Does the Bible teach Eternal Security

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

NO IT DOES NOT

The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.

''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

Returning to your own vomit 2nd Peter 2:20-22
2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
Let's look at these verses one at a time.
Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?
Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.
I will touch more on this in a future chapter about Christians that return to or continue in sin when I get to Hebrews 10:26-31 but right now let's look at what Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48
Luke 12:47-48
47 And the servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did thing worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Those that have been saved and truly know God's will, if they fall away they will suffer worse than those that never knew God or His will at all.
Verse 22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
When we as Christians turn back to sin it is like a dog returning to his own vomit. Also those of us that have had our sins washed away by the blood of Christ. If we turn from Him and back to the world, then it is like a pig that had been washed returning to the mud pit.

There is no question that all of these passages individually and definitely in combination prove that the Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine is unbiblical at best and a lie of Satan at worst.

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

You never answered my question from yesterday, when does a person receive eternal life?

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

Baptistrw said:

Actually I did. We receive Eternal life after we have overcome this world, keeping God's word, enduring until the end.

Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Revelation 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations.

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

So no one has eternal life right now? How much of God's word do we need to keep to get it? And what does enduring til the end mean?

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

Baptistrw said:

Jesus ended the Sermon on the mount in Matthew 5-7

Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

Doing the word is what keep us from falling not hearing it.

James1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

People that believe themselves to be saved yet do not do the word are deceived by their own selves.

Enduring to the end means to keep your faith in Christ, while obeying His word until death or the rapture.

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

You avoided the question again, does anyone have eternal life right now?

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

The problem with your view baptist is all though it is romantic, it is not biblical. God's word is on my side, so you can never win this debate, because like I said scripture supports my view.

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

Baptistrw said:

I answered the question twice now. Can you not understand it? We receive our eternal, immortal life once we have endured this one.

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

You keep avoiding questions, Jesus said in John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life... doesn't say anything about doing good works to the end... John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand... (Jesus gives them eternal life and they'll never perish, but if they can lose eternal life, then couldn't they perish? So was Jesus mistaken?)

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

How can you know you have eternal life if it's not secure?

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

1st John 5:11-3
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

What does this passage say? It says that we can stop believing if we choose to. Therefore John is stressing to us that if we do not have the Son we do not have Eternal life so to receive Eternal life we must'' CONTINUE'' to believe. If we must continue to believe to receive Eternal life then this tells us that we can stop believe once having first believed.

Like I said scripture is on my side, even the scriptures you give prove my point.

We know that if we KEEP the faith until the end (as I have already stated) we will receive Eternal life

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

We receive eternal life the moment we believe, Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

or as the ESV puts it..
1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
or the MKJV
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son.

Gave? Has given? Shouldn't that read will give if we don't have it yet?

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

Baptistrw said:

Satan believe on Jesus does he have eternal life?

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe, and tremble!

According to you Satan is going to rejoice in heaven with us. No you not that faith with out works are dead?

James 2:24 & 26
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

There is nothing you can quote that will show the Bible teaches eternal security, we must keep God's word until the end. That is what scripture tells us.

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

You missed the point, as always. Except we have eternal life now, or else we couldn't know we have it, and continue to believe. I think you have absolutely no clue about the work of the Holy Spirit. Can the Holy Spirit leave someone after they have been sealed with Him?

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

onwingsaseagles said:

Baptistrw said:

I will tell you this much about the Holy Spirit ''He is no rapist''. He will not stay around were He has been rejected. He will not force you to continue to serve Him just because at one point you did. He will not drag you to heaven kicking an screaming because at one point you said a prayer got baptized and lived as a christian for such and such amount of years. If you decide to turn you back on God and back into sin that is your choice and the Holy Spirit will not deny you your free will.

No servant of sin will enter heaven regardless if they were once saved or not.

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

How much sin does one have to commit to be a servant of sin?

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

Baptistrw said:

If you are asking that question you are in a bad place. A true servant of God would not be wondering what can I get away with and still be a Christian. A true Christian will be so far removed from sin they wouldn't want to do anything they might offend God, whether it is sinful or not.

onwingsaseagles · Jan 21, 2009

Revelation 2:1-5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:1-5
Revelation 2:1-5
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven candle sticks;
2 I know thy works and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou can not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them that say they are apostles, and are not and found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name sake thou hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
If anyone need not to repent and to be secure about their salvation it seems to be these people, yet they were doing and saying all the right things. Jesus said their hearts were not right before God and told them they needed to repent. Also notice that at one time their hearts were right because he said ''you left your first love'' not that you had never loved Him. So they had grown cold towards God after once loving Him and as Jesus clearly stated they were in need of repentance ''or else''
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come against you quickly, and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
This was written to a church, the church at Pergamos. Jesus is returning at the end of the Tribulation to reward the righteous and destroy the wicked. Those in the church that refuse to repent will be included with the wicked unless they repent, whether they 'believe themselves to be ''Christians'' or not.
Revelation 3:1-5
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works, that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.
Let look at this passage one verse at a time,
Verse 1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, I know thy works , that thou has a name that livest, and art dead.
This verse reminds me more of the ''American'' church than any in Revelation. Many would argue that the lukewarm church in Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-22 is more representative of the American church, but I believe the church today is more than lukewarm. In many cases, I believe the church has become completely dead. We have a name that lives ''Jesus Christ'' but we ourselves are spiritually dead, having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. We say we are alive in God but we are dead in our sins.
Verse 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before the God.
I believe the message in this verse is that our relationship to God is not self-sustainable but requires work on our part to continue to strengthen ourselves in Him. If not it will fade away, just like any other relationship.
Verse 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent. If thou shall not watch I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Jesus tells them unless they repent he will come against them as a thief and we see in 1st Thessalonians 5:2-4 that Jesus will not come against the righteous as a thief but only the unbelieving and the wicked.
1st Thessalonians 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Jesus is speaking to the church, to believers, yet He tells them to repent or else He will come against them. This is clear that the OSAS doctrine is false. They were at one time right before God, yet unless they repent they would forfeit their right standing in his eyes.
Verse 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy.
Just like in America, although most in the church are not truly saved. There were a few that did obey God and refrained from sin not defiling their garment. It's those people and those alone that will walk with Jesus in white garment, not the entire church.
Verse 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot their name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Only those that overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. Two points to be made here: #1 Jesus would not have needed to tell the overcomers that their names would not be blotted out if it were impossible for anyone to ever have their names blotted out of the book of life. #2. Those who do not overcome will indeed have their names blotted out, and Jesus will not confess your name before the Father.

Remember, Jesus was speaking to the church, people that had once been saved, and probably believed themselves to still be. But they had fallen short of their call and had knowingly or unknowingly fallen away from God. Jesus tells them they were in need of repentance and would endure the judgments of the wicked unless they repented.
Today's church, especially in America, is in serious need of repentance. They twist scripture to teach dangerous false doctrines such as Eternal Security and many others. They also use scripture to make excuses for their sin. The church may turn a blind eye to your sin but God will not.

Baptistrw · Jan 21, 2009

I'm asking that question to show you the fallacy of your argument. If we can lose our salvation, how much sin does one have to commit to lose it?

Does the Bible teach Eternal Security

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