How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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phil36 said:
What if every one decided ..No.. Its not much of a promise..

The promise is a certain fact that What God set out to do He will do! and its not based on mans sovereignty.
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If faith is not based on the freedom to choose to either believe or not believe, then what exactly is left, if not one's everlasting destination being based on who God has or has not chosen to receive salvation or damnation? If this is the case, then what purpose does His Judgment have, seeing that one's destination has already been chosen for him?

If one does not have a sovereign choice as to whom to follow, then what purpose does the Shepherd serve?

If it is not my choice to believe, then has not God forced me to believe, although Adam and Eve, Satan and a third of the angels, those who did or did not fall in the wilderness and those who will or will not receive the mark of the beast all had/have a choice in the matter? If my faith does not come from my heart, then why would God judge my heart, if that faith came from Him in the first place?

There are so many unanswered questions which remain if we say that we do not freely choose to follow God as Jesus Himself did. We are given no indication from what we know of Jesus in Scripture that He was forced into doing what He did. But, we do have many verses which say that He freely from His heart obeyed God even unto death. It was He was said, "Not my will, but your will be done".
 
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There are two sides to this coin and I believe they are completely compatible. Gods sovereign choice and mans free will.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Man has the free choice to accept or reject His priceless offer.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

If any man is lost it has been his decision to reject the free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

God knew before the creation of the world who would choose Him and who would reject Him.

The elect are the ones who have recieved Him.
 
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phil36 said:
by the way the part ' no one is righteous above is scripture not philosophy!
...
Hi Stinger hopefully the above helps you.
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Hello phil36,

I have decided to focus on this claim, for which you had previously cited Romans 3:9-18 as evidence (see your post #164).

In my responses to you, I was trying to get you to explain what you saw in this passage (and others) which leads you to believe the way you do. I was not able to get you to provide any significant explanation, but I think I know how you are reading this passage, so I will address that.

Here is that passage in full (plus some).

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written:
There is none righteous, no not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

None of us disagrees with the importance of this passage, but it is how one reads/understands it which is important. I claim that your understanding is amiss because you do not understand how Paul is using it. For example, where it says, "There is none righteous, no not one," you take that as meaning that there are no righteous persons period - they simply don't exist. But God throughout the bible is very clear that such righteous persons do exist and have always existed. Please do the following, read through Psalms 34-37 and Proverbs 10-12. God is continually comparing and contrasting the righteous with the wicked. Also, Jesus in a number of places, like Matt. 5:45, 13:17,49, and 23:37, declares that such righteous persons have always existed. This should then then cause us to ask, what point is Paul trying to make when He makes this quote (for truly righteous people have always existed)?

If you go back and read through those portions of the Psalms as I asked, afterwards also add to it Psalm 143:2. That Psalm says,

Do not enter into judgment with Your servant, for in Your sight no one living is righteous.

Here is one of the very few places that the Psalmist uses the term 'righteous' (as applied to a human) in an elevated sense. It is elevated in that it is being used to indicate that no one is sinless... not that such servants as himself (do notice the term 'servant') never seek after God or never desire to do good, but in this elevated sense no servant does these things perfectly.

You need to try to understand that Paul is using his quote in Romans 3 in this same elevated sense, and he even brackets his quote with verses 3:9 and 23 indicating this elevated usage, but for some reason many people (especially calvinists) miss that.

So I challenge you to rethink what it is you think this passage is saying, for I can assure you, it neither supports or says what you have been taught.
 
phil36 said:
First off, this verse has nothing to do really with the topic.. an one day homeward i'll be as perfect as you ;)
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In Christ you are made perfect, after you believed Christ to take away all sin in his Fathers sight, And Father has given you the gift of righteousness, his to participate in
[h=3]Colossians 1:22[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

I would like to remind us, we are not Holy: God is and has provided Christ the Son for us to be made Holy through his crucifixion, unto new life at the resurrection for us to have this new life in the Spirit here and now, and thus walk ass he walked
I do not claim perfection of me myself and I ever.
Sorry you are miss reading my posts as if I say I do not or never have not sinned, that makes me a liar and the truth not in me.
I have sinned, and can't predict future if will sin again or not. I can die daily and live to God daily by Faith
Remembering this to not be holier than you or anyone:



1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are the same in Father through Christ been given new life in the Spirit of God in unredeemed bodies, that Paul has said many times to reckon our selves dead to flesh sin with Christ at the death so we might see the new life in the Spirit of God and walk this way only where no sin can occur


[h=3]Philippians 3:10-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
 
phil36 said:
Hi Homeward,

all the above sounds good and tickles the ears of the , I, Me and mine syndrome of man :)

Also when I read through it, your thoughts are confused... then we get to the last part it gets worse... you say at the start it starts with God, then you change your min by the end of the paragraph and say that it all starts with 'free' choice (whatever that means you don't explain this either).

A lot of I, Me and Mine going on, before God is able to cope with your sovereign free choice.. and manages to actually help you in some way.

Instead of just taking Ephesians 1:13, read it right through. when you get to ch 2 it may surprise you ;)
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Still all starts with God Phil all. For mit is God that comes to each in the power of him, the Holy Ghost of promise, and tells you truth in beleif to salvation in him through Son and if when this occurs, you choose belief or unbelief. Choose belief and the good work begins, ad one grows in the Spirit of God, unto God's perfection, maturity in Christ Heb. 5:10-6:6 a good read on growing up
 
phil36 said:
What if every one decided ..No.. Its not much of a promise..

The promise is a certain fact that What God set out to do He will do! and its not based on mans sovereignty.
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Does not make void God and God's promises, every man a liar and God is righteous and the only one period, the creator of all, known truthfully only by and through Son Christ, the way, the truth and the new life found in the resurrected Christ in the Spirit not flesh, flesh is reckoned dead with Christ's death, since no flesh can please God. And it is God the Father that gives new life. A gift is not a gift if one has to earn it to get it or keep it
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
 
svedbygrace said:
Aint no misunderstanding for me, If you believe Christ died for people who are going to hell, then you are charging God with injustice !
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Free choice to choose life or stay dead. Died for all. The only thing left was and is to make the choice as to whom you beleive God and then serve God or believe not and serve self and man
No ifs ands or buts about this. At least how I see God as pure and fair to all, where at the end none will have an excuse for all will know and all will bow, whether they chose belief or not. No excuse
All will have had their chance and have chosen one way or the other
Sorry you do not see this. Do you claim belief, or you saved?
 
Stinger said:
Sorry, but that is your charge, not mine.
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That's Right, I am stating it. If you or anyone else, even myself, teach and or believe that anyone Christ has died for, ends up in Hell for their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24, then we are saying that which perverts God's Justice, and makes Him most Unjust !

Its Like a man who committed crimes, was found guilty of those crimes, spent 20 years in prison as the Just punishment from the Law, after 20 yrs, he gets out, the next day he is re arrested, tried again for the same exact crimes that he already satisfied justice for, and sentenced to another 20 yrs. Is that fair ?
 
svedbygrace said:
That's Right, I am stating it. If you or anyone else, even myself, teach and or believe that anyone Christ has died for, ends up in Hell for their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24, then we are saying that which perverts God's Justice, and makes Him most Unjust !

Its Like a man who committed crimes, was found guilty of those crimes, spent 20 years in prison as the Just punishment from the Law, after 20 yrs, he gets out, the next day he is re arrested, tried again for the same exact crimes that he already satisfied justice for, and sentenced to another 20 yrs. Is that fair ?
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Yet, the Prodigal Son, if he had not repented, would had stayed in the pig pen. Furthermore, let us not forget about those who were once enlightened and had fallen from the path, and how it is impossible to restore them for repentance.

Can one continue to walk in their crimes once they had paid for them? That is, can one walk contrary to God once they have been saved? No....Then once they have been justified from their past sins, they are not free to walk as they please, but must still walk pleasingly before God and if not? Do you think it would be fair that one who is saved is free to walk as he deems pleasingly while God would yet judge those who are deemed "unsaved"?
 
cfu

Yet, the Prodigal Son, if he had not repented
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There you go, evading my point. Did you understand the point made in post 213 ? Please read it, then explain the point I am making whether you agree with it or not. Thanks !
 
svedbygrace said:
That's Right, I am stating it. If you or anyone else, even myself, teach and or believe that anyone Christ has died for, ends up in Hell for their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24, then we are saying that which perverts God's Justice, and makes Him most Unjust !

Its Like a man who committed crimes, was found guilty of those crimes, spent 20 years in prison as the Just punishment from the Law, after 20 yrs, he gets out, the next day he is re arrested, tried again for the same exact crimes that he already satisfied justice for, and sentenced to another 20 yrs. Is that fair ?
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svedbygrace said:
There you go [cfultz3], evading my point. Did you understand the point made in post 213 ? Please read it, then explain the point I am making whether you agree with it or not. Thanks !
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Hello svedbygrace,

Even I must admit that I don't totally follow your logic in 213. Your analogy in the 2nd half of that post doesn't make sense to me. The man never paid for his crimes; and when such a person appears before the LORD at the judgement, then they will begin paying for their crimes for the very first time.

John the Baptist proclaimed Jesus as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Also, the disciple John says, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2).

Now these words do require interpretation, for we know that not everyone is saved. So how best to do that. As I suggested before, the best way to think about this is that as in the Passover, a lamb was killed and the blood applied. Jesus' blood is the once for all sacrifice for sin, which God makes available for the whole world. The only 'waste' of blood, if you want to call it that, is those who refuse to apply that blood to the doorposts of their heart. Why you resist this, I don't know, but let me ask you a question. In the 2nd half of Matthew 18 there is a parable about an unforgiven servant. This man was forgiven all his debts, but because of his subsequent behavior, his forgiveness was revoked and debts reinstated. So this parable, to me, seems to teach the very kind of thing you are vehemently arguing against. And why will there be weeping and gnashing of teeth at the judgement? Could it be that many will realize that His blood was available, but through their own stubbornness they refused to be covered by it?
 
svedbygrace said:
cfu

There you go, evading my point. Did you understand the point made in post 213 ? Please read it, then explain the point I am making whether you agree with it or not. Thanks !
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Sure I understood. You are saying that one who is saved cannot loose salvation and to that I replied:

cfultz3 said:
Yet, the Prodigal Son, if he had not repented, would had stayed in the pig pen. Furthermore, let us not forget about those who were once enlightened and had fallen from the path, and how it is impossible to restore them for repentance.

Can one continue to walk in their crimes once they had paid for them? That is, can one walk contrary to God once they have been saved? No....Then once they have been justified from their past sins, they are not free to walk as they please, but must still walk pleasingly before God and if not? Do you think it would be fair that one who is saved is free to walk as he deems pleasingly while God would yet judge those who are deemed "unsaved"?
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If one cannot loose salvation, then are we free to live as we want? What would happen if we decided to not hearken to the leading of the Spirit? What of all of those warning not to be lead or stray from the righteous paths?
 
stinger

Even I must admit that I don't totally follow your logic in 213.
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Then there is nothing for you to debate. If you cannot follow not agree with, my logic ! For its plain and simple what I set forth. Its also called double jeopardy, you know what that is ?
 
svedbygrace said:
cf

Ok then please rehearse it with me exactly as I explained it !
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It says that your age is 56? Or is it that I am not saying the words you wish to hear? Or you lack a proper response? Or you think that by saying such that you have refuted? Or you simple do not know how to exchange ideas?

This is the sort of continuous response one would expect from someone who is simply rehashing by coping and pasting from those others chat rooms one can quickly find by goggling your opening statement.

If this is going to be your reply for the most part, may I ask that you at least spell out my whole name to make it seem you took effort in your reply.
 
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