Attack of the Judaizers

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JDecree

Guest
This will be my only(and likely unfruitful) post in here.

Sunday is not the new Sabbath. People get confused and angry when you say that. Going to church for an hour in the morning is nothing like a biblical old covenant Sabbath. If we treat it as though it is a new Sabbath, people can pull out the whole "Roman Catholic change of times and laws!!!" one liner and think you therefore are deceived and lost and blah blah blah.

We worship on Sunday because the NT saints did so. I believe it was as a commemoration of the LORD's resurrection on the first day of the week. Yes, the saints were recorded as teaching in the SYNAGOGUES on the Sabbath. Why? To reach the jewish people at a place where they gather.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

Carry on(but do so with love and humility pls) :)
 
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danschance

Guest
The Sabbath Was Changed to Sunday!
But by who?

“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

Exodus 31:13, "Speak also to the children of Israyl, saying; Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for they are a *sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh
Who sanctifies you, and makes you holy."

*sign=Word #226, Hebrew Dictionary,Strong's Exhaustive Concordance,
meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons

Ezekiyl 20:12, "Moreover, I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh Who sanctifies them."

“Protestants...accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change...But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that...In observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 15, 1950.

“Sunday is founded, not of scripture, but on tradition, and is distinctly a Catholic institution. As there is no scripture for the transfer of the day of rest from the last to the first day of the week, Protestants ought to keep their Sabbath on Saturday and thus leave Catholics in full possession of Sunday.” Catholic Record, September 17, 1893.

“It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.” Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Magazine, USA (1975), Chicago, Illinois, “Under the blessing of the Pope Pius XI”

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
"Times" is word # 2166 - Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar - 1) a set time, time, season

Daniyl 8:12, "And a host was given him against the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and succeeded."
God changed the sabbath. Read the article and see....if you dare.
 
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Elin said:
WomanLovesTX said:
If you understand this, then you would know how the entire Bible is still relevant in our lives today and you would understand what Jesus came and taught us. But instead, you are clinging to two scriptures that I don't believe anyone here is disputing because they are just quotes from the Old Testament. You have much made up doctrine that cannot be proven so you just keep saying the same thing over and over, as though that will make it true.
Perhaps you could present the "made-up doctrine" which you allege, that we may examine it according to the Scriptures.
Isaiah 29: 13 Then Adonai said: "Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their 'fear of me' is just a mitzvah of human origin 14 therefore, I will have to keep shocking these people with astounding and amazing things, until the 'wisdom' of their 'wise ones' vanishes, and the 'discernment' of their 'discerning ones' is hidden away."

Etc., etc. etc.
You think these are the "made-up doctrine that cannot be proven"?

Think again.
 
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you are the one going around and around.

for probably the 10th time today:

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

SO I HAVE A FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU ON THIS MATTER, PLEASE:

which one of these

(You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet)


can I break and still be keeping

(You must love your neighbor as yourself)


???????????????????????????????????/

all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws
You promise that is your final question?

According to Jesus, the same ones you can break when you "love your neighbor as yourself." (Mt 22:39)
 
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Yes, you keep quoting it out of context as if these are the only words Jesus ever spoke.
Perhaps you could show how Mt 22:37-39 does not cover all the Ten commandments as Jesus stated
in Mt 22:40.
 
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danschance

Guest
i GREW UP IN THE "CHANGED TO SUNDAY LIE"

CONSTANTINE ORDAINED SUNDAY in honor or sol invictus mithra, which he minted on his coins until he died, KILLED ALL THE REAL FOLLOWERS OF MESSIAH, and now the world wonders after the beast.

At best you are making your own tradition just as the pharisee did, at worst you are standing on your own authority or the authority of the RCC in this change, nowhere is there a single verse Commanding to keep Sunday.
Telling a law does not make it true. The early church fathers wrote about Sunday observance before Constantine.
Constantine's edict of Milan was in 313. Here is what the early church fathers claimed before that time.
The Didache"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).
"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).

Tertullian
"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).

The Didascalia
"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).

Origen
"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).

Victorinus
"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).

Eusebius of Caesarea
"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).
 
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Elin said:
Hizikyah said:
Yahshua is NOT a liar, the priestly Laws are still in effect, carried out by Yahshua Himself, sacrificial Law has had its true purpose completed, but if it were done away how would you and I being born 2000 years later have recieved this Sacrifice? If it were done away there would no longer be a Law on the books to make blood be able to cleanse sin.
This reveals an amazing misunderstanding of the NT.
Well then, perhaps if you study real hard and submit to God, He will help you to understand.
Incoherent.

What happened to "over and out"?
 
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You are absolutely sure the Levitical Priesthood is over and done?
As absolutely sure as the word of God, which reveals the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days

(Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers, in Heb 7:11-12.
 
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ONE VERSE BEFORE THAT QUOTE:

Hebrews 4:7 Again, He designates a certain day, saying in David: ''Today,'' after so long a time, as it has been said: Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts."

"a certain day"

Lets og a few verse back for context:

Hebrews 4:3-6, "For He spoke in a certain place of the Seventh Day, in this way: And Yahweh rested the Seventh Day from all His works. And in this place again: If they will enter into My rest. Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience."

I ask the same:

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Exodus 20:8, "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy."

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."
I agree with all, nevertheless, I think the spiritual meaning of all is being missed. I was hoping to post something so there could be an agreement on for starters, but you seem to be the only one to respond. I ask you and all others on this thread. Does God really approve of the conversations when there is no impasse? I have seen the same argument over and over for months. Where is the end to division, and the beginning of unity?

Ephesians 4:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

I think this will show all on this thread why I don't contribute hardly at all. Think about why this thread was started.

Romans 16:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
 
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So this is the second time you have cut my question out of your quote and "replied", you really do not want to answer that question?

Spirit and truth, Ms Elin.

Will you answer my question?
Your question is answered here.
 
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phil112

Guest
i GREW UP IN THE "CHANGED TO SUNDAY LIE".....................nowhere is there a single verse Commanding to keep Sunday.
No, not commanding, only that we rest one day a week as God did.

You explain this passage away, since you are so enamored with the law:

Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
 

WomanLovesTX

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Jan 1, 2010
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Isaiah 29: 13 Then Adonai said: "Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their 'fear of me' is just a mitzvah of human origin 14 therefore, I will have to keep shocking these people with astounding and amazing things, until the 'wisdom' of their 'wise ones' vanishes, and the 'discernment' of their 'discerning ones' is hidden away."

Mainstream Christian insists "Jesus" preached the Gospel - the Good News about the Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection - which is all Christians tend to focus on. But Scripture, read in context, reveals He did NOT preach those things at all; rather, He preached the Kingdom of YHWH (Yahweh)!

Luke 4: 43 "But he (Yeshua/Jesus) said, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent."
Luke 8: 1.
Acts 28: 23
Acts 24: 14.

So, while His death, burial, and resurrection are an important part of the Good News, it's not the whole story! God isn't just in the business of "saving" people. As Creator and law giver, He is in the business of teaching us how to be good subjects in His Kingdom to come! If "Jesus abolished Torah at the cross" then why was EVERY believer completely Torah observant for one hundred years after Yeshua's death, including the Apostle Paul who was "caught" being Torah observant 29 years after Yeshua's death (Acts 21:23-24)! Was Paul a hypocrite, saying one thing and doing another; or were his teachings, perhaps, misunderstood?

YHWH said HE would send a prophet who was to do everything He ordered him to do:

Deuteronomy 18: 15 "ADONAI will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested ADONAI your God, 'Don't let me hear the voice of ADONAI my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!' 17 On that occasion ADONAI said to me, 'They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him.

Yeshua Himself said He came to do HIS FATHER's will; not His own!

John 6: 35. Y'shua said to them, I am the Bread of Life. Whoever comes to me will not hunger. And whoever believes in me will not ever thirst. 36. But I have said to you that you have seen me, and you do not believe. 37. All who my Father has given to me will come, and whoever comes not to me I will cast outside! 38. For I came down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of Him who sent me. 39. And this is His will, that of Him who sent me, that all that He has given to me I do not lose even one. 40. For this is the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in Him, will have life that is eternal. And I will raise him up on the last day. (Aramaic English New Testament)

Yeshua came to proclaim the Kingdom of YHWH and to do everything His Father commanded. He tore down the fences of man's legalism. Neither He nor His Apostles ever advocated against Torah!

John 12: 44. But Y'shua cried out and said, He who believes in me, it is not in me he does believe, but in Him who sent me. 45. And he who sees me sees Him who sent me! 46. I have come as the light into this world that all who believe in me might not remain in the darkness! 47. And he who hears my words, yet does not keep them, I do not judge him, for I have not come to judge the world but to give life to the world. 48. He who rejects me and does not receive my words, there is something that judges him. The word that I have spoken, it will judge him on the last day. 49. For I have not spoken from my soul, but the Father who sent me. He gave a Commandment to me what I should say and what I should speak. 50. And I know that His commands are eternal life. Therefore, these things that I speak just as my Father told me, thus I speak. (Aramaic English New Testament)

Yeshua was sent by the Father NOT to do His own will, but the Father's! So many seem to think He came to replace the Father and abolish Torah....Yet He came to restore man's relationship with YHWH and remind us to totally rely on YHWH for everything.

Christian claims that, in order to "be saved" one has to do nothing besides "believe in Jesus." While this is true to a certain extent because Yeshua was the Final SIN Sacrifice, there is more to "having a personal relationship with God" - a whole new world, as a matter of fact! Yeshua (YHWH-Come-in-the-Flesh) even said He did not come to replace His Father or to abolish His Father's Divine Instructions (Torah - without which mankind would have no blueprint for moral, holy living (1 John 3:4)!).

And think about this: If you abolish Torah, you have to abolish the Ten Commandments right along with it. You can't pick and choose what parts of Torah are still valid - especially since YHWH gave us several "forever" commands above and beyond "the Ten Commandments"! But yet, Christianity - borne out of Catholicism and NOT the original teachings of Messiah - insists that "Jesus came to do away with the law" and they've decided the "forever" commands don't pertain to them. Somehow, they cannot seem to understand that Yeshua came to proclaim the Kingdom of YHWH and then to martyr Himself so that we could have everlasting life with YHWH (see also John 17:1-3).

1 John 2:3-6: The way we can be sure we know Him is if we are obeying His commands. Anyone who says, "I know Him," but isn't obeying His commands is a liar - the truth is not in him. But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with Him. A person who claims to be continuing in union with Him ought to conduct his life the way He did.

So, how did Yeshua conduct His life? By obeying and carrying out His Father's Divine Instructions/Commands! Yeshua was completely Torah observant, as were all of His apostles and disciples throughout the entire First Century....so what makes Christians think THEY don't have to be? How did Yeshua's death on the stake negate His Father's Divine Instructions? How did YHWH's Divine Instructions get to be a "curse"? That doesn't even make sense!

That, in itself, reveals there must be more to God and the Bible than just "believing in Jesus" and it's way past time for mankind to realize this. We are in the end times as outlined in the Books of Daniel and Revelation, and it won't be much longer before Yeshua's return. Those who have chosen to ignore God's Torah are NOT worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and will be very surprised to discover they were "left behind" on that fateful day because they were guilty of being "lukewarm." Many of our Christian brethren have already realized this and opted to leave the "milk" of the church in order to pursue a true relationship with their Creator because they've finally understood that Yeshua said He did NOT come to abolish or negate His Father's Commands:

Matthew 5: 17 Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah - not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot (words/commands) and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Has everything happened that must happen? Have heaven and Earth passed away yet? Since when does the word "complete" (or "fulfill) mean "abolished"? Why would God abolish His own original divine teachings which He said were to last forever? Did Jesus come to make a liar out of YHWH, God the Father?

Here's the thing: The "Old Testament" is God's Word; The "New Testament" is about God's Word. One can be "saved" by believing in the Messiah (the "arm of YHWH"), but one cannot possibly understand God until one is firmly rooted in Torah.

Isaiah 53: 1 Who believes our report? To whom is the arm of ADONAI revealed?

Please read the following very carefully: Yeshua (His given Hebrew Name which means, "Yahweh is Salvation" while "Jesus" means nothing in particular), was a Torah observant Jew who kept all the Biblical Feasts and the seventh day Sabbath. Contrary to popular belief, He was not born on December 25th; He was born on the first day of Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) which always falls in the September/October time frame on our Gregorian calendars. His exact date of death according to the Bible was Nisan 14 - Passover - and He rose three days later on Saturday evening, not on a Sunday. God gave us seven Biblical Feasts which He said believers were to keep forever, and Yeshua has so far only fulfilled the first four....and yet Christians as a whole have chosen to ignore them and instead, celebrate their man-made "holy days" of Christmas and Easter - both of which are steeped in paganism.

When God made His New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:32), He never mentioned that it was to somehow abolish His Divine Instructions (Torah)...And, contrary to popular belief Yeshua, who was Himself Torah observant, never said He came to abolish the Torah; He came to abolish man-made doctrines, the rabbinical ideology which had distorted (and is still distorting) the Word of God!

When Yeshua returns, He will be teaching GOD'S WORD which was revealed through Torah (the first five Books) and once again personally demonstrating how much off the mark man's opinions are - and thus He will be abolishing Christian traditions and the opinions and ideologies of your respective pastors who are just as off the mark as many of the rabbis of old who had added to and/or taken away from the Word and turned YHWH's commands into a burden....

Many protest that this was "just for the Jews," but we would ask you to please think about this: Where did God ever say He was going to treat His adopted children any different from His natural ones? Torah is our only blueprint for moral, holy and godly living! The ONLY thing Yeshua "nailed to the cross" was the requirement to kill an innocent animal to atone for our sins, and that in no way negates the need for Torah! God Himself said that anyone who wants to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is to be Torah observant:

Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"
Please re-read the above in case you missed it: Any Torah-less non-Jew/Hebrew/Israelite who does not yet believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is an "alien"/foreigner. However, if they do wish to accept Him, then they are to do exactly as those who are already belong to Him!

"Living among" means not necessarily physically, but rather, it refers to all those who have accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They MUST be Torah observant, just like the Houses of Israel and Judah were with whom God made His New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32)!
Romans 10: 12. And in this, it discriminates neither Jews nor Gentiles. For there is one, Master YHWH, over them all, who is abundantly generous towards every one that calls on him. 13. For everyone that will call on the name of Master YHWH, will have life.

It is important to understand that YHWH did NOT make His New Covenant with the Gentiles; He made it with those who were obedient to His divine Instructions (Jeremiah 31:32)! Same God, same rules for both the "natural" and the grafted-in" children....
This does not mean that Torah observance will "save" you, because the ONLY thing that gets you into heaven is belief on the shed blood of Christ! But that in no way negates our need to obey God's rules. If you wish to have a REAL relationship with YHWH, then you MUST obey His "forever" commands, because they are our only blueprint to moral, holy living. But once you have the Holy Spirit, you will want to please God - and pleasing Him means obeying His Torah which will keep you from sinning! (Remember - sin is the transgression of the Law/Torah - 1 John 3:4)!) Doesn't that make more sense than making up your own rules about a Savior who never once heard the name of "Jesus" during His entire lifetime on Earth?

Jeremiah 31:32 tells us that Yahweh made His "new covenant" not with the Torah-less Gentiles, but with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah; He did, however, extend His grace and mercy to the Gentiles who, once they become believers in Yeshua, automatically become part of "Israel"!

And God told Israel:
"I give you good instruction: Do not forsake my Torah" (Proverbs 4:2).
And Paul reiterated this when he said: Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31) Paul also wrote in Acts 21 - a full 29 years after the death of Yeshua:

Acts 21: 25. As to those of the Gentiles who have believed, we have written, that they should keep themselves from (an idol’s) sacrifice, and from sexual sin, and from what is strangled, and from blood.” 26. Then Paul took those men, on the following day, and was purified with them; and he entered and went into the temple, explaining to them how to complete the days of the purification, up to the presentation of the offering by each of them.
This event clearly establishes Rav Shaul as a Torah observant Jew
; however, most mainstream Christians twist Paul into being a man pleaser – as though his offering was solely to please Jews, as some sort of political posturing. There is no conflict between atonement made by Yeshua’s blood and the giving of offerings in the Temple. Paul walks in the footsteps of Y’shua, King David, and all the Yisrael of Elohim, when he declares "I rejoice in the Torah of Elohim, in the inner man." (Romans 7:22.) Each and every blood sacrifice and offering made in the Temple points to Mashiyach’s perfect blood. The Temple stood until 70 AD. The followers of Y’shua met daily in the Temple and gave offerings unto YHWH, but they also knew atonement was accomplished through the precious blood of Y’shua....

Paul wrote:
Romans 7: 7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid! Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, "Thou shalt not covet."
Romans 7: 12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good.
Paul also said that YHWH’s law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) - and that which is spiritual is eternal.
2 Corinthians 4: 18 We concentrate not on what is seen but on what is not seen, since things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal.
So, the question once more is: Why would Yeshua’s death have abolished Torah? Those who teach contrary to the Torah, which both Yeshua and Paul upheld, are false preachers and prophets; nothing more, nothing less. Paul wrote:
2 Corinthians 11: 13 The fact is that such men are pseudo-emissaries: they tell lies about their work and masquerade as emissaries of the Messiah. 14 There is nothing surprising in that, for the Adversary himself masquerades as an angel of light; 15 so it’s no great thing if his workers masquerade as servants of righteousness. They will meet the end their deeds deserve.
Micah 6: 8 Human being, you have already been told what is good, what ADONAI demands of you - no more than to act justly, love grace and walk in purity with your God.
Originally Posted by Elin
Perhaps you could present the doctrine to which you are referring that we may examine it according to the Scriptures.
You changed your own quote. Why?
Originally Posted by Elin
Originally Posted by WomanLovesTX
If you understand this, then you would know how the entire Bible is still relevant in our lives today and you would understand what Jesus came and taught us. But instead, you are clinging to two scriptures that I don't believe anyone here is disputing because they are just quotes from the Old Testament. You have much made up doctrine that cannot be proven so you just keep saying the same thing over and over, as though that will make it true.
Perhaps you could present the "made-up doctrine" which you allege, that we may examine it according to the Scriptures.
Originally Posted by Elin. You think these are the "made-up doctrine that cannot be proven"?

Think again.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
WomanLovesTX said:
If you understand this, then you would know how the entire Bible is still relevant in our lives today and you would understand what Jesus came and taught us. But instead, you are clinging to two scriptures that I don't believe anyone here is disputing because they are just quotes from the Old Testament.
You have much made up doctrine that cannot be proven so you just keep saying the same thing over and over, as though that will make it true.
Perhaps you could present the doctrine to which you are referring that we may examine it according to the Scriptures.
Isaiah 29: 13 Then Adonai said: "Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their 'fear of me' is just a mitzvah of human origin 14 therefore, I will have to keep shocking these people with astounding and amazing things, until the 'wisdom' of their 'wise ones' vanishes, and the 'discernment' of their 'discerning ones' is hidden away."

Etc., etc., etc.
You think these are the "made-up doctrine that cannot be proven"?

Think again.
Perhaps you could present the "made-up doctrine" which you allege, that we may examine it according to the Scriptures.
You changed your own quote. Why?
To clarify it.

Are you saying I have changed its meaning, or altered it in any material way?

Your point?

Your culture is showing. . .
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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To clarify it.

Are you saying I have changed its meaning, or altered it in any material way?

Your point?

Your culture is showing. . .
I misunderstood what you were asking. Clarified now. Thanks.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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To Hezikyah, I am not a "lair" I only asked you, "am I right", Please answer,(yes/no) Further more,I would like to know ,Where are you coming from? What "group" do you belong to? Hofco
You repeatedly put claims in my moth as statement with a "?" being them.

I am a member of the body of Messiah, I belong to no earthly institution.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Originally Posted by Hizikyah

you are the one going around and around.

for probably the 10th time today:

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

SO I HAVE A FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU ON THIS MATTER, PLEASE:

which one of these

(You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet)


can I break and still be keeping

(You must love your neighbor as yourself)


???????????????????????????????????/

all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws


You promise that is your final question?

According to Jesus, the same ones you can break when you "love your neighbor as yourself." (Mt 22:39)
Nice way to avoid the question. Have a nice day.
 

Josh321

Senior Member
Sep 3, 2013
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[h=3]1 Timothy 1:5-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;