Catholics are not idolators or pagans- if they are so then so also was Moses!

[Xtian7]

I've just joined this site and have seen posts that reflect division and hatred as well as judging of Catholics. We are human and sinners just like everybody. We've made our mistakes, paid for them, still are paying and still may have to. Can any other church or denomination say they are perfect? Doesn't every church have it's own internal rules and regulations that may have not originated perfectly from the Bible but was done in faith? Just as the Church seemingly transgressed during the Reformation (over indulgences) and is impure in God's eyes therefor, aren't all other churches similarly impure in His Holy Eyes?

It upsets me every time I encounter the old argument about statues in Churches and the Second Commandment. I know to the depths of my soul that I worship God Himself and only use the images or statues as aids for my prayer and meditation. So I have a question- if I am a pagan because of the existence of such statues, by the same token I believe that Moses and the Israelites who were the first to receive the Ten Commandments were pagans too- they were worshipping the two kneeling angels atop the Ark of the Covenant! Prove to me that they weren't doing so! They knelt many times before it and venerated the Ark itself-so they must have!

Non Catholics that hound their Catholic CHRISTIAN (Yes we are Christian- read up on the 'Apostle's Creed'- that is what we believe and recite every Sunday in Mass) are sometimes no different to us that legalistic Muslims who say we are pagan (yet bow towards a black cube idol in Mecca which they worship).

Very upset and hurt about such divisions among believers of the King of Kings.

A sinner like all but a believer too!

Xtian7

 

[Ecclesiastik]

I've just joined this site and have seen posts that reflect division and hatred as well as judging of Catholics. We are human and sinners just like everybody. We've made our mistakes, paid for them, still are paying and still may have to. Can any other church or denomination say they are perfect? Doesn't every church have it's own internal rules and regulations that may have not originated perfectly from the Bible but was done in faith? Just as the Church seemingly transgressed during the Reformation (over indulgences) and is impure in God's eyes therefor, aren't all other churches similarly impure in His Holy Eyes?

It upsets me every time I encounter the old argument about statues in Churches and the Second Commandment. I know to the depths of my soul that I worship God Himself and only use the images or statues as aids for my prayer and meditation. So I have a question- if I am a pagan because of the existence of such statues, by the same token I believe that Moses and the Israelites who were the first to receive the Ten Commandments were pagans too- they were worshipping the two kneeling angels atop the Ark of the Covenant! Prove to me that they weren't doing so! They knelt many times before it and venerated the Ark itself-so they must have!

Non Catholics that hound their Catholic CHRISTIAN (Yes we are Christian- read up on the 'Apostle's Creed'- that is what we believe and recite every Sunday in Mass) are sometimes no different to us that legalistic Muslims who say we are pagan (yet bow towards a black cube idol in Mecca which they worship).

Very upset and hurt about such divisions among believers of the King of Kings.

A sinner like all but a believer too!

Xtian7

I'm sorry that you are upset. I once thought that Roman Catholicism was just another denomination until I got stationed in Italy. I began to see the depths of the Romanist religion and what I saw shocked me and turned me against it forever.

I realize that no denomination is perfect. However there are some divisions of Christianity that would like everyone to think they are benign but they are not...they are dangerous and they are heretical. I don't say these things lightly or off the cuff from rote memory. I say them as someone who took the time, did the research, and was troubled by the results.

I love Catholics but I will never love the Roman Catholic religion as it is today. I also beg you to realize that Jesus Christ is where our ultimate allegiance should lay, not in a physical place on Earth.

 

[Karraster]

Hi Extian7 and welcome to CC. Agreed, there is a lot of derision on this site. Even among those who lean a certain way they do not lean far enough, or too much left or to the right, to suit the tastes of some inclined in the same direction, but get pleasure by bringing discord, and so they do. Hateful words, name calling, saying things deliberately to sting, is a bigger issue, and one consolation, you can easily see who does not have any love in their hearts. If you stick around the ignore button will be your friend.

I urge you to consider the fact that God commanded the ark. You will find purpose in that when studied. So often we read words on a page without trying to attempt to place ourselves there. Worship of God is a command, and worship is demonstrated both the right and the wrong way to do it that pleases or displeased our Father. All through the Bible you see reward and rebuke, sometimes destruction for worshiping the wrong way.

I hope that you, like me, will research away from here, anything that speaks to your heart. If we can do that then this site has been a tool to grow closer to the Lord. ~K

 

[Isdaniel]

I've just joined this site and have seen posts that reflect division and hatred as well as judging of Catholics. We are human and sinners just like everybody. We've made our mistakes, paid for them, still are paying and still may have to. Can any other church or denomination say they are perfect? Doesn't every church have it's own internal rules and regulations that may have not originated perfectly from the Bible but was done in faith? Just as the Church seemingly transgressed during the Reformation (over indulgences) and is impure in God's eyes therefor, aren't all other churches similarly impure in His Holy Eyes?

It upsets me every time I encounter the old argument about statues in Churches and the Second Commandment. I know to the depths of my soul that I worship God Himself and only use the images or statues as aids for my prayer and meditation. So I have a question- if I am a pagan because of the existence of such statues, by the same token I believe that Moses and the Israelites who were the first to receive the Ten Commandments were pagans too- they were worshipping the two kneeling angels atop the Ark of the Covenant! Prove to me that they weren't doing so! They knelt many times before it and venerated the Ark itself-so they must have!

Non Catholics that hound their Catholic CHRISTIAN (Yes we are Christian- read up on the 'Apostle's Creed'- that is what we believe and recite every Sunday in Mass) are sometimes no different to us that legalistic Muslims who say we are pagan (yet bow towards a black cube idol in Mecca which they worship).

Very upset and hurt about such divisions among believers of the King of Kings.

A sinner like all but a believer too!

Xtian7

Could you explain this please thank you on the issue if the cerebims in the temple ?



[h=3]Deuteronomy 4:12-20[/h]King James Version (KJV)

12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fishthat is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
20 But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

 

[Isdaniel]

I've just joined this site and have seen posts that reflect division and hatred as well as judging of Catholics. We are human and sinners just like everybody. We've made our mistakes, paid for them, still are paying and still may have to. Can any other church or denomination say they are perfect? Doesn't every church have it's own internal rules and regulations that may have not originated perfectly from the Bible but was done in faith? Just as the Church seemingly transgressed during the Reformation (over indulgences) and is impure in God's eyes therefor, aren't all other churches similarly impure in His Holy Eyes?

It upsets me every time I encounter the old argument about statues in Churches and the Second Commandment. I know to the depths of my soul that I worship God Himself and only use the images or statues as aids for my prayer and meditation. So I have a question- if I am a pagan because of the existence of such statues, by the same token I believe that Moses and the Israelites who were the first to receive the Ten Commandments were pagans too- they were worshipping the two kneeling angels atop the Ark of the Covenant! Prove to me that they weren't doing so! They knelt many times before it and venerated the Ark itself-so they must have!

Non Catholics that hound their Catholic CHRISTIAN (Yes we are Christian- read up on the 'Apostle's Creed'- that is what we believe and recite every Sunday in Mass) are sometimes no different to us that legalistic Muslims who say we are pagan (yet bow towards a black cube idol in Mecca which they worship).

Very upset and hurt about such divisions among believers of the King of Kings.

A sinner like all but a believer too!

Xtian7

What is the difference between a Hindu, Chinese and Catholic Statue that is god ?

 

[PennEd]

Welcome Extian. Ex- Catholic here who went to Catholic school and who's large family remains mostly Catholic. So I know both sides of the argument. The more I research Catholicism, it's roots, and worldwide damage it has done, the more Satanically evil I know it to be. This is a tough pill for Catholics to swallow, but if you are truly interested in knowing the truth rather than just defending an organization, than I know you would come to the same conclusion. I wasn't looking at 1st, when i bacame a Christian, to denigrate Catholicism, I thought as you do it was just another denomination that didn't suit me, but it is so crystal clear now I know if catholics honestly saw the evidence for how this is a demonically controlled religion they would accept Jesus ALONE! ALONE!! ALONE!!! and leave it.

 

[Isdaniel]

I've just joined this site and have seen posts that reflect division and hatred as well as judging of Catholics. We are human and sinners just like everybody. We've made our mistakes, paid for them, still are paying and still may have to. Can any other church or denomination say they are perfect? Doesn't every church have it's own internal rules and regulations that may have not originated perfectly from the Bible but was done in faith? Just as the Church seemingly transgressed during the Reformation (over indulgences) and is impure in God's eyes therefor, aren't all other churches similarly impure in His Holy Eyes?

It upsets me every time I encounter the old argument about statues in Churches and the Second Commandment. I know to the depths of my soul that I worship God Himself and only use the images or statues as aids for my prayer and meditation. So I have a question- if I am a pagan because of the existence of such statues, by the same token I believe that Moses and the Israelites who were the first to receive the Ten Commandments were pagans too- they were worshipping the two kneeling angels atop the Ark of the Covenant! Prove to me that they weren't doing so! They knelt many times before it and venerated the Ark itself-so they must have!

Non Catholics that hound their Catholic CHRISTIAN (Yes we are Christian- read up on the 'Apostle's Creed'- that is what we believe and recite every Sunday in Mass) are sometimes no different to us that legalistic Muslims who say we are pagan (yet bow towards a black cube idol in Mecca which they worship).

Very upset and hurt about such divisions among believers of the King of Kings.

A sinner like all but a believer too!

Xtian7

Did Moses and they use statue as aid in prayer to draw closer to God or focus on Him more of my Catholics friends say ?

 

[Ecclesiastik]

What is the difference between a Hindu, Chinese and Catholic Statue that is god ?

Terminology. The Hindu and Chinese say: "This is a god." The Roman Catholic says "This is a saint" or much closer to the former "The Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, and our Co-redemptrix". Either way, the statues and what they represent are treated very similarly in all of the religions listed above.

The way I have explained it in the past is even if Roman Catholicism does not directly call the saints or Mary "God", that does not mean they are not idolizing them. I've seldom heard people term money, celebrities, or power as God but there are still multitudes who idolize all of the above.

 

[notuptome]

I hear what you are saying but I must disagree with you. Catholics pray to Mary and they pray repetitious prayers. Catholics by their teachings believe that the church saves and that grace is received by the sacraments. I can agree that the Catholics are like the modern Jews in that they both are apostate.

Your reference to Moses is curious. I can say that Moses had a great number of pagan aspects in his history and the Jews coming out of Egypt never could shed most of the pagan traditions they picked up while in Egypt. They did make a molten image like they saw in Egypt. They were judged by God for what they did as well.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Xtian7]

The difference is that the Catholic statue is not God and you would know that were you a Catholic!

 

[Xtian7]

Notuptome,

Yes Catholics 'pray' to Mary and the saints. But any knowledgable Catholic will tell you worship is only due to God. I find your judging of both Jews and Catholics not in line with the Spirit of God- but that's my opinion. His Opinion is the one that matters!

 

[Xtian7]

Ecclesiastik,

By the same argument that you say that 'does not mean they are not idolizing them', I say the Jews were idolizing the kneeling Seraphim atop the Ark of the Covenant if not the Ark of the Covenant itself. It seems you either don't get that point I was making or don't want to.

 

[Simiel]

Who cares what church you go to and what other say about you. What do God say about you.. And love everyone even they don't agree with your denomination .. We are all sons, so live like it... No one should be hurt by someone else because we love. Love doesn't seek it's own.. Only way some can hurt you is if you expect something out of a person... Lets all I've guys and give encouragement to each other

 

[Xtian7]

Did Moses and they use statue as aid in prayer to draw closer to God or focus on Him more of my Catholics friends say ?

Tell me why did they make a graven image of angels? And many a time the Israelites bowed down before the Ark itself (even if they were instructed to make it by God). What were they doing in those moments? Obviously it was more than an aid in prayer, in fact a holy object, but clearly not God Himself, so why did they 'idolise' the Ark of the
Covenant by their actions?

 

[CRC]

Not all images are idols. God himself told the Israelites to make two golden cherubs for the ark of the covenant and to embroider representations of such spirit creatures on the inner covering of ten tent cloths for the tabernacle and on the curtain separating the Holy from the Most Holy. (Exodus 25:1, 18; 26:1, 31-33) Only officiating priests saw these representations that served primarily as a picture of the heavenly cherubs. (Compare Hebrews 9:24, 25.) It is evident that the tabernacle representations of cherubs were not to be venerated, since righteous angels themselves would not accept worship.—Colossians 2:18; Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9.

 

[Xtian7]

Welcome Extian. Ex- Catholic here who went to Catholic school and who's large family remains mostly Catholic. So I know both sides of the argument. The more I research Catholicism, it's roots, and worldwide damage it has done, the more Satanically evil I know it to be. This is a tough pill for Catholics to swallow, but if you are truly interested in knowing the truth rather than just defending an organization, than I know you would come to the same conclusion. I wasn't looking at 1st, when i bacame a Christian, to denigrate Catholicism, I thought as you do it was just another denomination that didn't suit me, but it is so crystal clear now I know if catholics honestly saw the evidence for how this is a demonically controlled religion they would accept Jesus ALONE! ALONE!! ALONE!!! and leave it.

PennEd,

I have some idea of the evil that Catholics have done. I will not deny that. Every Catholic, like every Christian or indeed every human, is tempted by Satan, and more so those in power. Even Jesus was tempted by Satan. And only He could stand strong because He is God and the Holy Spirit was strong in Him. I will even go further and say that many prophecies by visionaries (I'm mainly referring to Lucia of Fatima though I know other sources too) say that in the End Times, the Catholic Church will have deception within it. But that is why every Catholic should pray for strength and fight for the 'Bride of Christ/or the Body of Christ (of which Jesus is the Head)', and NOT quit it in its hour of trial! I pray for all Mankind, so should I not pray for the biggest or oldest Church too or should I consider them a write off? What would Jesus do?

 

[Xtian7]

Could you explain this please thank you on the issue if the cerebims in the temple ?



Deuteronomy 4:12-20

King James Version (KJV)

12 And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
14 And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fishthat is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
20 But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

I wish to reply but your point is unfortunately not clear enough for me to understand. Furthermore, if I do understand it right, I fail to see its relevance, because I do not worship the saints or their statues, though I do pray to them to intercede for me to God. Even the Israelites used to speak to Moses to intercede on their behalf- why didn't they bypass Moses and speak to God directly?

 

[Xtian7]

I'm sorry that you are upset. I once thought that Roman Catholicism was just another denomination until I got stationed in Italy. I began to see the depths of the Romanist religion and what I saw shocked me and turned me against it forever.

I realize that no denomination is perfect. However there are some divisions of Christianity that would like everyone to think they are benign but they are not...they are dangerous and they are heretical. I don't say these things lightly or off the cuff from rote memory. I say them as someone who took the time, did the research, and was troubled by the results.

I love Catholics but I will never love the Roman Catholic religion as it is today. I also beg you to realize that Jesus Christ is where our ultimate allegiance should lay, not in a physical place on Earth.

Thank you. Agreed no denomination is perfect. But RC is vilified the most. I'm 100% sure there is evil within it but I ask you to pray for the good people, clergy and laity, to withstand temptations of the devil and be true to Christ. The Head of the Roman Catholic Church is indeed Christ and wisdom does guide me to swear my allegiance to Him Only. Let Him be the Judge!

 

[mystdancer50]

The thing about praying to anyone except Christ is that they don't hear you. When someone passes away, they are not concerned with the things of this world and they do not listen for prayers and then go before God for you. Why? Because only Christ is the mediator for us. No other person can do that. So, only Christ, God and Holy Spirit can hear and respond to our prayers. Mary doesn't hear you. She is kneeling before the throne of Christ worshipping Him, not harkening to the prayers of mortals below.

The same is true with the saints. Peter, Paul and all the rest are communing with Christ, not playing messenger. Angels can be moved to action by the word of Christ, not by the command of saints. Does this make sense?

There is one God. There is one Lord. There is one Savior. Praying/worshiping anyone else is idolatry.

[SUP]1-2 [/SUP]God spoke all these words:I am God, your God,
who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of a life of slavery.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]No other gods, only me.
[SUP]4-6 [/SUP]No carved gods of any size, shape, or form of anything whatever, whether of things that fly or walk or swim. Don’t bow down to them and don’t serve them because I am God, your God, and I’m a most jealous God, punishing the children for any sins their parents pass on to them to the third, and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me. But I’m unswervingly loyal to the thousands who love me and keep my commandments.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]No using the name of God, your God, in curses or silly banter; God won’t put up with the irreverent use of his name.

Exodus 20, The Message

 

[Xtian7]

Hi Extian7 and welcome to CC. Agreed, there is a lot of derision on this site. Even among those who lean a certain way they do not lean far enough, or too much left or to the right, to suit the tastes of some inclined in the same direction, but get pleasure by bringing discord, and so they do. Hateful words, name calling, saying things deliberately to sting, is a bigger issue, and one consolation, you can easily see who does not have any love in their hearts. If you stick around the ignore button will be your friend.

I urge you to consider the fact that God commanded the ark. You will find purpose in that when studied. So often we read words on a page without trying to attempt to place ourselves there. Worship of God is a command, and worship is demonstrated both the right and the wrong way to do it that pleases or displeased our Father. All through the Bible you see reward and rebuke, sometimes destruction for worshiping the wrong way.

I hope that you, like me, will research away from here, anything that speaks to your heart. If we can do that then this site has been a tool to grow closer to the Lord. ~K

Karraster,

I received much comfort from some of your words. Thank you. God did command the creation of the Ark but not the bowing down and worship thereof as did some Israelites. Many others did not do so but venerated it as a sacred object along with Moses, without worshipping them. Much as, I might add, proper Catholics do with regard to saints and sacred objects- they are definitely not idols to us.