There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

phil36 · Feb 1, 2014

I think what will help this dialogue is if NWL could clear up something and that is: Do you worship a created being?

NWL · Feb 1, 2014

That is a very illogical answer my friend. Also your comment "[the] passage is found is about Jesus' overall supremacy, then the "firstborn from the dead," is also about this", doesn't explain how Jesus is still the "firstborn form the Dead" if he didn't die, it's merely a guise to cover up an illogical answer. It matters not, answer this one for me instead, the same principle lies behind it.

Could a 'puppy' be called the 'firstborn cat' of a 'litter of kittens'. Please answers yes or no and explain why not in a sentence.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

The same could be said of you....

2 Corinthians 3:1-18 (NASB)
3 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? [SUP]2 [/SUP]You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; [SUP]3 [/SUP]being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, [SUP][a][/SUP]cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of [SUP][b][/SUP]human hearts.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, [SUP]6 [/SUP]who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [SUP][c][/SUP]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, [SUP]8 [/SUP]how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? [SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For if that which fades away was [SUP][d][/SUP]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [SUP][e][/SUP]remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; [SUP]16 [/SUP]but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.[SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God. The three are so linked together in Scripture that we can't really talk about God doing anything without a reference to the other Persons.

I would say that the underlined part above has to do with sanctification -- the Holy Spirit's role in making us holy. Look at the John passages I quoted in a previous post regarding the living water that Jesus gives us. Jesus said that this living water was the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates us and makes us born again. And this happens by believing in Jesus Christ.

In Hebrews 1:3 -- again, the context is talking about Jesus' superiority over the angels. Hebrews 1 declares that the Son is YHWH. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father because Jesus is God's full revelation to humanity. Jesus is YHWH just as the Father is YHWH.

2 Corinthians is talking about sanctification. We are being sanctified and being made more like the Father through our faith in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit, as other Scripture points to. It is the whole triune God in action.

And who makes the call whether or not it was true worship or merely homage? What if the NWT were wrong? They translated it that way because they assumed that Jesus was just a king who was not God Himself. But what if they were in error, and have thus led many readers into error by this rendering?

I know you could say the same about Trinitarian translators. However, it is clear that the early Christians worshiped Jesus as God. The fact that Jesus was worshiped as God was part of the debates at Nicea. One of the arguments against Arius' position was that if Jesus was not YHWH, then it would be wrong for Christians to worship Him. But a statement like that couldn't be made unless Jesus was already being worshiped.

Now you want to use the term "only" as part of your argument because you think that it benefits your point of view, but you discount it when it does not fit your view....

Let's look at the Scriptures you are using here too see what they say:
Matthew 4:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; [SUP]9 [/SUP]and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and [SUP][a][/SUP]worship me.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and [SUP][b][/SUP]serve Him only.’”

Jesus doesn't deny His own deity here, nor does He say that only the Father should be worshiped. What He did say is that only God should be worshiped. We can't assume here that Jesus was only talking about the Father. We can assume that He was referring to YHWH here. This verse doesn't prove anything.

Matthew 6:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

Again, Jesus didn't say here, "only pray to the Father and not Me." If it said that, you would have a case. But it does not. Jesus is simply talking about praying to the Father, which is, of course legitimate. The Father is YHWH. But that doesn't mean that Jesus forbids us from praying to Him or to the Holy Spirit or to the whole triune God. So, this verse proves nothing.

John 4:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Once again, this verse doesn't make the "Father only" claim that you think it does. It is simply talking about worshiping the Father. That doesn't mean that Jesus is saying that He and the Holy Spirit should not be worshiped and glorified along with the Father. Once again, this proves nothing.

Now, the NWT might have translated the worship passages in the Gospels as being obeisance instead of worship....but is it consist of that where Jesus and the Father are both worshiped in heaven as God?

I don't know...maybe it is consistent, and translates it as obeisance there just because Jesus is obviously being worshiped alongside the Father....

Nope...I just checked.
Revelation 5 | Online Bible | New World Translation

Jesus and the Father are both worshiped as God there, even in the NWT....

Let's look at this one again:
Revelation 5:11-14 (NASB)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, [SUP]12 [/SUP]saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

NWT:
[SUP]11[/SUP] And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads* and thousands of thousands,+ [SUP]12[/SUP] and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered+ is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”+ [SUP]13[/SUP] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth+ and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne+ and to the Lamb+ be the blessing and the honor+ and the glory and the might forever and ever.”+ [SUP]14[/SUP] The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

johnluke said:

Yes. I do believe that the three Persons of YHWH can be in 3 different places at the same time.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

Okay -- then yo do not believe that Jesus is eternal. You just believe that Jesus was given eternal life in the same way that we are. But that would mean that Jesus would have needed to have been born again, born of the Spirit. But He didn't need to be because He was sinless.

Even if He were just a mere sinless human being, and was sinless, He wouldn't have needed to receive eternal life because He would have already possessed it. The only reason that we need to be born again is because we are born with a sinful nature -- a tendency towards sin, and we all do end up sinning.

Sorry -- that isn't proof that Jesus was given eternal life.

Let's look at it in context.
John 5:25-29 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. [SUP]26 [/SUP]For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [SUP][f][/SUP]the Son of Man. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, [SUP]29 [/SUP]and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

That's talking about the connection between the Father and the Son, and also it is referring to the resurrection of the dead. It is not saying that Jesus needed to be born again, or that Jesus needed to receive eternal life. Jesus became human in the incarnation.

I see why you are pulling verse 26 out of context and claiming that it means that Jesus was given eternal life...but that is because you are equating being eternal with eternal life, and you are making the assumption that that is the "life" that is being talked about in verse 26. But the thing is, the text doesn't say that's what it's talking about. It just says "life."

Exactly.

Glad to hear

NWL · Feb 1, 2014

GreenNnice said:

I do not believe when Jesus said 'Before Abraham was born, I am.', that he was referring to be YHWH of the OT, my reasons for this is as follows.

That firstly the term "ego eimi" (I am) wasn't the term used for the name of YHWH in the OT, the term for YHWH's name was "ego eimi ho on" which roughly means "I am the existence". No doubt the term "Before Abraham was, I am," is certainly appropriate. The Greek literally says, "Before Abraham comes to be I am," or "Before Abraham came to be, I am." However claiming the "ego eimi" was in regards to YHWH is another thing.

Another point to why I don't believe Jesus was refereeing to YHWH is because of all the other usages of the term 'ego eimi/ I am'. The term "I am" gets used a ton of times in the NT, however for one to wave his magic stick and simply pick and choose when the term means YHWH and when it doesn't is wrong.

Here are some example of times the term "ego eimi is used but does mean YHWH simply for the reason that the trinitrian doesn't want it to. At Luke 22:33, when Peter said to Jesus, "I am prepared to go to prison with you and to death," should we assume that by his usage of 'ego eimi' he was saying "YHWH is prepared to go to prison with you and to death?". Again, if we simply assumed the words ego eimi were to be understood as the divine name, when John the Baptist used the words ego eimi saying, "I am not the Christ" should we wave our magic stick and say John the Baptist said, "Yahweh is not the Christ"? Of course not! In all these instances there's no reason to believe so, the same can be found with Jesus usage of ego eimi, there's nothing in the text to say or even imply that when he said 'ego eimi/I am' that it meant YHWH, the only thing that does suggest it is a already pre-conceived idea that Jesus is God.

Jesus used the term elsewhere in John where it is quite clear he did not intend to use a divine name. For example, the Samaritian woman said to Jesus, "I know that the Christ is coming" and Jesus responded to her, "I am who speaks to you." It should be obvious to anyone that Jesus uses the words ego eimi not for the purposes of claiming to be YHWH but to let her know he is the Christ who she just mentioned.

Some people also claim that the fact that the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus proves that the term was used to show that he was YHWH, however looking again at the other instances Jesus use of the word its clear this is also false. During this very same dialogue with the Jews in John chapter 8, Jesus used the term ego eimi several times before he used it at verse 8:58 (8:12,16,18,23,24,28). And through all these many utterances of ego eimi by Jesus, none of these Jews at any time ever supposed Jesus was referring to the divine name YHWH. For example, when Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am you wil die in your sins," the Jews did not respond by supposing Jesus was claiming to be YHWH. Instead, they did just the opposite by responding, "Who are you?"The thought that Jesus was using a divine name never even crossed their mind. And again At John 8:24-25, rather than recognizing the words ego eimi to be a direct reference to their God's divine name, the Jews had absolutely no idea who Jesus was claiming to be. But Trinitarians expect people to believe the claim that when Jesus used the same term at 8:58, the Jews immediately recognized, and necessarily would have recognized, ego eimi to be a reference to the divine name of their God.

Again the only reason why Jesus usage of "I am" (ego eimi) in John 8:58 was in reference to YHWH (according to the trinitrian) is because a trinitrian who already believes Jesus is God picks up his magic wand, waves it, and says that they want it to mean YHWH. There's simply not one shred of evidence to suggest it.

phil36 · Feb 1, 2014

And the Jews where going to stone him for it... I wonder why they would do that if it was as you say?

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

John 1:1 (NWT)
In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.

No legitimate Bible translation agrees with that rendering.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version (ASV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word ([SUP][a][/SUP]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [SUP][b][/SUP]Himself.

Common English Bible (CEB)

1 In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God
and the Word was God.
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

1 In the beginning was the one
who is called the Word.
The Word was with God
and was truly God.

Darby Translation (DARBY)

1 In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

1 Before the world began, the Word[SUP][a][/SUP] was there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version (ESV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Expanded Bible (EXB)

1 In the beginning [Gen. 1:1] ·there was the Word [the Word already existed; [SUP]C [/SUP]the Word refers to Christ, God’s revelation of himself]. The Word was ·with [in the presence of; in intimate relationship with] God [[SUP]C [/SUP]the Father], and the Word was [fully] God.

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to John

1 That Word begotten of God before all worlds, 2 and which was ever with the Father, 14 is made man. 6, 7 For what end John was sent from God. 15 His preaching of Christ’s office. 19, 20 The record that he bare given out unto the Priests. 40 The calling of Andrew, 42 of Peter, 43 Philip, 45 and Nathanael.
[SUP]1 [/SUP]In [SUP][a][/SUP]the [SUP][b][/SUP]beginning [SUP][c][/SUP]was [SUP][d][/SUP]that Word, and that Word was [SUP][e][/SUP]with God, and that [SUP][f][/SUP]Word was God.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Good News Translation (GNT)

1 In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

1 In the beginning was the Word,[SUP][a][/SUP]
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

1 [SUP]1-5 [/SUP]At the beginning God expressed himself. That personal expression, that word, was with God, and was God, and he existed with God from the beginning. All creation took place through him, and none took place without him. In him appeared life and this life was the light of mankind. The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.

Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Living Bible (TLB)

1 [SUP]1-2 [/SUP]Before anything else existed,[SUP][a][/SUP] there was Christ,* with God. He has always been alive and is himself God.

Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
John 1:1 MOUNCE - In the beginning was the Word, and the - Bible Gateway

1 In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.

Names of God Bible (NOG)

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Century Version (NCV)

1 In the beginning there was the Word.[SUP][a][/SUP] The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New English Translation (NET)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

1 In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New King James Version (NKJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Life Version (NLV)

1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

New Living Translation (NLT)

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

1 Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:3], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with, etzel, Mishle 8:30;30:4) Hashem, and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13 i.e., the Ma’amar Memra]

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[SUP][a

The Voice (VOICE)
[/SUP]
1 Before time itself was measured, the Voice was speaking.
The Voice was and is God.

World English Bible (WEB)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

1 The Word already was, way back before anything began to be. The Word and God were together. The Word was God.

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word. [In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.]

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

Not one of these translations agrees with the NWT there.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

Zechariah 12:10 (NWT)
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced,+ and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son.

Now keep in mind that some of these translations are more literal than others. Some are more paraphrases....
And, yes, some do seem to agree with the NWT, but that doesn't prove that it should be translated that way.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

American Standard Version (ASV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Common English Bible (CEB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP] but I will pour out a spirit of grace and mercy on David’s house
and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
They will look to me concerning the one whom they pierced;
they will mourn over him like the mourning for an only child.
They will mourn bitterly over him like the bitter mourning over the death of[SUP][a][/SUP] an oldest child.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.

Contemporary English Version (CEV) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering

[SUP]10 [/SUP]I, the LORD, will make the descendants of David and the people of Jerusalem feel deep sorrow and pray when they see the one they pierced with a spear. They will mourn and weep for him, as parents weep over the death of their only child or their first-born.

Darby Translation (DARBY)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]I will fill David’s family and the people living in Jerusalem with a spirit of kindness and mercy. They will look to me, the one they stabbed, and they will be very sad. They will be as sad as someone crying over the death of their only son, as sad as someone crying over the death of their firstborn son.

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Expanded Bible (EXB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on ·David’s family [[SUP]L [/SUP]the house of David] and the ·people in [inhabitants of] Jerusalem a spirit of ·kindness [grace] and ·mercy [prayer; supplication]. They will look at me, the one they have ·stabbed [pierced], and they will ·cry [[SUP]L [/SUP]mourn/lament for him] like someone ·crying [mourning; lamenting] over the death of an only ·child [son]. They will ·be as sad [grieve bitterly] as someone who has lost a firstborn son.

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of [SUP][a][/SUP]grace and of compassion, and they shall look upon me, whom they have [SUP][b][/SUP]pierced, and they shall lament for [SUP][c][/SUP]him, as one mourneth for his only son, and be sorry for him as one is sorry for his firstborn.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out the Spirit of blessing and mercy on David’s family and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look at me, whom they have stabbed. Then they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and they will cry bitterly for him as one cries for a firstborn son.

Good News Translation (GNT) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will fill the descendants of David and the other people of Jerusalem with the spirit of mercy and the spirit of prayer. They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will mourn for him like those who mourn for an only child. They will mourn bitterly, like those who have lost their first-born son.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Then I will pour out a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at[SUP][b][/SUP] Me whom they pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly for Him as one weeps for a firstborn.

Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of prayer, and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn over him as one mourns for his only son, afflicting themselves over him as one afflicts himself over his firstborn.

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“‘I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants[SUP][a][/SUP] of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication, and they will look to me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn over him, as one wails over an only child, and they will grieve bitterly over him as one grieves bitterly over a firstborn.

Living Bible (TLB) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Then I will pour out the spirit of grace and prayer on all the people of Jerusalem. They will look on him they pierced, and mourn for him as for an only son, and grieve bitterly for him as for an oldest child who died.

VCO · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

No it is not "crazy reasoning", it is exactly like the time Jesus described the NATURE of the Sanhedrin Judges position within the Sanhedrin (the Jewish Supreme Court), as being like gods.

John 10:33-38 (NKJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?
[SUP]35 [/SUP] If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
[SUP]36 [/SUP] do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
[SUP]37 [/SUP] If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
[SUP]38 [/SUP] but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

Names of God Bible (NOG)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out the Ruach of blessing and mercy on David’s family and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look at me, whom they have stabbed. Then they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son, and they will cry bitterly for him as one cries for a firstborn son.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [SUP][a][/SUP]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

New Century Version (NCV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on David’s family and the people in Jerusalem a spirit of kindness and mercy. They will look at me, the one they have stabbed, and they will cry like someone crying over the death of an only child. They will be as sad as someone who has lost a firstborn son.

New English Translation (NET)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn.

New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on David’s family line. I will also send it on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look to me. I am the one they have pierced. They will sob over me as someone sobs over an only child who has died. They will be full of sorrow over me, just like someone who is full of sorrow over an oldest son.

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]‘And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

New Life Version (NLV) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I will pour out the Spirit of loving-favor and prayer on the family of David and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look on Him Whose side they cut. They will cry in sorrow for Him, as one cries for an only son. They will cry much over Him, like those who have lost their first-born son.

New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Then I will pour out a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering, but it admits in a footnote that the Hebrew is actually "on me" there.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one[SUP][a][/SUP] whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
Footnotes:

Zechariah 12:10 Heb on me

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering, but it admits in a footnote that the Hebrew is actually "on me" there.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one[SUP][a][/SUP] whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
Footnotes:

Zechariah 12:10 Heb on me

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering, but it admits in a footnote that the Hebrew is actually "on me" there.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one[SUP][a][/SUP] whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Footnotes:

Zechariah 12:10 Heb on me

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering, but it admits in a footnote that the Hebrew is actually "on me" there.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one[SUP][a][/SUP] whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
Footnotes:

Zechariah 12:10 Heb on me

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I will pour upon the Bais Dovid, and upon the inhabitants of Yerushalayim, the Ruach (Spirit) of Chen (grace) and of Tachanunim (supplications for favor); and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced [dakar, "pierce through" cf. Yeshayah 53:5; Targum HaShivim Tehillim 22:17], and they shall mourn for Him (Moshiach) as one mourneth for his yachid (only son), and shall grieve in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his bechor (firstborn).

Revised Standard Version (RSV) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE) -- this one does seem to agree with the NWT rendering

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

The Voice (VOICE)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I pledge that I will pour out a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy on the family of David and the citizens of Jerusalem. As a result, they will look upon Me whom they pierced,[SUP][a][/SUP] they will grieve over Him as one grieves for an only child, and they will moan and weep for Him as one weeps for a firstborn son.

World English Bible (WEB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]I will pour on David’s house, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me[SUP][a][/SUP] whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I shall pour out on the house of David, and on the dwellers of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers; and they shall behold to me, whom they pricked. And they shall bewail him with wailing, as on the one begotten son; and they shall make sorrow on him, as sorrow is wont to be made in the death of the first begotten son. (And I shall pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and the spirit of prayer; and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced. And they shall bewail me with wailing, as if over their only child; and they shall make sorrow upon him, as sorrow is wont to be made upon the death of the first-born son.)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

So, while a few translations do render this verse as the NWT does, some of them include a footnote that says that the actual Hebrew there is "me." Others tend to be more on the parahprahse end of things. Most translate it "Me."

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

Hebrews 1:8 (NWT)
[SUP]8[/SUP] But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+ forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto the Son He saith, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Thy Kingdom.

American Standard Version (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).

Common English Bible (CEB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But he says to his Son,
God, your throne is forever
and your kingdom’s scepter is a rod of justice.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]but to the Son, he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever;
you rule your Kingdom with a scepter of equity;

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God says about his Son,
“You are God,
and you will rule
as King forever!
Your[SUP][a][/SUP] royal power
brings about justice.

Darby Translation (DARBY)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]but as to the Son, Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age, and a sceptre of uprightness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But this is what he said about his Son:
“God, your kingdom will last forever and ever.
You use your authority for justice.

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever,
the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom.

Expanded Bible (EXB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God said this about his Son:
“·God, your throne [[SUP]L [/SUP]Your throne, O God; ] will last forever and ever.
You will rule your kingdom with ·fairness [[SUP]L [/SUP]a just/righteous scepter; [SUP]C [/SUP]a scepter symbolizes royal authority].

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto the Son he saith, O God, thy [SUP][a][/SUP]throne is forever [SUP][b][/SUP]and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a [SUP][c][/SUP]scepter of righteousness.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God said about his Son,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice.

Good News Translation (GNT)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]About the Son, however, God said:
“Your kingdom, O God, will last[SUP][a][/SUP] forever and ever!
You rule over your[SUP][b][/SUP] people with justice.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]but to[SUP][a][/SUP] the Son:
Your throne, God,
is forever and ever,
and the scepter of Your kingdom
is a scepter of justice.

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)[SUP]5-14 [/SUP]For to which of the angels did he ever say such words as these: ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you?’ Or, again ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?’ Further, when he brings his first-born into this world of men, he says: ‘Let all the angels of God worship him’ This is what he says of the angels: ‘Who makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire’ But when he speaks of the Son, he says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions’. He also says: ‘You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak you will fold them up, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will not fail’. But does he ever say this of any of the angels: ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool?’ Surely the angels are no more than spirits in the service of God, commissioned to serve the heirs of God’s salvation.

Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto the Son he said, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a rod of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]but concerning the Son,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever[SUP][a][/SUP],
and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]but of his Son he says, “Your Kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever; its commands are always just and right.

Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
Heb 1:8 MOUNCE - But regarding the Son he says, “Your - Bible Gateway

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But de regarding pros the ho Son hyios he says, · ho “ Your sy throne thronos, O ho God theos, is for eis all ho time aiōn ho, · ho and kai the ho scepter rhabdos of ho absolute justice euthutēs is the scepter rhabdos of ho your sy kingdom basileia.

Names of God Bible (NOG)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God said about his Son,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter in your kingdom is a scepter for justice.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [SUP][a][/SUP]His kingdom.

New Century Version (NCV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But God said this about his Son:
“God, your throne will last forever and ever.
You will rule your kingdom with fairness.

New English Translation (NET)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]but of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But here is what he says about the Son.
“You are God. Your throne will last for ever and ever.
Your kingdom will be ruled by what is right.

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But about the Son he says,
‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a sceptre of justice will be the sceptre of your kingdom.

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

New Life Version (NLV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But about His Son, He says, “O God, Your throne will last forever. Whatever You say in Your nation is right and good.

New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But to the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) -- this says it could be rendered the way the NWT does

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is[SUP][a][/SUP] forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your[SUP][b][/SUP] kingdom.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 1:8 Or God is thy throne
Hebrews 1:8 Other ancient authorities read his

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA) -- this says it could be rendered the way the NWT does

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
‘Your throne, O God, is[SUP][a][/SUP] for ever and ever,
and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your[SUP][b][/SUP] kingdom.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 1:8 Or God is thy throne
Hebrews 1:8 Other ancient authorities read his

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE) -- this says it could be rendered the way the NWT does

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
‘Your throne, O God, is[SUP][a][/SUP] for ever and ever,
and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your[SUP][b][/SUP] kingdom

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE) -- this says it could be rendered the way the NWT does

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is[SUP][a][/SUP] forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your[SUP][b][/SUP] kingdom.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 1:8 Or God is thy throne
Hebrews 1:8 Other ancient authorities read his

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Hashem says to HaBen, KIS’AHCHA ELOHIM OLAM VAED SHEVET MISHOR SHEVET MALKHUTECHA ("Your throne, O G-d, will endure for ever and ever, and the scepter of justice is the scepter of your kingdom"‖TEHILLIM 45:7).

Revised Standard Version (RSV) -- this says it could be rendered the way the NWT does

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
“Thy throne, O God,[SUP][a][/SUP] is for ever and ever,
the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy[SUP][b][/SUP] kingdom.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 1:8 Or God is thy throne
Hebrews 1:8 Other ancient authorities read his

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE) -- this says it could be rendered the way the NWT does

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
“Thy throne, O God,[SUP][a][/SUP] is for ever and ever,
the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy[SUP][b][/SUP] kingdom.

Footnotes:

Hebrews 1:8 Or God is thy throne
Hebrews 1:8 Other ancient authorities read his

The Voice (VOICE)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But to the Son He said,
God, Your throne is eternal;
You will rule Your kingdom with the scepter of justice.

World English Bible (WEB)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But here is what God says about his Son: `O God, you will sit and rule for ever. You will rule in the right way.

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But to the Son he saith, God, thy throne is into the world of world [into the world of worlds]; a rod of equity is the rod of thy realm;

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign;

No Bible translation translates it the same way that the NWT does, although the RSV and the NRSV translation families say that it could be translated as the NWT does. These are the only translations that hint that that is a possible rendering, and the translators didn't go with that rendering. Instead, they went with the same thing that all other Bible translations did.

VCO · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

Correction: Firstborn is a TITLE sometimes called the Birthright, and indicates the one that has the RIGHT to inherit all that the FATHER possesses, INCLUDING HIS DEITY. It can be sold, as we saw in story of Essau and Jacob, it can be given to a non-family member if the Father so chooses, or the inheritor so CHOOSES. Jesus was also the inheritor (the Firstborn) of Joseph's possessions and property, the one with the Birthright. JESUS DID NOT CHOOSE TO PASS IT ON TO A FAMILY MEMBER, his next eldest brother; BECAUSE they did not fully believe in HIS DEITY. HE CHOSE TO GIVE THE FIRSTBORN BIRTHRIGHT TO THE POSSESSIONS AND PROPERTY OF JOSEPH TO JOHN, A NON-FAMILY MEMBER; SO THAT HE COULD AFFORD TO TAKE CARE OF HIS MOTHER. No woman was allowed to own property. This designating the Firstborn Birthright from the Cross even was legally BINDING according to Jewish LAW, and his brothers could not challenge it, because His Mother and the witnesses would testify to WHOM JESUS gave the Firstborn Birthright to the possessions and property of Joseph.

John 19:25-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
{There are you two or three witnesses to make the passing of the Birthright of Joseph, legally Binding.}
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple He loved standing there, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

konroh · Feb 1, 2014

14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Even in this verse, the name of God is shortened to "I AM", it would be perfectly reasonable for Jesus to do this in John 8. I AM WHO I AM and I AM mean the same thing.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

I think you mean something else instead of Psalm 45:5.....so I'm going to skip that one.

Matthew 4:10 (NWT)
[SUP]10[/SUP] Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah* your God you must worship,+ and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

I'll tell you right now that no translation is going to agree with the NWT here because the word "Jehovah" is not found in the actual Greek there. They put it in there because it is quoting an OT passage that does have YHWH in it. This isn't necessarily "wrong," although they aren't translating from the Greek when they do this. It also doesn't change the meaning of the passage, and it doesn't deny Jesus' own deity, even in the NWT.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto him, “Get thee hence, Satan! For it is written: ‘Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.’”

American Standard Version (ASV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, Begone, Satan! For it has been written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him alone shall you serve.

Common English Bible (CEB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus responded, “Go away, Satan, because it’s written, You will worship the Lord your God and serve only him.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Away with you, Satan!” Yeshua told him, “For the Tanakh says,
‘Worship Adonai your God, and serve only him.’” [SUP][a][/SUP]

Contemporary English Version (CEV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Go away Satan! The Scriptures say:
‘Worship the Lord your God
and serve only him.’”

Darby Translation (DARBY)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then says Jesus to him, Get thee away, Satan, for it is written, Thou shalt do homage to [the] Lord thy God, and him alone shalt thou serve.

Now this one is interesting. It uses the word homage here, and says we should only do homage to God, thus destroying your earlier argument that it's okay to pay homage to Jesus in the Bible, but not to worship Him, if Jesus isn't YHWH.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Get away from me, Satan! The Scriptures say,
‘You must worship the Lord your God.
Serve only him!’”

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

Expanded Bible (EXB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “·Go away from me [Get out of here; Be gone], Satan! [[SUP]L [/SUP]For] It is written in the Scriptures, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him [Deut. 6:13].’”

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto him, Avoid Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! Scripture says, ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

Good News Translation (GNT)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus answered, “Go away, Satan! The scripture says, ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him!’”

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus told him, “Go away,[SUP][a][/SUP] Satan! For it is written:
Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only Him.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Away with you, Satan!” replied Jesus, “the scripture says, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only you shall serve’.”

Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said unto him, Get thee hence, Satan, for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan, for it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”[SUP][a][/SUP]

Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “The Scriptures say, ‘Worship only the Lord God. Obey only him.’”

Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
Matthew 4:10 MOUNCE - Then Jesus said to him, “Away with - Bible Gateway

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then tote Jesus Iēsous said legō to him autos, · ho “ Away hypagō with you, Satan Satanas! For gar it stands written graphō, ‘ You shall worship proskyneō the Lord kyrios · ho your sy God theos and kai serve latreuō him autos alone monos.’”

Names of God Bible (NOG)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yeshua said to him, “Go away, Satan! Scripture says, ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and [SUP][a][/SUP]serve Him only.’”

New Century Version (NCV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to the devil, “Go away from me, Satan! It is written in the Scriptures, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”[SUP][a][/SUP]

New English Translation (NET)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Get away from me, Satan! It is written, ‘Worship the Lord your God. He is the only one you should serve.’” (Deuteronomy 6:13)

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[SUP][a][/SUP]”

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, ‘Away from me, Satan! For it is written: “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.”[SUP][a][/SUP]’

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you,[SUP][a][/SUP] Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”[SUP][b][/SUP]

New Life Version (NLV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to the devil, “Get away, Satan. It is written, ‘You must worship the Lord your God. You must obey Him only.’”

New Living Translation (NLT) -- this one actually agrees with the NWT, in that it uses YHWH there.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say,
‘You must worship the LORD your God
and serve only him.’[SUP][a][/SUP]”

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
‘Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.’”

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
“Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.”’

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, ‘Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
“Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.”’

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! for it is written,
‘Worship the Lord your God,
and serve only him.’”

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach says to him, Depart, Hasatan! For katuv (it is written), ES HASHEM ELOHEICHA TIRA VOTO TAAVOD (The L-rd your G-d you shall fear and Him you shall worship, DEVARIM 6:13).

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! for it is written,
‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! for it is written,
‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

The Voice (VOICE)
Jesus: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Get away from Me, Satan. I will not serve you. I will instead follow Scripture, which tells us to “worship the Eternal One, your God, and serve only Him.”[SUP][a[/SUP]

World English Bible (WEB)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “Get behind me,[SUP][a][/SUP] Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.’” [SUP][b][/SUP]

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But Jesus answered him, `Get away, Satan. The holy writings say, "You must worship the Lord your God. and he is the only one you are to worship." '

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship thy Lord God [for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God], and to him alone thou shalt serve.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then saith Jesus to him, `Go -- Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.'

Now, one thing that really stood out to me is that not only are we to only worship God, YHWH (and yes, since Jesus was quoting the OT, and the OT uses YHWH there, it actually means YHWH), we are also to serve only YHWH.....

Let's look at this Scripture:
Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [SUP][k][/SUP]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [SUP][l][/SUP]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Hmmm....people seem to be serving this Messiah they would God.....

Some translations actually say "worship" there.

Arwen4CJ · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

Luke 23:43 (NWT)
[SUP]3[/SUP] And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.

I'm guessing you are quoting this because of where the comma is placed....but it is my understanding that in the Greek there is no punctuation, so this isn't really a translation issue.

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.”

American Standard Version (ASV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Amplified Bible (AMP)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Common English Bible (CEB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise.”

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

Contemporary English Version (CEV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

Darby Translation (DARBY)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to him, “I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

English Standard Version (ESV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Expanded Bible (EXB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise [[SUP]C [/SUP]heaven or the presence of God].”

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV) [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in [SUP][a][/SUP]Paradise.

GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

Good News Translation (GNT)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “I promise you that today you will be in Paradise with me.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus answered, “I tell you truly, this day you will be with me in paradise.”

Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Lexham English Bible (LEB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus replied, “Today you will be with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise.”

Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
Luke 23:43 MOUNCE - And Jesus said to him, “In solemn - Bible Gateway

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And kai Jesus said legō to him autos, “ In solemn truth amēn I tell legō you sy: today sēmeron you will be eimi with meta me egō in en · ho paradise paradeisos.”

Names of God Bible (NOG)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Yeshua said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

New Century Version (NCV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

New English Translation (NET)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “What I’m about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise.”

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

New Life Version (NLV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “For sure, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’

New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to him, Omein, I say to you, hayom (today) with me you will be in Gan Eden.

Revised Standard Version (RSV)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The Voice (VOICE)

Jesus: [SUP]43 [/SUP]I promise you that this very day you will be with Me in paradise.

World English Bible (WEB)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, `I tell you the truth. Today you will be with me in God's garden of paradise.'

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

[SUP]43 [/SUP]and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

None of the translation committees from any of these Bibles chose to punctuate it the same way as the NWT.

johnluke · Feb 1, 2014

Bowman said:

The Malek Yahweh (Exo 3.2) said that He was the El Shaddai (Exo 6.3) who appeared to the patriarchs (Gen 17.1, 35.11).Thus, this would make Him The Son.QUOTE]Malek = Messenger, and in this case, a messenger of Yahweh ( in English, an angel of the LORD). A messanger of Yahweh is not the same Person as El Shaddai. Don't spend any more time discussing this.But your Ex. 6:3 and Gen. 17:1 and Gen. 35:11 scriptures are interesting.Remember I believe that Elohim of the Old Testament (translated "God") = God the Father of the New Testament Yahweh of the Old Testament (translated "LORD") = the Son of God, LORD Jesus Christ of the NT.One thing that makes Ex 6:3 interesting is earlier verses 6:1 and 6:2.So Ex. 6:1 says, the LORD (Yahweh) said unto Moses... Ex. 6:2 says, God (Elohim) spoke unto Moses and said, I am the LORD (Yahweh). Ex. 6:3 says, I appeared unto Abraham by the name of God Almighty (El Who Suffices) Gen. 17:1 says, the LORD (Yahweh) appeared unto Abraham and said unto him, I am Almighty God (El Who Suffices) Gen. 35:11 says, God (Elohim) said unto him, I am God Almighty (El Who Suffices)You have not debunked my belief in the names of the Persons of the Godhead. Your scriptures emphasize that God (Elohim) and the LORD (Yahweh) both spoke to Moses and Abraham and they both used the name of God Almighty (El Who Suffices)interchangeably. 6:2 even suggests that Elohim is perfectly comfortable using the name of his Son Yahweh as he wishes, and I suspect that Yahweh is perfectly comfortable using the name of his Father Elohim as he wishes. It is very clear from these scriptures you chose that the 3 members of the Godhead use their names interchangeably if necessary. They act as "ONE GOD" or in your venacular, they are ONE GOD.But to say that all 3 member's Old Testament names are Yahweh is not correct. It would be like saying in the New Testament, I baptize you in the name of the LORD and the LORD and the LORD. This is not correct either.

GreenNnice · Feb 1, 2014

Yes, vco, that's true, Scripture says so, I still think, we need to be careful in judging others, I don't call NWL not understanding God as One being as foolishness, but, not accepting, yet, of the Truth that the bible gives us of who Jesus really was on Earth, and, who He is now (sitting at the right hand of God on a throne in heaven), and, who He will be when we get to heaven. I am trying to understand from Him how to explain this better to NWL, for this is not his first time on c.c., it's not his first rodeo wrastle with us all on here. But, he's polite in his arguments and that is worth understanding that God is leading him to be led here, for being argumentative in a Christian forum and not being Christian will get you led off here, usually, a.k.a. 'banned.'

but, yes, Jesus is NOT just someone who represented God, He was/is/will always be God, and, we will see Jesus and God in heaven when we get there and on the new Earth. The words that come to mind are, 'You got to put a face to the name.' And, that is just it ! Jesus was a real man on Earth, BUT is also God. He didn't just get swallowed up after dying on the cross and is no more. He is STILL ALIVE, He is on the throne, reigning, ruling, with God, His sacrifice did not go for naught !!! Christ lived a sinless life, Christ went through terrible suffering, suffering he felt as a man and always that He felt as God, for He was both, fully man and fully God !!!

Then , He died on the cross, 'cursed,' even, as Hebrews tells us, but, then, He BROKE the curse for ALL mankind when He rose again !!!!!! Jesus rose again !! He came back to talk to The Twelve, to talk to others, before ascending to SIT at the right hand of the Father, where Jesus is sitting right NOW !

!

Submit to Him, submit to God , He is Lord God Almighty (Rev. 15:3, 11:17) !

Serve the LORD with reverent fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
Submit to God's royal son, or he will become angry,
and you will be destroyed in the midst of all your activities—
for his anger flares up in an instant.
But what joy for all who take refuge in him!

[video=youtube;0wRNwIKsnCs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wRNwIKsnCs[/video]

danschance · Feb 1, 2014

NWL said:

The Jehovah's Witnesses no doubt have Scholars within their organization, however because they choose to remain no part of the world they wouldn't seek academics routes which would make them prominent in their field of work, thus not making them referable.

Some Scholars however have translated their own translations with the same meaning as some NWT verses, some verses which other Bibles (pro-trinitrian Bibles alike) render the same as the JW's NWT are; John 1:1, Zec 12:10, Heb 1:8, Psalms 45:5, Matthew 4:10, Luke 23:43. These one are just of the top of my head, there's no doubt more.

If you wish to ask any more random question such as this one Bowman, then I ask you to consult Google. I don't appreciate random and unrelated questions from a disputatious person such as yourself.

"NWT scholars"? There are none.
For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Scholars & NWT

resurrection33 · Feb 1, 2014

Swingalong said:

I think of the Trinity like this:

The Lord can at the same time be a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, just as a man can simultaneously be a father, son, husband, school teacher, volunteer fireman, etc.

There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

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