Compassion and the Republican Party of the USA

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RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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I found both these articles very interesting, and well on target. What I don't find is the two of them conflicting. Taken to polarizing extremes, like we have now, sure they don't work. But if we're willing to meet in the middle, these 20 principles complement each other very well. That's the problem here, we've lost the ability to meet in the middle. Maybe even the desire to.

Liberals definately embrace their principles. They promote them in their entirety. As I read the conservative's principles, I thought, not so much. As an example, in the 5th principle we find: For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. But what conservatives are now promoting is killing orders and classes, and hoarding material conditions, to where there will soon be only 2 inequalities. A healthy civilization will not function on only 2 inequalities. The diversity of condition is what made this country great. You strangle that and you strangle our greatness.
 

Drett

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2013
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I'd like to ask you, Drett, if you're willing to participate. Are there any of The Ten Conservative Principles of Russell Kirk That you disagree with? I'd like to know which ones and why, to get a different perspective on things. And just to be clear, I'm not trying to start a debate or an argument. I marvel at the different definitions of Conservative, and I generally don't consider myself one. However, by Russel Kirk's list, I would qualify. I was looking to get a sort of counter-point to the principles.
Hi Jim

Number 1. I believe in moral order as long as it comes from God.

Number 2. I don't believe in sustaining custom and the status quo just for the sake of continuity. Abraham and Jesus fought against stray customs. They were considered troublemakers from the conservatives of the day I am sure.

Number 3. I can go with this.

Number 4. I can go with this, especially now with the complexity of society. You need someone special to bring in sudden reforms. I am willing to wait for Jesus for this.

Number 5. From my understanding this is a belief in the class system and having people at different levels and treated differently. I am probably wrong. I don't go with this. People should be judged by their ability not on the circumstances of their birth.

Number 6. This speaks of humans are not perfect. No society can be perfect. A person who believes in the return of Jesus would not go with this.

Number 7. This goes with private property not shared. I can go with this. I would hope the people who have voluntarily provide a leg up for those who have not.

Number 8. Decisions in a community are local and voluntary. I can go with that.

Number 9. Limits in political power. I can go with that.

Number 10. In the area of social improvement the conservative is not against it but more cautious. I can go with that.

As I said I may well have misunderstood some of these but after reading this list there is no way any of the prophets were conservative thinking. They were about turning the peoples lives upside done and forcing in a quick change to the status quo. It may well be that the largest force the prophets had to fight against in bringing in this change was conservative thinking.

Example

When Abraham told his people about God they were happy to stick with the custom of idol worship. They saw Abraham has a dangerous upheaval of the status quo. His preaching of a better world would go against their belief humans are imperfect and no world can be perfect.
 
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Jul 25, 2005
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I found both these articles very interesting, and well on target. What I don't find is the two of them conflicting. Taken to polarizing extremes, like we have now, sure they don't work. But if we're willing to meet in the middle, these 20 principles complement each other very well. That's the problem here, we've lost the ability to meet in the middle. Maybe even the desire to.

Liberals definately embrace their principles. They promote them in their entirety. As I read the conservative's principles, I thought, not so much. As an example, in the 5th principle we find: For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. But what conservatives are now promoting is killing orders and classes, and hoarding material conditions, to where there will soon be only 2 inequalities. A healthy civilization will not function on only 2 inequalities. The diversity of condition is what made this country great. You strangle that and you strangle our greatness.
You are looking at the ten principles of classical liberalism and conservatism. Both are not polar opposites today. They tend to forum coalitions on the Right.

The ten principles of progressivism (liberalism without the "classical" in front of it), if written, would be more diametrically opposed to either of the lists mentioned.
 
Mar 1, 2012
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Not sure any liberal would post the ten principles of liberalism...

if principle and liberalsm can be used in the same sentence.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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stands on principles? What are you talking about? They are bigger hypocrits then any I see. They are the least compassionate most unchristian liars I've ever seen and I have tons of mirrors in my house even. lol. seriously tho, they are as far from Christ's teachings as one could get.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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I love all these Christians that see the gluttony of the super rich and the warnings of Jesus about the camels threading the eye into heaven, and some how convince themselves that he didn't mean what he said. Those of us that allow, contribute, take part in and feed this super gluttony at the expense of the flock do so at our own peril of both body and soul. You have been brain soiled by the greedy that say freedom gives you the moral right to do morally wrong things. Your tea has been spiked by your own vanity and dreams of beating the world at a losing game.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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as the super rich grow ever so, they take away more and more land, power, democracy, rights, time etc. etc. from us all those that have given them their god like status. pharaohs we've and God have over thrown countless times and in countless place from the very beginning till today where we are gonna do it all over again. let's hope its once and for all. those so called Christians, jews, muslims, americans israeilis, Saudis etc.. that don't see or deny that none of these groups ever stood for giving this power to a chosen few, lie to themselves and us all. grow up and stand once again on the side of God, truth, liberty, righteousness, peace, love, understanding, compassion etc.. etc.. you young dogs learn all the new tricks but keep falling for the old fake stick throw. dah dah dah.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,594
77
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Hi Jim

Number 1. I believe in moral order as long as it comes from God.

Number 2. I don't believe in sustaining custom and the status quo just for the sake of continuity. Abraham and Jesus fought against stray customs. They were considered troublemakers from the conservatives of the day I am sure.

Number 3. I can go with this.

Number 4. I can go with this, especially now with the complexity of society. You need someone special to bring in sudden reforms. I am willing to wait for Jesus for this.

Number 5. From my understanding this is a belief in the class system and having people at different levels and treated differently. I am probably wrong. I don't go with this. People should be judged by their ability not on the circumstances of their birth.

Number 6. This speaks of humans are not perfect. No society can be perfect. A person who believes in the return of Jesus would not go with this.

Number 7. This goes with private property not shared. I can go with this. I would hope the people who have voluntarily provide a leg up for those who have not.

Number 8. Decisions in a community are local and voluntary. I can go with that.

Number 9. Limits in political power. I can go with that.

Number 10. In the area of social improvement the conservative is not against it but more cautious. I can go with that.

As I said I may well have misunderstood some of these but after reading this list there is no way any of the prophets were conservative thinking. They were about turning the peoples lives upside done and forcing in a quick change to the status quo. It may well be that the largest force the prophets had to fight against in bringing in this change was conservative thinking.

Example

When Abraham told his people about God they were happy to stick with the custom of idol worship. They saw Abraham has a dangerous upheaval of the status quo. His preaching of a better world would go against their belief humans are imperfect and no world can be perfect.

Thanks for the response! I think it's important to try and see both sides of an issue. LOL, I just posted a news story in the news section that turns out was very one-sided, and another member put some balance into the equation, which was much appreciated.

In my opinion, number 2 is the thing that separates Conservatives and Classic Liberals the most. Often you hear of Conservatives talking about how they want things to be, and they often use an historic example. Liberals talking about how the way they would like things to be often use a more futuristic type of approach.

I can definitely see your opposition to number 5, as explained above. I think Kirk was more saying that, for example, any society needs roofers and those who are buying roofs. Some wealthy people in a society open up new markets that wouldn't exist otherwise. But again, this illustrates another problem, which is personal interpretation. I believe the principles as laid out to me to be entirely Christian, but another might read them and interpret them differently and find them to be not Christian at all.

Still though, I think agreeing with 8 out of 10 is pretty cool. :) I agreed basically with 9 out of ten from the Liberal list, disagreeing with number 10 as contrary to numbers 1 and 4.

One thing that really bothers me is Liberal's non-adherence to those principles you posted. (I am speaking of American Liberals, I realize you are not American.) For example, the "Liberal" members of the Supreme Court soundly trampled Classic Liberal principles number 1 and 4 in Kelo v. New London. LINK>> Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find that troubling, and it causes me to wonder what modern Liberals are, clearly they are not Classic Liberals.
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
2,594
77
48
I found both these articles very interesting, and well on target. What I don't find is the two of them conflicting. Taken to polarizing extremes, like we have now, sure they don't work. But if we're willing to meet in the middle, these 20 principles complement each other very well. That's the problem here, we've lost the ability to meet in the middle. Maybe even the desire to.

Liberals definately embrace their principles. They promote them in their entirety. As I read the conservative's principles, I thought, not so much. As an example, in the 5th principle we find: For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. But what conservatives are now promoting is killing orders and classes, and hoarding material conditions, to where there will soon be only 2 inequalities. A healthy civilization will not function on only 2 inequalities. The diversity of condition is what made this country great. You strangle that and you strangle our greatness.

I think compromise could be great also. There are quite a few admirable principles in Classic Liberalism.


I posted this in response to Drett, but I think it's still applicable here, in regard to Liberals embracing their principles. Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Liberals on the SCOTUS clearly violated principles 1 & 4, and the loudest complaints I heard about the decision came not from Liberals, but Conservatives. In fact I can't recall hearing any Liberals complain about the decision. Like I say, it makes me think modern Liberals are not Classic Liberals at all.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Its not your government?

Conspirasy theories... I outgrew them at 12.

Marxism and socialism are demonstrable ideologies. Its not me who claims hidden societies and powers that be.

Reality is on the wain.
I see I left this thread a little early. Outgrew them at 12.... hogwash. The ridiculous as well as the wise know that much about conspiracies are true...... true enough for illumined ones to mount a disinformation campaign to make the real ones hard to recognize...... the average population doesn't believe on account of it being ''blown open'' instead of it being covered up..... to tell enough of the truth & then veer the whole thing off course with Hollywood charades..... hiding the real thing in broad daylight.
Your positive attitude of yourself is a little too large. It reveals more about your identity than anything else.

Since obviously you're not stupid, it leaves little left to wonder what you are.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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Conservatives are not and cannot be, by principle, bigots. We judge by charactor, or more basic, by your ability to add to society in a number of ways. We see ability, not skin color or ethnicity, unlike liberals and those too ashamed to call themselves liberals, the ''moderates'', who judge solely by pigments and where you were born.

In fact to call a conservative bigoted is, for all leftists, hypocritical.

Anyone can be a bigot..... Anyone wrapped in flesh can......
 
Aug 15, 2009
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oh...what about people who can not àdd to society`.

what do you mean by ADD to.
and what kind of society are you talking about.:)

We see ability, not skin color or ethnicity - uh...no. thats not what i see.

what if some are less àble`than others....junk em:confused:
That's a good question. With Obama's health reform putting poor people's insurance on Medicare, that pretty much divides the "keepers" from the "nots", doesn't it?
 
Mar 1, 2012
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The story of the rich young ruler was not about rich people, thats a marxist interpretation. If you read the entire account, Jesus points out the true meaning and teaching of that scripture.

The apostles ask after hearing Jesus say its easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven, they ask, then how can one be saved.


The teaching....For man this is impossible.

The rich young ruler was used as an example because in Jesus day, the rich and powerful were thought to be blessed by God. This young ruler even claimed to be devout as well. This would have been the perfect example of someone earning their way to heaven...and Jesus came against that ideal.

With man this is impossible. Bottom line, God saves.

Marxism interpretations....probably not the best filter.

Conspiracy theories....I don't know why we even entertain them. They are the witness field of the inept, the foundations of the proud.

Conservative ideals rest a lot upon capitalism. We are not trying to build a social utopia, we try to earn a living. In that we employ those who can help us the most, qualifications over ethnicity race or sexual orientation.....another reason why this Obama fiasco has been such an experimental failure of the liberal principle Diversity is not the reason to pick advisers.

To claim conservatives are bigots by their ideology is hypocritical. Conservatives do not need racism and covetness and abortion to survive politically. Liberals cannot exist without them. Hence, to have political power, and the ideology that supports bigger government must be seeking power, these ideals the left claim to hate, they must not only exist, they must be increased.

Why not earn your life? The problem with liberal ideology is it encourages failure. It creates victimhoods and needs failure to exist as a political power.

Jesus said we will always have poor with us. Neither ideology will cure poverty but conservative ideals will lead to the least number of poor that is possible to have. Having life to be on each individual terms is an encouragement to succeed. Giving people stuff only creates liabilities and dependencies.

Now before you go to the liberal talking points of helping those who cannot help themselves, its not a conservative ideal to let the infirm, widow and orphan to just die. Conservatives give much more to charities than liberals do..

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers
 
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Drett

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2013
1,663
38
48
Not sure any liberal would post the ten principles of liberalism...

if principle and liberalsm can be used in the same sentence.
Why don't you post it and explain what is wrong with it ? I am sure if you ask Ritter nicely he would provide a list for you. :)
 
Mar 1, 2012
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As a conservative I gave what I thought were core conservative beliefs.

I would think a liberal, if anyone would admit to being one, should make that list
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
I think compromise could be great also.

it makes me think modern Liberals are not Classic Liberals at all.
That's very true, modern liberals aren't classic liberals, just as modern conservatives aren't classic conservatives. The classic method was to compromise, but we swing our pendulums pretty wide these days. The art of compromise seems to be lost, and again I have to ask if maybe we haven't lost our desire to.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
The story of the rich young ruler was not about rich people, thats a marxist interpretation. If you read the entire account, Jesus points out the true meaning and teaching of that scripture.

The apostles ask after hearing Jesus say its easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven, they ask, then how can one be saved.


The teaching....For man this is impossible.

The rich young ruler was used as an example because in Jesus day, the rich and powerful were thought to be blessed by God. This young ruler even claimed to be devout as well. This would have been the perfect example of someone earning their way to heaven...and Jesus came against that ideal.

With man this is impossible. Bottom line, God saves.

Marxism interpretations....probably not the best filter.

Conspiracy theories....I don't know why we even entertain them. They are the witness field of the inept, the foundations of the proud.

Conservative ideals rest a lot upon capitalism. We are not trying to build a social utopia, we try to earn a living. In that we employ those who can help us the most, qualifications over ethnicity race or sexual orientation.....another reason why this Obama fiasco has been such an experimental failure of the liberal principle Diversity is not the reason to pick advisers.

To claim conservatives are bigots by their ideology is hypocritical. Conservatives do not need racism and covetness and abortion to survive politically. Liberals cannot exist without them. Hence, to have political power, and the ideology that supports bigger government must be seeking power, these ideals the left claim to hate, they must not only exist, they must be increased.

Why not earn your life? The problem with liberal ideology is it encourages failure. It creates victimhoods and needs failure to exist as a political power.

Jesus said we will always have poor with us. Neither ideology will cure poverty but conservative ideals will lead to the least number of poor that is possible to have. Having life to be on each individual terms is an encouragement to succeed. Giving people stuff only creates liabilities and dependencies.

Now before you go to the liberal talking points of helping those who cannot help themselves, its not a conservative ideal to let the infirm, widow and orphan to just die. Conservatives give much more to charities than liberals do..

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers
Well now, let's just look at that rich man passage and see what it really says:

Matthew 19: 16Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,19honor your father and mother,’[SUP]c[/SUP] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP]d[/SUP]”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[SUP]e[/SUP] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

*

So some guy comes up to Jesus, asks what he must do to get in, Jesus tells him to keep the commandments. He says he does all that, then Jesus tells him to give away all his wealth to the poor, which will buy him treasure in heaven. So the guy sulks away because he's a rich man, banking on the wealth of this world.

As he leaves Jesus tells His disciples how hard it is for rich people to enter the kingdom.

Who then can be saved? They ask. He says with God all things are possible. So even with the rich, it is possible.

So they say, we have given up everything up for You, what does that get us then?

He tells them that in the end they will rule over all. That all who leave everything behind for Him will receive a hundred times more in the eternal life. That those on the top will be on the bottom, and vice-versa.

*

I don't know where all this falls in amongst the liberal/conservative scale, but I think this is all to say that if you're saving up treasure in this world, you're going to be regretting it in the next.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
The story of the rich young ruler was not about rich people, thats a marxist interpretation. If you read the entire account, Jesus points out the true meaning and teaching of that scripture.

The apostles ask after hearing Jesus say its easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven, they ask, then how can one be saved.


The teaching....For man this is impossible.

The rich young ruler was used as an example because in Jesus day, the rich and powerful were thought to be blessed by God. This young ruler even claimed to be devout as well. This would have been the perfect example of someone earning their way to heaven...and Jesus came against that ideal.

With man this is impossible. Bottom line, God saves.

Marxism interpretations....probably not the best filter.

Conspiracy theories....I don't know why we even entertain them. They are the witness field of the inept, the foundations of the proud.

Conservative ideals rest a lot upon capitalism. We are not trying to build a social utopia, we try to earn a living. In that we employ those who can help us the most, qualifications over ethnicity race or sexual orientation.....another reason why this Obama fiasco has been such an experimental failure of the liberal principle Diversity is not the reason to pick advisers.

To claim conservatives are bigots by their ideology is hypocritical. Conservatives do not need racism and covetness and abortion to survive politically. Liberals cannot exist without them. Hence, to have political power, and the ideology that supports bigger government must be seeking power, these ideals the left claim to hate, they must not only exist, they must be increased.

Why not earn your life? The problem with liberal ideology is it encourages failure. It creates victimhoods and needs failure to exist as a political power.

Jesus said we will always have poor with us. Neither ideology will cure poverty but conservative ideals will lead to the least number of poor that is possible to have. Having life to be on each individual terms is an encouragement to succeed. Giving people stuff only creates liabilities and dependencies.

Now before you go to the liberal talking points of helping those who cannot help themselves, its not a conservative ideal to let the infirm, widow and orphan to just die. Conservatives give much more to charities than liberals do..

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers
I can't believe you fixed your mouth to say this isn't about the rich at all. Do you really think we're all that stupid?
 
Mar 1, 2012
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I think most are not marxist.

Stupid is as stupid does
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
Please explain your obsession with marxists.