looking a him as talking directly to us in our circumstances. We need to do this while always watching his words to find the eternal truths of God Paul was giving us.
What Paul was facing was a direction from many powerful in the church of the day belittling giving the message of Christ and the gospel in favor of giving the message of to do it "this" way with diet and circumcision. Paul would NEVER say any words of God were to be gotten rid of.
I think when we try to say that the teaching of the Mosaic Law and the teaching of grace affect the working of either, we are adding words to scripture that isn't there. I think we need to learn some of the ways that God tells us to express love that is in the law. God gave these suggestions for living to a world so wicked children were killed as a sacrifice to false Gods, in the world God told us to live in where there were only expressions of love. We should listen.
I think we need to know that we are under grace, we have Christ, and law cannot kill us.
We also need to understand exactly and precisely how Christ changed the law. Christ added spirit and love.
I think Paul is often misunderstood. We have to try to stand in his shoes and look at what he was facing in his ministry to understand what he said, instead of looking a him as talking directly to us in our circumstances. We need to do this while always watching his words to find the eternal truths of God Paul was giving us.
What Paul was facing was a direction from many powerful in the church of the day belittling giving the message of Christ and the gospel in favor of giving the message of to do it "this" way with diet and circumcision. Paul would NEVER say any words of God were to be gotten rid of.
I think when we try to say that the teaching of the Mosaic Law and the teaching of grace affect the working of either, we are adding words to scripture that isn't there. I think we need to learn some of the ways that God tells us to express love that is in the law. God gave these suggestions for living to a world so wicked children were killed as a sacrifice to false Gods, in the world God told us to live in where there were only expressions of love. We should listen.
I think we need to know that we are under grace, we have Christ, and law cannot kill us.
We also need to understand exactly and precisely how Christ changed the law. Christ added spirit and love.
B
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
Does everyone here agree that the law was made to point out sin? Okay good. Then it's no different than a mirror pointing out the dirt on your face. The mirror can't wash the dirt from your face, all it does it point out the obvious. Grace of God is like soap and water, that's what you use to clean your face. Makes sense?
We got different laws, we got the law, the mosaic law, and the law of Christ. Adam had law, it's was the command to not eat the fruit of the tree of the K.O.G.A.E. that was a law of God. Now mosaic law was given to the children of Israel through Moses. That was a covenant between God and Israel. Not God and the church. God gave us the law of Christ, this is the grace of God. Following the Spirit is far better than following the letter.
Does everyone here agree that the law was made to point out sin? Okay good. Then it's no different than a mirror pointing out the dirt on your face. The mirror can't wash the dirt from your face, all it does it point out the obvious. Grace of God is like soap and water, that's what you use to clean your face. Makes sense?
We got different laws, we got the law, the mosaic law, and the law of Christ. Adam had law, it's was the command to not eat the fruit of the tree of the K.O.G.A.E. that was a law of God. Now mosaic law was given to the children of Israel through Moses. That was a covenant between God and Israel. Not God and the church. God gave us the law of Christ, this is the grace of God. Following the Spirit is far better than following the letter.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
There are over 350 times that the word law is used in the KJV translation of the bible, so the study of the law as God sees it and wants us to know can not, I think, be summed up in a statement of why God gave us the law. The law and why God gave it is much, much more than that.
I also do not think that God says the law of Moses and the Law of Christ is entirely different. One is the outgrowth of the other. God created the children of Israel to show God principles to us, until Abraham the world just wasn't getting it. So I also don't think that what God tells Israel are what we are to close our minds from hearing.
You and I are reading the same words, and hearing them in a different way.
There are over 350 times that the word law is used in the KJV translation of the bible, so the study of the law as God sees it and wants us to know can not, I think, be summed up in a statement of why God gave us the law. The law and why God gave it is much, much more than that.
I also do not think that God says the law of Moses and the Law of Christ is entirely different. One is the outgrowth of the other. God created the children of Israel to show God principles to us, until Abraham the world just wasn't getting it. So I also don't think that what God tells Israel are what we are to close our minds from hearing.
You and I are reading the same words, and hearing them in a different way.
B
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
no no, redtent the law of Moses and the law of Christ are on different heights. What the law of Moses couldn't do, Christ did. In the law of Moses, it appointed high priests, that was bound by the Law. Christ came through a completely different system, became His own High Priest, and made a law for us to abide by. You cannot take pieces from a whole law. It's like a fabric, you don't cut it up in pieces and say it's still a cloak. Christ can't be a high priest replacement in the law of Moses, He would have been a Levite as the Law demands. He is a completely different High Priest to a better law.
no no, redtent the law of Moses and the law of Christ are on different heights. What the law of Moses couldn't do, Christ did. In the law of Moses, it appointed high priests, that was bound by the Law. Christ came through a completely different system, became His own High Priest, and made a law for us to abide by. You cannot take pieces from a whole law. It's like a fabric, you don't cut it up in pieces and say it's still a cloak. Christ can't be a high priest replacement in the law of Moses, He would have been a Levite as the Law demands. He is a completely different High Priest to a better law.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
I still think that there is something not right in reasoning this through in that way. The conclusion you must come to in the steps you take results in disunity in God, and that cannot be. There is spiritual connection between the law of Moses and the law of Christ. We need to know both the connection and the differences.
The entire book of Hebrews tells of the need to grow in Christ, not to wipe out all that has been but use that as a basis to grow.
I don't think it was a completely different high priest we have in Christ, but the former high priest was an outline of the real thing. Those things are called a shadow. If we saw something in shadow only, then we saw the real image the shadow came from, you wouldn't wipe out the shadow because the real thing is there.
I think law is all one piece and cannot be cut up at all. We can only see a bit of it at a time, but spiritually the reality is all of one piece. The actual law in its entirety can only be grasped by us by reading all the words God gives us telling us about it, and every single bit of it is truth. Man's seeing only one part of it cannot change the reality of the spiritual meaning of law.
I still think that there is something not right in reasoning this through in that way. The conclusion you must come to in the steps you take results in disunity in God, and that cannot be. There is spiritual connection between the law of Moses and the law of Christ. We need to know both the connection and the differences.
The entire book of Hebrews tells of the need to grow in Christ, not to wipe out all that has been but use that as a basis to grow.
I don't think it was a completely different high priest we have in Christ, but the former high priest was an outline of the real thing. Those things are called a shadow. If we saw something in shadow only, then we saw the real image the shadow came from, you wouldn't wipe out the shadow because the real thing is there.
I think law is all one piece and cannot be cut up at all. We can only see a bit of it at a time, but spiritually the reality is all of one piece. The actual law in its entirety can only be grasped by us by reading all the words God gives us telling us about it, and every single bit of it is truth. Man's seeing only one part of it cannot change the reality of the spiritual meaning of law.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This means?
There are no laws of Moses, The laws Moses gave to the people were the very words of God not his own words. Yeshua is called the word and therefore he would be in agreement to what was spoken.
Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This means?
There are no laws of Moses, The laws Moses gave to the people were the very words of God not his own words. Yeshua is called the word and therefore he would be in agreement to what was spoken.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
I mentioned Paul as an example of systematically reasoning in his explanation of the OT in the light of the NT.
But Paul is not the one who revealed that the law was changed (Heb 7:12) and set aside (Heb 7:18-19).
Well, God's laws were not suggestions for living, they were commandments,
nor were they given to the world, they were given only to Israel, as the conditions of the Sinaitic covenant.
It is God who changed the law (Heb 7:12). . .when he made Christ the eternal High Priest
(Heb 7:17, 21) of a new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek (Heb 7:12), thereby
setting aside the Mosaic law on which the Aaronic priesthood was based (Heb 7:11).
I mentioned Paul as an example of systematically reasoning in his explanation of the OT in the light of the NT.
But Paul is not the one who revealed that the law was changed (Heb 7:12) and set aside (Heb 7:18-19).
Well, God's laws were not suggestions for living, they were commandments,
nor were they given to the world, they were given only to Israel, as the conditions of the Sinaitic covenant.
It is God who changed the law (Heb 7:12). . .when he made Christ the eternal High Priest
(Heb 7:17, 21) of a new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek (Heb 7:12), thereby
setting aside the Mosaic law on which the Aaronic priesthood was based (Heb 7:11).
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
We both agree that the law was changed by Christ, our problem is not in changing but Moses being cancelled.
Also, we are having a problem with scripture being given to Israel only and not for our ears. I don't think God created this race He called Israel without the entire human race in mind.
There is a difference in your and my concept of "change". We agree on that change was made, I believe that when God gave us His Son, God meant that as a means for us to grow and change as opposed to the idea of wiping out all the instructions and words before and starting all new.
We both agree that the law was changed by Christ, our problem is not in changing but Moses being cancelled.
Also, we are having a problem with scripture being given to Israel only and not for our ears. I don't think God created this race He called Israel without the entire human race in mind.
There is a difference in your and my concept of "change". We agree on that change was made, I believe that when God gave us His Son, God meant that as a means for us to grow and change as opposed to the idea of wiping out all the instructions and words before and starting all new.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
That God himself changed the priesthood from the Aaronic priesthood to the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11), thereby changing the Law (Heb 7:12), setting it aside (Heb 7:18-19), is without dispute in the word of God.
That the law of Christ, which is the law of love (Mt 22:37-41) fulfills the Ten Commandments (Ro 13:8-10) is without dispute in the word of God.
That the law of Moses is not the means of righteousness (Ro 3:20) to salvation is without dispute in the word of God.
The OT is not "wiped out," the NT presents its intended purpose.
That God himself changed the priesthood from the Aaronic priesthood to the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11), thereby changing the Law (Heb 7:12), setting it aside (Heb 7:18-19), is without dispute in the word of God.
That the law of Christ, which is the law of love (Mt 22:37-41) fulfills the Ten Commandments (Ro 13:8-10) is without dispute in the word of God.
That the law of Moses is not the means of righteousness (Ro 3:20) to salvation is without dispute in the word of God.
The OT is not "wiped out," the NT presents its intended purpose.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
I just quoted the name of the thread. The messiah is the answer to the law in what we could not do because of our weakness. He has become our strength. He is not called the law, even the Law is not called the Law but the teachings or instructions
I just quoted the name of the thread. The messiah is the answer to the law in what we could not do because of our weakness. He has become our strength. He is not called the law, even the Law is not called the Law but the teachings or instructions
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
How then can we explain these verses found in Revelation 12:17 .....'And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.'
Revelation 14:12 .....'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'
Revelation 22:14 .....'Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.'
As we can see, there is an amazing promise for all those who are DOERS of God's commandments. But we don't obey God to be saved, we obey Him because we ARE saved, and obedience to His law is the outworking of His grace in our lives and is the EVIDENCE of our faith in Jesus ... 1 John 5:2-3 .....'By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' ... This is what God wants. For us to keep His commandments out of love for who He is and what He has done for us.
How then can we explain these verses found in Revelation 12:17 .....'And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.'
Revelation 14:12 .....'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'
Revelation 22:14 .....'Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.'
As we can see, there is an amazing promise for all those who are DOERS of God's commandments. But we don't obey God to be saved, we obey Him because we ARE saved, and obedience to His law is the outworking of His grace in our lives and is the EVIDENCE of our faith in Jesus ... 1 John 5:2-3 .....'By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' ... This is what God wants. For us to keep His commandments out of love for who He is and what He has done for us.
Re: Christ is called ”The Law” in Scripture, He supercedes the laws of Moses. This me
It was not just about “diet and circumcision”… it was also about the entire “law” within the context of the old covenant still observed by many Jewish converts as a tradition. The decree that came out of Jerusalem settled the dispute once and for all whether or not gentiles should not only be circumcised but should they also “keep the law.”
“…some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment.”
It’s clear through all of Paul’s letters that he never instructed the gentiles to “keep the law” under the old covenant not just "diet and circumcision" and neither did the chief apostles out of Jerusalem. So the matter was settled once and for all by a definitive decree with a specific and finite set of instructions that “no greater burden” should be added to by additional decree otherwise this would be going against the Holy Spirit:
“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.”
If the matter was settled then with a final decree authorized by the Holy Spirit coming through the Jews out of Jerusalem why is the matter still not settled today among many non-Jews?
It was not just about “diet and circumcision”… it was also about the entire “law” within the context of the old covenant still observed by many Jewish converts as a tradition. The decree that came out of Jerusalem settled the dispute once and for all whether or not gentiles should not only be circumcised but should they also “keep the law.”
“…some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment.”
It’s clear through all of Paul’s letters that he never instructed the gentiles to “keep the law” under the old covenant not just "diet and circumcision" and neither did the chief apostles out of Jerusalem. So the matter was settled once and for all by a definitive decree with a specific and finite set of instructions that “no greater burden” should be added to by additional decree otherwise this would be going against the Holy Spirit:
“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.”
If the matter was settled then with a final decree authorized by the Holy Spirit coming through the Jews out of Jerusalem why is the matter still not settled today among many non-Jews?