THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

Elin · Feb 17, 2014

Is that based in your uncertain private and literal interpretation of prophetic riddles in Rev 20-21?

Assumes a literal interpretation of unfulfilled symbolic prophetic riddles,
when the book of Revelation itself states that it contains symbolism.

This is uncertain private interpretation of prophetic riddles.

What principle?
Do you mean the uncertainty in private interpretation of prophetic riddles?

I got it from the only authoritative manual there is--the Bible, in Nu 12:6-8.

There God is defending Moses to Miriam and Aaron,
and he points out the difference in the way he gives prophecy to other prophets
in comparison to the way he gives prophecy to Moses,

that he gives prophecy to all other prophets indirectly (visions and dreams)
and unclearly (in riddles, dark sayings), whereas

to Moses, he speaks directly (face to face) and clearly (not in riddles).

God informs Miriam and Aaron that he gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings), and not clearly,
to all prophets but Moses:

"When a prophet of the LORD is among you,
I reveal myself to him in visions (not face to face),
I speak to him in dreams (not clearly).

But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;"

Personally, that's not how I would characterize this particular "manual."

dcontroversal · Feb 17, 2014

Elin said:

Well I will take a literal view as GOD gave REVELATION to his churches to be UNDERSTOOD by the WORDS and CONTEXT that are found in the book of the which has the title REVELATION which MEANS TO REVEAL, TAKE THE COVER OFF and you only gave one reference Nu 12:6-8. Where is your second and or third witness required to make something true and valid?

Not to mention that you take the Numbers reference out of context to prove you point.

Elin · Feb 17, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Did God not give all revelation to be understood?
And yet he says that he gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings).

So, again you're willing to set the word of God against itself,
(as you did with 2Co 11:2 against the rest of the NT)
when it says that prophecy is given in riddles (dark sayings), and not clearly (or literally).
(See discussion in blue text above.)

You've got some more reckoning to do.

So how may times does the Bible have to day it before it is true?

Whatever are you talking about. . .you're kidding, right?

The word of God must have two witnesses in order to be true?

Now I ask you, just where did you come up with that hair-ball principle?

You're gonn'a have to rip out most of your NT as untrue, because there is no other
Biblical witness to, for example:

Jn 2:1-11, 47-51;
chps 3-5, 6:25-71,
chps 8-11, 12:20-50, 13:1-16,
chps 14-17, 19:25-27, 31-37, 20:9-31,
chp 21;

or Mt 13:24-30, 36-50, 52, 18:23-24, 20:1-16, 21:28-32, 22:2-14, 25:1-13, 31-46;

or Lk 7:41-43, 10:30-37, 11:5-8, 12:16-21, 13:6-9, 14:7-14, 16-24, 38-33, 15:8-10,
11-32, 16:1-8, 19-31, 17:7-10, 18:2-8, 10-14.

Yew got yer'self a reel truncated Bible thar, buddy.

It falls to you, buddy, to demonstrate your assertion.

dcontroversal · Feb 17, 2014

Elin said:

I will not argue proved principles and direct quotes and statements with you. You are the one who has rejected numerous scriptures in context to push your view while taking words, tenses and direct statements and chunking them behind your back...There have been numerous scriptures that point to a yet future wedding between Christ and His bride, which you reject and deny...You quote John chapter three as having no other biblical witness of the which Jesus gives the O.T. picture (1 witness) and the N.T. fulfillment in Christ (2nd witness) You apply verses 47-51 Chapter 2 of John which ends with verse 25 so the only one here choking on a hairball is you.

Your Numbers quote was taken out of context to prove you heretical point!
You deny the future context of the following verses to teach your heresy concerning a wedding that has not happened yet!
Address the future context as found in these verses.

Matthew 25:1-13
Parable of the 10 virgins.....Vs. 10 And while they went to buy (foolish virgins), the bridegroom (CAME); and they that were ready WENT IN WITH HIM TO THE MARRIAGE: and the door was shut. ------->FUTURE CONTEXT

Revelation 21:1-3
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, PREPARED AS A BRIDE ADORNED FOR HER HUSBAND. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.----->FUTURE CONTEXT

Revelation 21:9-10
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB’S WIFE. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that GREAT CITY, the HOLY JERUSALEM descending out of heaven from God.------->FUTURTE CONTEXT

2nd Corinthians 11:1-2
Would to God ye could bear with me in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.---->espoused does not equal marriage and supports FUTURE CONTEXT ---->betroth, woo, espoused--->not married

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready...--->FUTURE CONTEXT

You will not change my mind and I will not change your mind as you reject too many scriptures to ever hope that you may open your eyes....Having said that....

IF YOU WISH TO BELIEVE AND TEACH THAT THE WEDDING OF CHIRST UNTO HIS BRIDE HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE THEN HAVE A BALL...I GUESS YOU DIDNT GET INVITED. ME ON THE OTHER HAND WILL BELIEVE THAT IT HAPPENS WHEN CHRIST RETURNS WHICH THE SCRIPTURES POINT TO IN ABOVE FUTURE CONTEXT!

Elin · Feb 17, 2014

dcontroversal said:

You have yet to present anything from certain and unequivocal Biblical teaching
that stands up to Biblical scrutiny of the way you use it.
And that includes Eph 5:31-32 and 2Co 2:11.

What other biblical witness do you have to Jn 3 itself, what witness that Jesus even said and did those things which Jn 3
reports that he said and did?

But okay, remove whatever part of chp 3 you disagree with.
That still leaves 11 chapters and almost 35 passages in three gospels alone
with no other Biblical witness to the accounts.

And that doesn't even include Paul, where a minimum of 95% of his writings have no second and third witness,
revelation being given to him alone, personally.

I apologize for the typo, should have been 1:47-51, which is now corrected.

So add Jn 6:5-13, 19-21 to make up for it.

Assertion without demonstration is without merit.

All previously addressed, either in the discussion above on Nu 12:6-8, or in previous post, [post=1413886]here[/post].

You will not change my mind and I will not change your mind as you reject too many scriptures[/quote]
Addressed above. . .your use of them has been demonstrated to fail Biblical scrutiny.

I believe that the church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12 1Co 12:27; Col 1:18, 24)
in the only Biblical way that it can be; i.e.,
in the two-in-one-enfleshment (Ge 2:24) of the marital union Eph 5:31-32).

Elin · Feb 17, 2014

Clean-up and re-post of bottom of previous post.

dcontroversal said:

Assertion without demonstration is without merit.

All previously addressed, either in the discussion above on Nu 12:6-8, or in post #126, here.

Addressed above. . .your use of them has been demonstrated to fail Biblical scrutiny.

I believe that the church is the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23, 4:12 1Co 12:27; Col 1:18, 24)
in the only Biblical way that it can be; i.e.,
the two-in-one enfleshment (Ge 2:24) of the marital union (Eph 5:31-32).

Elin · Feb 17, 2014

And another typo:

This line (my third response from the bottom) should have been:

All previously addressed in post #133, here.

Elin · Feb 17, 2014

watcher2013 said:

I don't try to interpret prophetic riddles.

I have no need for it, for whatever the riddles mean, they must agree with what is certain and unequivocal in Biblical teaching, because the Bible does not contradict itself.

So I study what is certain and unequivocal.

In that way, although I cannot tell you what prophetic riddles do mean,
I can definitely tell you what they do not mean
when interpretation of them contradicts certain and unequivocal Biblical teaching.

Yahshua · Feb 17, 2014

Ok so let's work backwards from Revelation 21:9-11; 22-25

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

[...]

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 The nations will walk by its light and the kings of the earth will bring their grandeur into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

So from this passage, we learn that:

a) THE Bride = The Great City New Jerusalem
b) This great city descends out of heaven (to the earth)
c) "The bride" is full of light, shining. This light is from "The glory of God" (so no need for sun)
d) Other nations will bear witness to this shining light

Now the question is, "is this light allegorical or literal?" because if it's allegorical there's an argument that can be made for "The Bride" (i.e. The Great City) existing *now* (as in "let your light shine before men that they may see your good deeds"; Matt 5:16)...but if the particular light as detailed emanating from "The Great City" is literal, then I think that would prove "The Bride" is not yet manifested. So the following passages are for all to consider:

Exodus 34:29-35 [brackets mine]

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not [i.e. "did not realize"] that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.

32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.

34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the veil off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the veil upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

So Moses - after being in the presence of God for as long as he was - had skin that literally started shining, so much that it freaked people out, so he put a veil over his face. Again, the effect of his face shining was being in God's continued presence.

Matthew 17:1-3

1 And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James, and John his brother, and brings them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Here's a scene of Christ being transfigured in front of his closes apostles after saying that some of the apostles would not die until they saw Christ in his kingdom. Christ's face is literally shining as he talks with Moses and Elijah.

Revelation 1:16 [brackets mine]

And [Christ] had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shining in his strength.

Here's another instance of Christ - now glorified - visiting John, and again his face is said to be shining like the sun.

Luke 9:28-31

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Back to another account of the Transfiguration; here we're told that Moses and Elijah appeared "in glory". If we recall Revelation 21:23 (from above) "the glory of God" is what illuminates The Great City ("The Bride"), so Moses and Elijah were also literally shining during this scene.

Matthew 13:24; 36-43

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[...]

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So these passages prove that one of the distinguishing characteristics of THE Bride (i.e. The Great City of New Jerusalem) is that its citizens (i.e. the righteous) will *literally* emanate light, shining like the brightness of the sun...like the branches of the burning bush that weren't consumed.

- Moses literally shone like the sun and Israel witnessed it (and were afraid)
- Christ, Moses & Elijah literally shone like the sun and 3 apostles witnessed it
- Christ literally shone like the sun in the Revelation vision given to John
- The Great City is said not to need sunlight or moonlight ("literal" light sources), not experiencing night
- Christ explains to the apostles that all the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of God

However, there is currently no persons on earth whose skin literally shines like the sun at the present moment...so I think scripture proves THE Bride, New Jerusalem (The Kingdom of God) has not yet manifested (i.e. descended from heaven to earth).

Luke 22:18

For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Matthew 26:29

I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

...we wait to do this with Christ in his kingdom...the city of light, THE Bride; New Jerusalem.

watcher2013 · Feb 18, 2014

Elin said:

You do not interpret prophetic riddles? But you interpret allegorical message... (heavenly Jerusalem)

Maybe the truth is, in one of your study: you expect the Lord to get His Bride.
Or maybe in one of your study, you do look forward for that new heaven and new earth and even new Jerusalem placing them in the future to hope for.
But you just would not admit that, because you are covered by much pride to even admit defeat or even admit you are wrong.
Read "yashua" response... You will learn something from that...

Elin · Feb 18, 2014

watcher2013 said:

Such confusion.

I don't interpret the allegory, the text interprets the allegory (Gal 4:25-26) it in certain
and unequivocal Biblical teaching.

You don't see the difference between the certain meaning of Biblical teaching

and the uncertain meaning of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8)?

It's not complicated.

Or maybe the truth is I believe the meaning of certain and unequivocal Biblical teaching that

the church is the body of Christ now

in the only Biblical way that it can be; i.e.,

in the two-in-one enfleshment (Ge 2:24) of the maritial union (Eph 5:31-32),

and I do not set the certain and unequivocal meaning of NT teaching against

the uncertain meaning of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:6-8).

You must demonstrate that I am wrong, not just assert that I am wrong, or your assertion

is without merit.

Elin · Feb 18, 2014

Yahshua said:

Okay, you lost me at "work backwards."

The Bible wasn't written backwards, and I don't study it backwards.

I study it in context, a lot of which is based on what went before.

Working backwards is no way to study the Bible if you want to understand it correctly.

I'm beginning to see why there is so much confusion on this.

watcher2013 · Feb 18, 2014

Elin said:

How do you understand numbers 12:6-8?
Do you think that the visions given to prophet will not be understand and will remain riddles????

or what the text really said was. That God's way of talking to prophets were through visions and dreams. and that Moses was exceptionally different from prophets...

Did not God talk to Isaiah through vision and gave understanding to them...
Did Jeremiah warned his people about the vision given to him regarding the destruction of the temple...
I can give you many example, about the visions/dreams given to prophets and they understood what the vision...
Having said that...there are visions that are reserved for different time like some of the visions to Daniel (Dan 12:9).

You were asked what your interpretation or even understanding as to When is the New Heaven and New Earth and the New Jerusalem established...and you avoid.

That is very basic...Whatever your end times belief, as long as someone believe in Jesus....That SOMEONE SURELY IS LOOKING FORWARD FOR THE COMING OF JESUS CHRIST and TO LIVE IN THAT CITY (Whether that City is in Heaven or a reality of NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH)...it is future...

Whatever the Case, we Hope for the coming of our Lord Jesus...and that is IN future...

Were you not arguing that the Church is the Bride of Christ?

Were you arguing about the "Bride of the Lamb", which I remember was only mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

But if you were convinced that the Church is the Body of Christ and NOT THE BRIDE then good.

you may not admit it...and we do not have a judge or a Jury to prove otherwise...

"assertion without demonstration is without merit" applies where we have a judge who will decide the merits of every argument...

here everyone decides as to the merits of every argument.

your failure to give your belief as to the timing of the New heaven and New Earth, and New Jerusalem where there are no more seas reflects your lack of understanding of the Bride...

watcher2013 · Feb 18, 2014

Elin said:

Depends on what you have:

I think the O.T which originally in Hebrew were written from right to left...

"Respect and you will earn respect"....

You are good in allegory...apply it.

homwardbound · Feb 18, 2014

watcher2013 said:

There is Spiritual food to eat and there is worldly food, I choose the Spirit, and yes being alive in flesh it requires worldly food. yet as Paul so well tried to teach us:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Yahshua · Feb 18, 2014

Elin said:

The question is, "is the prophecy of The Great City; THE Bride; New Jerusalem allegorical or literal?" because if it's allegorical there's an argument that can be made for "The Bride" (i.e. The Great City) existing *now*...but if any part of it is proven literal, then I think that would prove "The Bride" is not yet manifested. So the following passages are for all to consider whether the "light" that shines from The Great City is allegorical or literal...(provided to you all *in order* for ease of study):

Exodus 34:29-35 [brackets mine]

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not [i.e. "did not realize"] that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.

32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a veil on his face.

34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the veil off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the veil upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

So Moses - after being in the presence of God for as long as he was - had skin that literally started shining, so much that it freaked people out, so he put a veil over his face. Again, the [cause] of his face shining was being in God's continued presence. Precedent and context established.

Matthew 13:24; 36-43

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[...]

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Christ says the righteous will shine like the sun in his kingdom...but is this allegorical or literal? Well the following passage answers this question.

Matthew 17:1-3

1 And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James, and John his brother, and brings them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Here's a scene of Christ being transfigured in front of his closes apostles after saying that some of the apostles would not die until they saw Christ in his kingdom. Christ's face is literally shining as the sun as he talks with Moses and Elijah. Context followed.

Luke 9:28-31

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

Here's another account of the same Transfiguration; here we're told that Moses and Elijah appeared "in glory"...but what does "glory" mean?

Revelation 1:16 [brackets mine]

And [Christ] had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shining in his strength.

Here's another instance of Christ - now glorified - visiting John, and again his face is said to be shining like the sun.

From Revelation 21:9-11; 22-25

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

[...]

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 The nations will walk by its light and the kings of the earth will bring their grandeur into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Finally from this passage, we learn that:

a) THE Bride = The Great City New Jerusalem
b) This great city descends out of heaven (to the earth)
c) "The bride" is full of light, shining. This light is from "The glory of God" (so no need for sun)
d) Other nations will bear witness to this shining light

Also, if we recall Luke 9:28-31 (from above); "the glory of God" is what illuminates The Great City ("The Bride"), so Moses and Elijah were also literally shining during Christ Transfiguration. Context confirmed.

Conclusion: So all of these passages together prove that one of the distinguishing characteristics of THE Bride (i.e. The Great City of New Jerusalem) is that its citizens (i.e. the righteous) will *literally* emanate light, shining like the brightness of the sun...like the branches of the burning bush that weren't consumed.

- Moses literally shone like the sun and Israel witnessed it (and were afraid)
- Christ explains to the apostles that all the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of God
- Christ, Moses & Elijah literally shone like the sun and 3 apostles witnessed it
- Christ literally shone like the sun in the Revelation vision given to John
- The Great City is said not to need sunlight or moonlight ("literal" light sources), not experiencing night

Further Conclusion: However, there is currently no persons on earth whose skin literally shines like the sun at the present moment...so I think scripture proves THE Bride, New Jerusalem (The Kingdom of God) has not yet manifested (i.e. descended from heaven to earth).

---

Matthew 26:29

I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Luke 22:18

For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

...we wait to do this with Christ in his kingdom...the city of light, THE Bride; New Jerusalem.

Shilo · Feb 18, 2014

In God’s word there is always layers so more then one person can be right, but you must let God's word speak for it's self
Revelation 21

[SUP]11 [/SUP]having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal = she is without spot
Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

twelve gates = names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

This is just how the children of Israel sat around the Mishcon Tabernacle in The Book of Numbers

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names[SUP][i][/SUP] of the twelve apostles of the Lamb
Romans 15:20
And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man's foundation
1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

Ephesians 2:19-20

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

- Matthew 16:18

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.
Revelation 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones:
The stones of each tribe
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Acts 17:24–25God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is [SUP]r[/SUP]Lord of heaven and earth, [SUP]s[/SUP]does not dwell in temples made with hands

Acts 7:48-51[SUP]48 [/SUP]Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Isaiah 66:1-2

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Look in the word and see many places God is building his city with people. The book of revelation is a book of symbols so you need to read new Jerusalem that way also. There is going to be a new Jerusalem right where old Jerusalem is. What that city is going to be like we just don’t know.

Hebrews 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God

1 Corinthians 2:9 9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
-

Elin · Feb 18, 2014

watcher2013 said:

Let me begin by pointing out the track record of God's people in correctly interpreting
prophecy before it is fulfilled is nothing short of dismal. . .going all the way back
to the time of Jesus, where they thought prophecy meant he would be an earthly king,
right up to our own day, in the interpretations that are making the news.

Prophecy is given in riddles whose meanings often are uncertain to us.

The meaning of prophecy is certain to us only
1) when it is explained Biblically (e.g., Da 2; Rev 17:15-18), or
2) when it is fulfilled.

Then let me move on to also point out that God gives prophecy not only as warning,
but also that in its fulfillment to the last detail, the prophecy is proven to be from God.

Call it "proving the existence of God," if you will.

So the fact that the meanings of prophetic riddles are not certain to us
has no bearing on God's design for the prophecy.

I think it couldn't be clearer that "what the text really said was:"
God gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings) to all prophets but Moses.

Would you please provide an example of each of the three that I may examine them
and make an informed response. Thanks.

You asked what I thought was the meaning of the prophecy in Revelation.
I don't try to interpret prophetic riddles.

However, from the certain and unequivocal teaching of 2Pe 3:10-13, I know that
the new heaven and new earth is eternity, at the end of time.

From the certain and unequivocal teaching of Heb 12:22-23, I know that
in the New Covenant, the Hebrew Christians had come from Mt. Sinai
to Mt. Zion,

to the heavenly city,

to the church of the firstborn
(i.e., redeemed--Ex 13:13, 15, 30:12, 34:20; Nu 18:15-16; 1Pe 1:18;
ransomed--Ex 30:12; Mt 20:28; bought back--1Co 6:20, 7:23; purchased--Ac 20:28).

Heb 12:22 identifies the heavenly city with the church.

All of this was clearly presented to you in post #99, here.

You don't get the Biblical meaning of the marriage union, do you?

As his wife, the church is two-in-one-flesh with Christ; i.e., his body, his flesh and bone.
And Christ is the Lamb, whose bride is the New Jerusalem.

The wife (one in his flesh, his own body) of Christ is the church (Eph 5:31-32).
Christ is the Lamb (Jn 1:29, 36; 1Pe 1:19).
The bride of the Lamb is the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:9-10, 14b).

You must demonstrate the above are untrue, in order to demonstrate the following is untrue:

Therefore, the wife and bride of Christ, the Lamb, is the church, the New Jerusalem.

It's not complicated.

Actually, demonstration is what decides.

We assume that everyone here is capable of determining whether one's statement/argument
has been actually demonstrated or not, and is also capable, if necessary, of demonstrating
how it has not.

Or perhaps it reflects not basing one's beliefs on prophetic riddles of uncertain meaning,
which can be, and are, validly interpreted by others to mean things entirely different,

but rather basing one's belief on certain and unequivocal Biblical teaching, as in
Eph 1:22-23, 4:12, 5:31-32; 1Co 12:27; Col 1:18, 24; Heb 12:22-23.

Elin · Feb 18, 2014

watcher2013 said:

Your allegory fails.

You are not using "backward" as it was used in the post to which I was responding.

Elin · Feb 18, 2014

Yahshua said:

Prophecy is given in riddles (Nu 12:6-8), therefore, its meaning is uncertain to us.

Some take them literally, some take them symbolically.

Their meaning is not known with certainty until they are fulfilled.

Nor is there a Biblical rule that a prophecy must either be only symbol, or metaphor,
or allegory, or literal.
It may be, or it may not be, all of them at different points.

That any part of a prophecy is any one of these does not necessitate the whole prophecy being the same.

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned