Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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Aug 25, 2013
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I owe you an apology. I misinterpreted what you were explaining.

Cycel
Astronomers around the world thought the the universe was slowing down. It was then discovered that it was speeding up.
This is where I went wrong. Astronomers have know since the 1920s that the universe was expanding, in fact Einstein had predicted it in 1916, and this is what I thought you meant data from the Hubble telescope had found. What you actually meant is that the expansion was found to be increasing.

Jda said:
"Until recently, astronomers fully expected to see gravity slowing down the expansion of the cosmos. In 1998, however, researchers discovered the repulsive side of gravity....And this explanation, in turn, led to the conclusion that the expansion of the universe is actually speeding up, not slowing down. This was such a radical finding..."
This quote from Scientific American is a little misleading. Until this time discussion centred around whether the universe would continue to expand indefinitely, or whether it would eventually slow and contract into a Big Crunch. Many astronomer favoured the latter view but there have always been those who were less sure. I grew up following Fred Hoyle who postulated a Steady State universe that would not collapse (it was he who coined the term, Big Bang), and I submit that despite what you have tried to show the verdict is not yet in. Look to the end of the Scientific American article you linked to. It concludes by saying that more data is needed to reach any firm conclusions about whether the universe will continue to increase its expansion rate, whether it will slow and reverse its expansion, or whether something else will happen. It looks like the authors have not ruled out anything yet.

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~wolfj/AcceleratingUniverse.pdf (source)

Jda said:
You seemed to miss the whole point of my argument, which was that if something was so commonly held to be true was in fact wrong...
The authors also say, “Cosmic acceleration was a surprise and a new puzzle to solve, but it is not so surprising as to make us rethink much of what we understood about the universe.” So it is not the big deal you are wanting to make it into. Look, everyone knew the universe was expanding, but the rate of the expansion was unknown. Then in comes data telling them that the expansion rate is increasing. True, it didn’t confirm what they expected to find, but that’s why they do science.

Jda said:
... if something was so commonly held to be true was in fact wrong, then how can an athiest say with absolute certainty that God can not exist?
It looks like you are equating these scientists with atheists. I won’t take the time to look up the stats, but I think I saw that about 40% of astronomers believe in God. If so then your question is something of a non-issue. Although I will say the majority of these theistic astronomers reject the claims of Genesis. Why? – because they know the facts.

However, you were looking for the atheist perspective, and that’s a bit different. The main physical evidence for the expansion of the universe is the existence of red-shifted galaxies. Let’s say, for the sake of argument it is discovered that the distant galaxies are red-shifted for a totally different reason than what we think. How does that affect my view of God? Well, it doesn’t. The new finding is still based on observations, perhaps on a greater refinement of the same observations we were dealing with earlier. How does any of this impact on our understanding of God? It doesn’t. It is not related.

You want me to say, if scientific investigations sometimes cause us to reinterpret our understanding, then maybe we should recognize our ideas on God might be wrong as well?

I think I know what the issue is. You perceive science as attacking your belief in God. So if you can show that science sometimes gets things wrong and has to reconsider previous ideas, then maybe it should also consider the possibility that the ideas within science, that you perceive as attacking God, are also wrong. God, then, should be considered as a possibility.

Am I close? Is this your thinking?
 
Aug 25, 2013
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That a virgin should conceive and bring forth a man-child, this was indeed a new thing, a strange thing, a wonderful thing, a thing that was never thought of, never heard of, never read of, from the creation of the world to that very day.

... The prophet, Isaiah, is dated in the 8th Century B.C. (Before Christ). Fulfilled prophecy is strong evidence to support the unique distinctives of Jesus Christ.
Aside from the fact that the impregnation of young women by gods is nothing terribly new in antiquity, despite your claim that this is a radically different and never before seen intervention; there are still two main problems with your claim regarding Isaiah that atheists raise all the time. I am just curious if you know what they are?
 
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Jda016

Guest
You want me to say, if scientific investigations sometimes cause us to reinterpret our understanding, then maybe we should recognize our ideas on God might be wrong as well?

I think I know what the issue is. You perceive science as attacking your belief in God. So if you can show that science sometimes gets things wrong and has to reconsider previous ideas, then maybe it should also consider the possibility that the ideas within science, that you perceive as attacking God, are also wrong. God, then, should be considered as a possibility.

Am I close? Is this your thinking?
That is exactly what I am getting at! Thank you! I don't feel science attacks God though, in fact the more I learn about science the more I am amazed at God's creation.

my problem is not with the athiest saying that they "believe" God doesn't exist, my problem is them saying they "100% know" that God doesn't exist, because how could they know when science itself is continually changing as we discover new things.

if all missing links to macro evolution were found, and we knew where the energy and matter came from in order for the Big Bang to happen etc, then maybe it would be valid for athiests to say they know "100%" that God doesn't exist, but there are far too many holes, I think, for anyone to COMPLETELY rule out intelligent design.
 
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Jda016

Guest
Aside from the fact that the impregnation of young women by gods is nothing terribly new in antiquity, despite your claim that this is a radically different and never before seen intervention; there are still two main problems with your claim regarding Isaiah that atheists raise all the time. I am just curious if you know what they are?
While Christians believe in the virgin birth, I can see why any skeptic wouldn't, because it is non-verifiable. However there are many verifiable Prophecies in Scripture. One of the most remarkable was the predication of Israel becoming a nation again in 1948. The Bible predicted the year and simple math can prove it.

The Bible’s Most Amazing Prophecies :: Yeshua

if you are interested scroll down to the portion about "the Restoration of Israel."
 
Sep 14, 2013
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Self fulfilling prophecy.

Unless of course everyone just woke up that day and for no explicable reason decided suddenly that isreal would become a nation again.
 
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Jda016

Guest
Non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) is the view advocated by Stephen Jay Gould that science and religion each have “a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority,” and these two domains do not overlap.

What I did not know was that the National Academy of Sciences made a similar statement: “Scientists, like many others, are touched with awe at the order and complexity of nature. Indeed, many scientists are deeply religious. But science and religion occupy two separate realms of human experience. Demanding that they be combined detracts from the glory of each.” (see Wikipedia: Non-overlapping magisteria)
Man has managed to separate the Creator completely from His creation. I understand where Gould and the Academy of Science could come up with this, however I somehow remain deeply disturbed by it.
 
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Jda016

Guest
Self fulfilling prophecy.

Unless of course everyone just woke up that day and for no explicable reason decided suddenly that isreal would become a nation again.
How does one explain the specific date of 1948 after combining the years of Israel's punishment, hidden within the Bible, written over 2000 years ago? (From the article I previously posted here)

you don't even have to say it was God, I would be perfectly happy with an "I don't know." =)
 
Sep 14, 2013
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How does one explain the specific date of 1948 after combining the years of Israel's punishment, hidden within the Bible, written over 2000 years ago? (From the article I previously posted here)

you don't even have to say it was God, I would be perfectly happy with an "I don't know." =)
Were people aware of this information before it happened? If so... There's your answer.


If people weren't aware of this information then I don't know.
 
Jan 18, 2014
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That is exactly what I am getting at! Thank you! I don't feel science attacks God though, in fact the more I learn about science the more I am amazed at God's creation.

my problem is not with the athiest saying that they "believe" God doesn't exist, my problem is them saying they "100% know" that God doesn't exist, because how could they know when science itself is continually changing as we discover new things.

if all missing links to macro evolution were found, and we knew where the energy and matter came from in order for the Big Bang to happen etc, then maybe it would be valid for athiests to say they know "100%" that God doesn't exist, but there are far too many holes, I think, for anyone to COMPLETELY rule out intelligent design.
Hi JDA.

I don't think most atheists say the KNOW 100% that some form of universal intelligence could never exist. It's more a rejection of faith systems which imply 100% that such an intelligence exists let alone the fact that it communicated with the early people of earth and sent a biological avatar of itself to exist alongside us. Peoples objections to the questionable morality displayed throughout the bible which people claim to live their lives.

dP
 
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Jda016

Guest
Hi JDA.

I don't think most atheists say the KNOW 100% that some form of universal intelligence could never exist. It's more a rejection of faith systems which imply 100% that such an intelligence exists let alone the fact that it communicated with the early people of earth and sent a biological avatar of itself to exist alongside us. Peoples objections to the questionable morality displayed throughout the bible which people claim to live their lives.

dP
So if athiests were truly honest with themselves, wouldn't they be more agnostic than athiests?

Even Dawkins said that he was 99.99% sure that there is no God.....but doesn't that, by definition, make him agnostic, because he can't be 100% sure?
 
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Jan 18, 2014
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Even though I will always admit not knowing if there is or isn't a universal order or intelligence, everything I have seen demonstrated to date, every model tested and proven to date and most importantly, every logical instinct in my mind tells me that the Hebrew monotheist idea of an an interventionist deity is just wrong. We as a people on this planet are less insignificant on universal scale than even a single grain of sand in the combined deserts of the world. As to the comment of being Agnostic. That is equivalent of saying you are bisexual because you are 99.99% heterosexual. In many ways, being an atheist only requires the individual rejection of any supreme deities. After all, there plenty of people I know who call themselves theists who do not believe in every written word of their bible.
 
Sep 14, 2013
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So if athiests were truly honest with themselves, wouldn't they be more agnostic than athiests?

Even Dawkins said that he was 99.99% sure that there is no God.....but doesn't that, by definition, make him agnostic, because he can't be 100% sure?
Was this not answered already? Or are you hoping if you ask it enough times you'll get the answer you want to hear?
 
Aug 25, 2013
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So if athiests were truly honest with themselves, wouldn't they be more agnostic than athiests?
Isn’t an agnostic someone who is very uncertain?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

2: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>


If we look at the latter case atheists are typically very willing to commit to an opinion. I did know one fellow who always called himself an agnostic and who argued that the existence of God was unknowable. I think that is how he put it. He simply was unwilling to commit either way.

Individuals who call themselves atheists have typically resolved the matter in their own minds. Some might think it is impossible to state emphatically that no God exists, but as Dawkins says they believe God is very improbable and they live their lives on the assumption he is not there. Such a person cannot be described as an agnostic. As statement #1 says, an agnostic is one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God. The atheist is committed, and lives his life as if God does not exit.

I think that is the answer. Atheists are not agnostic.

I would ask you this: If most Christians can't claim absolute proof for the existence of God then shouldn't those Christians declare themselves agnostic on the question of God's existence? Also, unless you can prove to me that God exists, then shouldn't you declare yourself an agnostic?

You see, calling oneself either a Christian, or an atheist, is not about the ability to provide proof, it is only about commitment to what one believes, even in the absence of proof.
 
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phil112

Guest
...............................You see, calling oneself either a Christian, or an atheist, is not about the ability to provide proof, it is only about commitment to what one believes, even in the absence of proof.
I hope you never sit on a jury. If a credible eyewitness is the prosecutors main case, you would acquit. If you didn't see it, it must not have happened.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Indeed. And since the universe has a finite amount of matter moving away from itself at an accelerating rate of speed, eventually no biological life is possible (e.g. the Big Chill followed at some point by a Big Rip). God never designed the universe to be a permanent abode. He has much bigger and better plans for those who chose to enter the Kingdom of God/Heaven.

Astronomers have known since the 1920s that the universe was expanding
 
K

Kerry

Guest
No such thing as atheist. They belong with the term faggot which is a bundle of sticks and in some countries a cigarette. Meaning something that is to be burnt. Hell is waiting and Jesus is stretching out out His hand to save.
 
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TodayJunior

Guest
So if athiests were truly honest with themselves, wouldn't they be more agnostic than athiests?

Even Dawkins said that he was 99.99% sure that there is no God.....but doesn't that, by definition, make him agnostic, because he can't be 100% sure?
Most atheists are agnostic atheists.

Where's your source for the Dawkins claim?
 
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Jda016

Guest
Was this not answered already? Or are you hoping if you ask it enough times you'll get the answer you want to hear?
You answered that you 100% know God doesn't exist. I was curious if this stance was common or not among other athiests.
 
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Jda016

Guest
Most atheists are agnostic atheists.

Where's your source for the Dawkins claim?
"The God Delusion" by Dawkins page 51. Cycel told me this earlier in the discussion. I quoted him in post 686, I believe.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Isn’t an agnostic someone who is very uncertain?

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

2: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>


If we look at the latter case atheists are typically very willing to commit to an opinion. I did know one fellow who always called himself an agnostic and who argued that the existence of God was unknowable. I think that is how he put it. He simply was unwilling to commit either way.

Individuals who call themselves atheists have typically resolved the matter in their own minds. Some might think it is impossible to state emphatically that no God exists, but as Dawkins says they believe God is very improbable and they live their lives on the assumption he is not there. Such a person cannot be described as an agnostic. As statement #1 says, an agnostic is one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God. The atheist is committed, and lives his life as if God does not exit.

I think that is the answer. Atheists are not agnostic.

I would ask you this: If most Christians can't claim absolute proof for the existence of God then shouldn't those Christians declare themselves agnostic on the question of God's existence? Also, unless you can prove to me that God exists, then shouldn't you declare yourself an agnostic?

You see, calling oneself either a Christian, or an atheist, is not about the ability to provide proof, it is only about commitment to what one believes, even in the absence of proof.
That makes sense with regards to agnostics versus athiests.

So athiests believe there is no God, but can't be sure and agnostics believe that they simply can't be sure.

In regards to being Christian, or at least those who have truly encountered God, I would say that they can know for certain that He exists, because He revealed Himself to them. It is like meeting Mr. Smith from Zimbabwe. You know He exists, because you met him. However if you never met him, you could strongly believe he doesn't exist or just simply say you don't know if he exists.

Did you know there are many testimonies of Muslims converting to Christianity, because Christ revealed Himself to them in a dream? Dreams don't convert people from a religion, that in some countries, will kill them for that conversion unless they truly encountered God and could therefore say, I KNOW He is real.