The Israel of God
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John 10:1-6, 14:1-4.
1 Corinthians 15:51-55.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18.
Revelation 4:1-2.
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what these Scriptues dont even talk about this, and the last 2 prove there in no pre-trib
John 10:1-6 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
John 14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;[SUP][a][/SUP] believe also in me. [SUP]2 [/SUP]In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And you know the way to where I am going.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
Revelation 4:1-2 4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
[SUP]1 Thessalonians 4:15-1815 [/SUP]For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[SUP][a][/SUP] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore encourage one another with these words."
1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."
The pre-trib doctrine was never preached before around 1830, and is in place to get people to accepth the anti-Messiah, they will be told "meeting Christ in the air is not literal, it's is a higher state of consciousness." The UN has been publishing magazines about thier comin "cosmic christ" for 40 years or something, called "Matreyu." (sp) You need to look into "PROJECT BLUE BEAM," they plan on using hologram technology to fake the second coming, and this is no cracker-jack attempt, it real and it's real serious. Many will fall for it if it happens.
Mattithyah 24:29-31, "Immediately, but after the tribulation of those days will the sun be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His malakim with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of earth to the other."
Mattithyah 24:24-25, "For there will arise false messiahs and false prophets who will show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect. Behold, I have warned you beforehand!"
Here are some links
CNN Hologram TV First - YouTube
CNN Will I Am Hologram, First time on TV - YouTube
223 - The New Age Agenda - Amazing Discoveries TV
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEMZc_UXefg
Project Blue Beam By Serge Monast (1994)
[/URL]
Are made to be realized in the Church ! cont
John in Rev 2:17 which reads:
17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Is promising to the church which are overcomer's a new name. This is a clear reference to the prediction or prophecy in Isa 62:2
2And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Also vs Isa 65:15
15And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Israels future royal status and restoration to God, are being here applied to the Church, individual members of it.95
John in Rev 2:17 which reads:
17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Is promising to the church which are overcomer's a new name. This is a clear reference to the prediction or prophecy in Isa 62:2
2And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Also vs Isa 65:15
15And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Israels future royal status and restoration to God, are being here applied to the Church, individual members of it.95
And none of those passages speak of the church being raptured before great tribulation. Pre-tribulation rapture and premillennialism is unbiblical. I'm not sure why you're still defending it.
Yes they do Starfield. Your problem is that you do not rightly divide the word of truth. The pre-trib. Rapture and Premillennialism are Bibilcal and it is the only system which the Holy Bible teaches.
The time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Church. Its for the Nation of Israel. That's why Moses and Elijah come back. They confirm the New Testament with signs following. They are dealing with Israel. Also starfield, another thing that you need to consider is that there is only one group which is sealed during the time of Jacob's trouble and that is the twelve tribes of the children Of Israel. If the Body Of Christ went through the time of Jacob's like you and Zone keep implying, then there would be two groups of people which are sealed. Why? Every Christian in the Body of Christ is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13 & 4:30). And no where in the book of Revelation are there two groups mentioned that are both sealed. The only group of sealed servants that is mentioned in the book of Revelation is the twelve tribes of the children of Israel (Revelation 7:3-8).
Therefore the Body of Christ will not go through the time of Jacob's trouble. The Body of Christ has to be removed off of the earth first. Then once we are gone. Sometime afterward, the time of Jacob's trouble will start.
You see Starfield, you have to study and rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).
It's that simple. Stop complicating it. You need to acknowledge the Dispensational distinctions which God has placed in His holy word, the Authorized King James Bible.
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Please show pre-trib from certain and unequivocal NT teaching,
not from uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles,
which can be, and are, interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.
I do not find such teaching in the NT.
The teaching I do find is totally to the contrary.
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Jacob's trouble is history.
Where did you get that idea from? They will not come back. Let's look at Malachi 4:5-6, Matthew 11:10-14, and Luke 1:13-17...
Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
It says Elijah was to come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord (Jerusalem's destruction during the first century). John the Baptist fulfilled this; he came in the spirit and power of Elijah preaching repentance to unbelieving Israel shortly before Christ came and the imminent judgment upon the Jewish nation.
Matthew 11:10-14
10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Luke 1:13-17
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
B
BradC
Guest
ChosenbyHim, you do not have to show or prove a single thing to any of those who remain foolish hearted and have hangups because of their unbelief. Let them be who they are and live with their own leaven corrupting others with their foolish doctrine. Keep building yourself up in the most holy faith and in the love of God and let them wrestle with these things to their own hurt.
B
BradC
Guest
There is no fruit and no benefit in Christ arguing with you and others about this. Go your way and believe as you wish and leave the others alone. Take your doctrine and go build a church with it, if you think it is of God and according to the scriptures. Let us know how fervent the believers are who you have given the gospel and led to Christ and the kind of relationship they have with the Lord. That is the proof and the fruit of a Spirit filled and Spirit led life that is constrained by the love of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified. If we abide in Christ and his words abide in us then we will bear MUCH fruit and that fruit will remain.
No it is not. You are in error Starfield.
The time of Jacob's trouble will happen during Daniel's 70th week. That is future.
Revelation 11:3-12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. [SUP]6 [/SUP]These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Moses and Elijah are the two prophets, they are the two witnesses that will prophesy for 1,260 days in sackcloth.
Yes they will come back. They will come back in the time of Jacob's trouble. (Rev. 11:3-12).
The great and dreadful day of the Lord was not the first advent. The great and dreadful day of the Lord is Christ's Second Advent. When He will come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels (Mark 8:38). Where He will judge the Nations in the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3:11-14). Also consider the battle of Armageddon at Christ's Second Coming (Rev. 19:11-21).
And I understand Starfield that John the Baptist was the candidate that was to fulfil the role of Elijah. See Matthew 11:13-14, and Matthew 17:10-13.
Therefore the great Day of the Lord has not happened yet. But it will happen at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble, which is in the future.
Starfield you need to take into consideration that Elijah is still going to come back. He will come back during Daniel's 70th week to prepare the Jews to receive Jesus Christ their Messiah and His physcial, literal, Messianic Kingdom. Keep in mind, that the Day of the LORD is a reference to the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is future.
Amen.
Now remember Starfield that at Christ's First Advent, the Jews rejected Him and His Kingdom. Therefore the prophecy in Malacahi 4:5-6 still awaits its complete fulfillment. You see Starfield, Jesus did not set up His earthly Kingdom at His First Advent. But He came as the sacrificial lamb.
John came in the spirit and power of Elijah. John was a TYPE of Elijah. John's ministry was a TYPE of Elijah's ministry.
John the Baptist fulfilled Malachai 3:1 and also Isaiah 40:3 in Matthew 3:1-6, 11:7-10, and also John 1:23. But John the Baptist was not the person of Elijah. He was a TYPE of Elijah. He came to fulfil the role of Elijah. Elijah the man himself will literally return to the Earth during the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week). And when Elijah does come back and restores all things before the Second Coming and Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ, the prophecy concerning Elijah in Malachi 4:5-6 will be ultimately fulfilled when he prepares Israel to receive their salvation as a Nation at the Second Advent of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore John the Baptist did not fulfil the restoration of all things for the Nation of Israel. How do we know this? Because the Jews rejected Jesus Christ at His First Advent. The Jews rejected their Messiah and His Kingdom. Therefore, the Kingdom was put off for a later time. And the Gospel was then taken to the Gentile Nations shortly after.
It will be Elijah that will restore all things and he will accomplish this before the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Hello there Isdaniel. Yes it is.
1,260 days divided by 360 = 3.5 years. And 3.5 years is obviously equivalent to 42 months.
I have been showing from the Scriptures the clear teaching of the Pre-Trib. Rapture for a good while now Elin.
In the Church Age today, every born again Christian has eternal security. Every Chrisitan is a member of the Body of Christ and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13 and 4:30).
In the time of Jacob's trouble, there is only one group of sealed servants mentioned and that is the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of the Children of Israel (Rev. 7:3-8). There is no other group of sealed saints and servants in the book of Revelation.
Therefore the body of Christ is already in Heaven before the time of Jacob's trouble even starts. There is a multitude of redeemed saints in Heaven from every kindred, tongue, people and nation (See Revelation 5:8-12). In fact, the four and twenty elders are already crowned with crowns of gold and clothed with white raiment in Revelation 4:4. Which means by Revelation 4:4, the Judgment Seat of Christ has already taken place and is completed. And keep in mind also Elin that this is almost 2 chapters before the antichrist is unleashed by the opening of the first seal in Revelation 6:1-2.
So again, this clearly shows Elin that there are already redeemed saints in Heaven before the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) even begins.
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No, it is past.
That's pure conjecture.
Fairy tale.
Are you serious? In spite of the clear passages I quoted concerning how John the Baptist was the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5-6 prophecy, you're still saying it awaits complete fulfillment?
But He did not intend on establishing an earthly civil kingdom at His first coming. He said this: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence (John 18:36). His spiritual kingdom already exists and He will give it to God the Father when He returns.
Fairy tale.
Dispensational delusion.
You are in deep error, ChosenbyHim. You really need to bid farewell to the "gap theory".
Nope. It is future. And I already showed you from the Scripture that it is future. The antichrist did not show up in the first century. The two witnesses did not show up in the first century. The seven seal, trumpet, and vial judgments did not show up in the first century. So for you to continue in this error Starfield just shows how much you have been deceived by the satanic and heretical Ammillennial teaching.
Fairy tale.
No, it is not a fairy tale. It is Bible Doctrine. Start rightly diving the word of truth.
Stop disobeying 2 Timothy 2:15.
Also, What's with the cartoon???
Are you serious? In spite of the clear passages I quoted concerning how John the Baptist was the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5-6 prophecy, you're still saying it awaits complete fulfillment?
Of course I am serious. John the Baptist did not restore all things, but Elijah will during Daniel's 70th week.
His Kingdom will be on this Earth after the Second Advent. His Kingdom will be a literal, physical, Messianic, Davidic Kingdom where He will rule and reign over the kingdoms of this world:
Revelation 11:15-19
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
From reading the passage of Scripture above, one can see that during the 1,000 Year Millennial Reign of our Lord Jesus Christ, Christ will reign over the kingdoms of this earth. I am looking forward to that glorious time.
Wrong again Starfield. No fairy tale. What I showed is Bible Doctrine. And until you start obeying 2 Timothy 2:15 and become Dispensational, you will not be able to understand Bible Doctrine. You will only continue in your grave error.
Elijah will come before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD (Second Coming). See Malachi 4:5.
Not the First Coming Starfield, but the Second Coming. If you cannot understand that simple truth, well then you lack discernment.
Starfield, the ones who are in error here are you and any other Christian who has been deceived into believing the satanic lie of amillennialism.
Start rightly dividing the word of truth. Stop being sloppy with your study and approach to the Scriptures.
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Their not going to listen Elin! Jacob's Trouble is as they say, in Daniel's 70th wk;
at the great and terrible Day of the Lord;
which was the making obsolete the Old Way in Adam;
between 30ad to 70ad.
THIS WAS THE TERRIBLE DAY! THIS WAS JACOB"S TROUBLE!
They take Jesus out of the equation and put themselves in His place.
The Ancient Prophets spoke to Israel about Israel!
What was Jacob's Trouble?
The unfaithful of That last Generation of Old Covenant Israel,
having to deal with the wrath of God and His Lamb,
by rejecting both of them and because of their unbelief.
What was the Great and terrible Day of the Lord?
The end of the Old Way in Adam, the only way the faithful of Israel ever knew; from Adam to Adam!
The prophetic time table of Christ Jesus from 4bc to 70ad.
Daniel's 70th wk had to be fulfilled with in this same time table of prophecy.
This terrible Day was the ache in the heart of the Ancient Prophets.
These prophecies center around Jesus as their Messiah;
not the foolish dispensationalism theory's of the 21st century.
Your right Elin they cannot prove their theory's,
in connection to the Old Testament Prophecies;
in connection to human history.
many blessings
Stop with the lambasting, both sides! Some take the preterist position, some the futurist. There is warrant for both sides. We can all hold strongly to our positions but aren't we supposed to be known for our love! They'll know we are Christians by our love.
If you have to ridicule the other side then you really don't understand the issues. There are scholars on both sides of these issues. But they respect each other because much study has gone into both sides. If you don't understand that then you don't deserve to argue on either side of the issue.
If you have to ridicule the other side then you really don't understand the issues. There are scholars on both sides of these issues. But they respect each other because much study has gone into both sides. If you don't understand that then you don't deserve to argue on either side of the issue.
Paul had received by revelation a measure of grace according to God's purpose that he was to administer, dispense, oversee and manage in terms of its affairs, its doctrine and the building up of believers as a habitation of God through the Spirit.
This was to be done by faith and all under the stewardship of this grace that was given.
This was never offered to Israel nor was it a part of the commonwealth of Israel.
It was solely offered to the church as part of the manifold grace and wisdom of God according to God's purpose to reveal the mystery of Christ and the church.
It excluded Israel as a people and nation.....BradC
none of your Dispensationalist comrades say anything about that ludicrous (yet oddly consistent) heresy.
i wonder why....Israel excluded from the Church. never promised to Israel.
heresy. damnable heresy.