Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[AgeofKnowledge]

In the natural, this is true. But you've made a false assertion in denying the supernatural simply because the natural exists. To deny the supernatural because of the existence of the natural is logically fallacious.

Simply because God isn't speaking to you right now after your rejection of Him does not equate to He isn't speaking to others seeking Him.

The truth is that He certainly does exist and speaks to a great many people. You're just not one of them because of your freewill choice to reject Him.

We dream about things we've witnessed, and dream about things we dwell upon. If you dwell upon God, Jesus, angels, devils, those are the things you will dream. It's no mystery.

 

[Jda016]

If I hear rapping at my door, but see no one on the other side I might interpret this as poltergeist activity.

How will I recognize God?

Hah, well if you are least willing to believe in something as supernatural as a poltergeist, then you would have to conclude that there actually IS something supernatural out there! I think that might be one step in the right direction....sort of =)


When God comes, you Know. It changes everything. Paul Washer, a somewhat famous preacher said, (long quote, but it is good).

Well, I was out here on the highway, and I was driving and I had a flat tire and I got out to change the tire, and when I was changing the tire, the lug nut fell off, and I wasn’t paying attention that I was on the middle of the highway, I stood up and there was a 30-ton logging truck going 120 miles an hour about ten yards in front of me, and it ran me over and that’s why I’m late.


Now, there would only be two…I know no one studies logic anymore, but there would only be two logical conclusions. One, I’m a liar or two, I’m a madman. You would say, “Brother Paul, it’s absolutely absurd. It is impossible, Brother Paul, to have an encounter with something as large as a logging truck and not be changed.”


And then my question would be to you — What is larger? A logging truck or God? How is it that so many people today profess to have had an encounter with Jesus Christ, and yet, they are not permanently changed?

So in answer to your question, you would k ow you had an encounter with God, because it would fundamentally change you.

 

[Jda016]

Michael Shermer has noted that devout Christians are often highly intelligent, creative people, and I've sometimes wondered if it is that propensity to creativity that makes you susceptible to seeing more than what is there? Just pointing out that you don't need to view our interest in you as an insult.

Haha, you make Christians seem like an animal to be studied! You sound like you have a very curious and exploratory nature. I understand, in part, why you would come here and talk with us. It is almost like a science expedition, it sounds like!

 

[Jda016]

A few mornings ago I woke from an unusual dream. I found myself at the creek where I had spent the better part of my childhood. Only instead of playing with friends I was set upon by lions. They were everywhere I turned. Every path I tried to take was blocked. There must have been 15 or 20 of them. Finally I found a path through the trees and ran to my childhood home where I found my mother and told her what happened. Then I woke.

What the hell had precipitated this dream! It made no sense. I thought about it for a while then I promptly forgot about it. Later, in the afternoon something jogged my memory and I recalled watching a video just before bed of an adolescent elephant trying to fend off an attack by a large pack of lions. The whole tragic affair (tragic for the elephant) had been filmed by a night vision camera. The lions feasted that night.

We dream about things we've witnessed, and dream about things we dwell upon. If you dwell upon God, Jesus, angels, devils, those are the things you will dream. It's no mystery. If you assume you are being contacted by supernatural forces as you sleep then you are no different, in that respect, from the pagan peoples of antiquity who made the same assumptions; but here's a question: Does God tell you things in your dream that are new to you? Are dreams places of revelation with an upper case 'R'? Can information be imparted to you in dreams that is totally revelatory to mankind. Can you acquire knowledge that the next Christian might not know, or is God only going to tell you things that you already know, and that can readily be found in scripture?

That is actually very interesting to me. I think dreams can have multiple levels. Sure you saw something about it the night before and attribute it to what you saw. I understand that you see nothing more than that. However when I hear your dream I interpret the lions as doubt, unbelief, and other demons sent to confuse and distract you (The devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour). You ran home and found safety with your mother, which I see is that the only safety you will find from these lions is running back to your childhood faith in Christ.

I know you will think this is absurd, but that is ok.

i would also like to point out the many dreams and visions people had BEFORE the Twin Towers fell here in the U.S. A google search can find numerous testimonies and that is just one tragic event in history. There are thousands of testimonies of people foreseeing an event in a vision or dream, even as Pharaoh had the dream of the 7 sickly cows devouring the 7 healthy ones, which Joseph interpreted to be the coming years of plenty and then famine.

science may be able to tell us HOW exactly dreams work, but Science can not always tell us the WHY.

I really do have a heart for those of you that are athiests. I really do pray for you. Perhaps that is why God has allowed such curiosity in your hearts for you to even be here, because you will be being prayed for where otherwise there might not be anyone to pray for you.

I know you have your many arguments against Christianity, but please see my sincerity as real and the great desire to see you saved is most real. It is not, because I need you to conform to my thinking to make myself feel better, it is because I have found a great treasure in a field, and a pearl of great price that I wish could be shared with you. My concern is out of love, a love that I don't even understand why I have sometimes, but it beats in my breast nevertheless for you.

 

[Cycel]

Haha, you make Christians seem like an animal to be studied! You sound like you have a very curious and exploratory nature. I understand, in part, why you would come here and talk with us. It is almost like a science expedition, it sounds like!

I enjoy the give and take of the discussion. I've tried out atheist forums, in fact that is where I went first, but it is difficult to have a captivating discussion when everyone agrees with you. You may not recognize this, but I do learn new things from yourself and others here.

 

[Jda016]

I enjoy the give and take of the discussion. I've tried out atheist forums, in fact that is where I went first, but it is difficult to have a captivating discussion when everyone agrees with you. You may not recognize this, but I do learn new things from yourself and others here.

Im glad. =) I learn a lot too. I always thought that if I talked with evolutionists that I would just get confused and doubt my faith, instead I find my faith and my joy grow even stronger through our discussions. It has help cement the fact that my faith is truly sincere.

 

[Cycel]

That is actually very interesting to me. I think dreams can have multiple levels. Sure you saw something about it the night before and attribute it to what you saw. I understand that you see nothing more than that. However when I hear your dream I interpret the lions as doubt, unbelief, and other demons sent to confuse and distract you (The devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour). You ran home and found safety with your mother, which I see is that the only safety you will find from these lions is running back to your childhood faith in Christ.

I know you will think this is absurd, but that is ok.

Actually, I think Freud would be impressed. Like Shermer said, top notch creative thinking. I don't agree, but I am impressed.

i would also like to point out the many dreams and visions people had BEFORE the Twin Towers fell here in the U.S. A google search can find numerous testimonies and that is just one tragic event in history. There are thousands of testimonies of people foreseeing an event in a vision or dream, even as Pharaoh had the dream of the 7 sickly cows devouring the 7 healthy ones, which Joseph interpreted to be the coming years of plenty and then famine.

I am familiar with the biblical account, but the twin towers dreams I had not heard of. Perhaps I should Google that as you suggest.

When it comes to this sort of thing I am very sceptical, but I know strange things do happen. I also know that we have to be wary about believing things people tell us. A very good friend of mine got into Scientology, and I almost blame myself, but that's another story. He tried to get me involved, and had the really cute blonde who lured him been there, when I went for my e-meter test, I might have joined as well. Some years later he stopped wearing glasses and told me it was the influence of Scientology on his person, but one day I discovered contact lens cleaning fluid in his washroom and the truth dawned. Even good friends will bend the truth when sufficiently motivated. I wouldn’t necessarily trust claims of strangers’ twin towers dreams.

science may be able to tell us HOW exactly dreams work, but Science can not always tell us the WHY.

Actually, I think they can tell us more than you realize. I read a very informative article some weeks back on the current research, and I think you might be very surprised by the findings. If I can locate it again I will see if I can forward you a copy.

I really do have a heart for those of you that are athiests. I really do pray for you. Perhaps that is why God has allowed such curiosity in your hearts for you to even be here, because you will be being prayed for where otherwise there might not be anyone to pray for you.

Well that last bit is certainly true enough, but it may have been curiosity that led me away in the first place.

I know you have your many arguments against Christianity, but please see my sincerity as real....

I do Jda, and I am touch, thank you.

 

[Cycel]

Im glad. =) I learn a lot too. I always thought that if I talked with evolutionists that I would just get confused and doubt my faith, instead I find my faith and my joy grow even stronger through our discussions. It has help cement the fact that my faith is truly sincere.

I am happy to be of service. (I take a bow. )

 

[phil112]

Okay, here is just one of the several miracles God has done for me. Not that you will believe it, but it is a true event, stated as it actually happened.

I am 58 now. 20 years ago I raced stock cars for a hobby. I was pretty good at it, too. I won a lot of races, and at different tracks. As a teenager I used to find a cop on friday and saturday night. When I found one where I liked, I would light up my back tires just so he would chase me. No lie. Never got caught. I have driven from my home in Shawnee Oklahoma to Big Pine key Fla. Twice. Straight thru. 1600 miles. I have driven to many NASCAR races the same way. Never had a wreck. I said that not to brag, but to give some inkling of my ability behind the wheel.

Had a buddy call me one winter afternoon about 20 years ago. Said his IH scout wouldn't start, and me being a mechanic, would I come look at it for him? Broad daylight, cloudy, snow and ice on the roads. Okay, I said, got directions and headed that way. About halfway there I went around a tight curve on a newly paved asphalt road. Going to fast, about 40mph. The curve was iced over and when I entered it, I lost the feeling of the road. What that means is the steering wheel is transmitting nothing. I was headed for a gate post that was maybe 8 inches. Big post, and I could see it tearing heck out of the front end of my pickup. I touched the brakes and the effect was the wrong one. I turned the steering wheel and it had zero effect. It seemed like this 2 or 3 seconds was taking 5 minutes to elapse. Knowing there was nothing I could do, I said: "Lord I can do nothing. It is in your hands. Please help me."
Let me remind you, I know how to drive. I know if I am going to hit something or miss something. I had physical encounters every weekend just of that sort on the race track.

With absolutely no sensation of movement, nothing happened that was visible, and in a blink of an eye my pickup was headed to the ditch 5 feet from where it would have impacted. I went into the ditch, maintained my composure, and drove on out of it. God moved my pickup 5 feet. Just like that. Sounds preposterous, doesn't it? It happened. I was there. I was sober. I wasn't high, and I was in my right mind.

Reflecting on that event, I have come to realize that me admitting to God it was in His hands, and that I could do nothing, that surrender to His might and power was exactly what He wants from us and that is why He did what He did. In that moment I humbled myself before Him and He rewarded me.

That is proof from an eyewitness. That testimony would hold up in court. Yet you will reject it. If you heard a junkie testify on the witness stand that he saw someone pull the trigger, you would accept his testimony, but me being an honest and upright man, you will reject.

 

[mustaphadrink]

In the natural, this is true. But you've made a false assertion in denying the supernatural simply because the natural exists. To deny the supernatural because of the existence of the natural is logically fallacious.

Simply because God isn't speaking to you right now after your rejection of Him does not equate to He isn't speaking to others seeking Him.

The truth is that He certainly does exist and speaks to a great many people. You're just not one of them because of your freewill choice to reject Him.

You have to wonder at the logic of atheists don't you. I don't want you. You don't exist. Your the fairy in the sky. A figment of people's imagination. Why isn't God speaking to me if he exists?

Why would God want to speak to someone who believes he does not exist? Why shatter their religious belief? God is not going to say "you listen to me whether you like it or not." Why would an atheist want a God who he does not believes exist to speak to him? Atheists have made their bed so they have to lie in it.

The fact is, atheists have decided God does not exist and no amount of proof is going to change their mind as they have, in making such a decision become openly rebellious against God.

They don't want to know the truth as it will mean that they cannot be rebellious and they will have to give up control of their lives but they don't want to do that, even if it means that what they get in exchange is much better.

Bearing in mind what Jesus offers when we are born again it is so true what the bible says that a fool says in his heart there is no God and the only people who do not realise this are the fools themselves.

 

[nl]

I am happy to be of service. (I take a bow. )

Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (Romans 13:7 NIV)

Glory to God in the highest... (Luke 2:14)

But, let there be honor where honor is due. .

Cycel, thank you for engaging a variety of challenges and making multiple edifying contributions to the discussion.

Although the stories and contexts are very different, I'm reminded of the improbable success in battle when outnumbered of Samson (Judges 15:7ff) and David's friend, Jonathan (1 Samuel 14:4 ff).

Thank you, Void, DeepThought and others too (professing believers and unbelievers both) for edifying others in conversation here.

 

[nl]

>>Many other fulfilled prophecies might be quoted. In the last chapter of Daniel an interesting prediction is made concerning the time of the end. “Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Sir Isaac Newton, the discoverer of the law of gravitation, wrote on Daniel and expressed his belief that some day people would travel at the rate of fifty miles an hour. The French infidel Voltaire many years later laughed at Newton’s statement and held it up to ridicule.

The time of the end is here and the prophecy of Dan. 12:4 has come true.

In the New Testament are also written prophecies which are now in process of fulfillment. 1 Tim. 4:1, 2; 2 Tim. 3:1–5; 4:1–3; 2 Pet. 2; Jude’s Epistle, and other Scriptures predict the present day apostasy.<<

Gaebelein, Arno C. [1861-1945] Fulfilled Prophecy: A Potent Argument for the Inspiration of the Bible (p. 32). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

There is an apostasy among professing Christians that was predicted in New Testament prophecies cited above. Following the examples of the many varieties of professing Christians can lead to confusion and disappointments. There are many accounts that could be followed on social media. There is only one person whom we all need to follow. Jesus said: Follow me (Luke 9:23).

 

[IntoTheVoid]

Okay, here is just one of the several miracles God has done for me. Not that you will believe it, but it is a true event, stated as it actually happened.

I am 58 now. 20 years ago I raced stock cars for a hobby. I was pretty good at it, too. I won a lot of races, and at different tracks. As a teenager I used to find a cop on friday and saturday night. When I found one where I liked, I would light up my back tires just so he would chase me. No lie. Never got caught. I have driven from my home in Shawnee Oklahoma to Big Pine key Fla. Twice. Straight thru. 1600 miles. I have driven to many NASCAR races the same way. Never had a wreck. I said that not to brag, but to give some inkling of my ability behind the wheel.

Had a buddy call me one winter afternoon about 20 years ago. Said his IH scout wouldn't start, and me being a mechanic, would I come look at it for him? Broad daylight, cloudy, snow and ice on the roads. Okay, I said, got directions and headed that way. About halfway there I went around a tight curve on a newly paved asphalt road. Going to fast, about 40mph. The curve was iced over and when I entered it, I lost the feeling of the road. What that means is the steering wheel is transmitting nothing. I was headed for a gate post that was maybe 8 inches. Big post, and I could see it tearing heck out of the front end of my pickup. I touched the brakes and the effect was the wrong one. I turned the steering wheel and it had zero effect. It seemed like this 2 or 3 seconds was taking 5 minutes to elapse. Knowing there was nothing I could do, I said: "Lord I can do nothing. It is in your hands. Please help me."
Let me remind you, I know how to drive. I know if I am going to hit something or miss something. I had physical encounters every weekend just of that sort on the race track.

With absolutely no sensation of movement, nothing happened that was visible, and in a blink of an eye my pickup was headed to the ditch 5 feet from where it would have impacted. I went into the ditch, maintained my composure, and drove on out of it. God moved my pickup 5 feet. Just like that. Sounds preposterous, doesn't it? It happened. I was there. I was sober. I wasn't high, and I was in my right mind.

Reflecting on that event, I have come to realize that me admitting to God it was in His hands, and that I could do nothing, that surrender to His might and power was exactly what He wants from us and that is why He did what He did. In that moment I humbled myself before Him and He rewarded me.

That is proof from an eyewitness. That testimony would hold up in court. Yet you will reject it. If you heard a junkie testify on the witness stand that he saw someone pull the trigger, you would accept his testimony, but me being an honest and upright man, you will reject.

I don't doubt you believe that's what happened. But incidents like this always beg the question...

Why would god do that for you while at the same time allowing millions in the third world to die of starvation and AIDS?

I'm not challenging your testimony, I just wonder why god is selective.

 

[Simona25]

I don't doubt you believe that's what happened. But incidents like this always beg the question...

Why would god do that for you while at the same time allowing millions in the third world to die of starvation and AIDS?

I'm not challenging your testimony, I just wonder why god is selective.

God is not selective. We are all going to die sooner or later. How do you know that those persons from the third worlds never felt God's love? Do you have God's angle or God's perspective?

Your question reminded me of the hypocritical concern that Judas Iscariote had for the poors, when the woman spent money on an expensive perfume to anoint Jesus Christ's head and feet.

John 12, 3-8:
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.


Not saying that you are hypocritical, like Judas, but this "concern" about the millions that die in Africa, when it's being enunciated from behind a computer, from the warmth of your bed or couch, while you are drinking your coffee etc., this concern is very dubious.
When you have almost died, you do not ask God "why did you save me, but not those from Africa?", just like the one in Africa, when he is saved from being eaten by a lyon, he does not ask God "why did you save me, but not the millions of americans that die in car accidents?". When we almost died, we only thank God that He gave us a second chance to this very short life. It's not death that we should be afraid of, but the state in which death finds us...

 

[phil112]

I don't doubt you believe that's what happened. But incidents like this always beg the question...

Why would god do that for you while at the same time allowing millions in the third world to die of starvation and AIDS?

I'm not challenging your testimony, I just wonder why god is selective.

You won't accept my answer, so you should ask God.
What we perceive as torment and hardship, sorrow and angst, is nothing. Measure where you are today against eternity. I want to live forever and never suffer again. Is there anything that can be done by me to deserve such a future? No. Can I have it? Yes. What is 100 years of trouble compared against a million, no wait, a billion, no wait, even more than that....eternity? I submit to you it is nothing. What people are going thru in other countries, in the slums of our own country, in our back yards, is ugly. God knows why. And I am confident if you knew all circumstances, you would find satan behind it all. Do little ones suffer? Yes. What is their reward? Eternal life without pain or sorrow. The reason God did that for me is simply because I humbled myself and acknowledged Him as the only one who was able to help. Believe me, no believe God, the reward is worth much more than anything we could possibly ever pay here on earth.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[deepthought]

Firstly thank you JDA and NL for you kind words. This epitomises the reasoning of my coming here. For good intellectual debate and a giggle every now and then. I am a teacher myself and frequently say to my students that the best teachers never stop learning. That is why others and myself prefer to converse and debate with passionate, educated people like yourselves. I am not going to convert any of you any more than anyone on here could convert me to a theist but regardless of religious beliefs, civilisation should always question the status quo and vox popular which, when done so in a reasonable manner, can lead to a greater confidence in those beliefs. Any person from either side of the fence who says they have never had a single doubt is being dishonest with themselves and others. So long may this debate continue

 

[JesusLives]

Just want to leave you with a devotional thought before I head out to church.

Isaiah 55: 6&7 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And for our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Wishing you all a Happy Sabbath

 

[IntoTheVoid]

You won't accept my answer, so you should ask God.
What we perceive as torment and hardship, sorrow and angst, is nothing. Measure where you are today against eternity. I want to live forever and never suffer again. Is there anything that can be done by me to deserve such a future? No. Can I have it? Yes. What is 100 years of trouble compared against a million, no wait, a billion, no wait, even more than that....eternity? I submit to you it is nothing. What people are going thru in other countries, in the slums of our own country, in our back yards, is ugly. God knows why. And I am confident if you knew all circumstances, you would find satan behind it all. Do little ones suffer? Yes. What is their reward? Eternal life without pain or sorrow. The reason God did that for me is simply because I humbled myself and acknowledged Him as the only one who was able to help. Believe me, no believe God, the reward is worth much more than anything we could possibly ever pay here on earth.

I can accept that a reasonable answer from your perspective. I wasn't having a go at anyone. Just wondered how you viewed it.

 

[Cycel]

If I hear rapping at my door, but see no one on the other side I might interpret this as poltergeist activity.

How will I recognize God?

Hah, well if you are least willing to believe in something as supernatural as a poltergeist, then you would have to conclude that there actually IS something supernatural out there! I think that might be one step in the right direction....sort of =)

I did once believe in ghosts, you know. The fact is back when I believed in God I also believed in ghosts. While I lost the belief in God I retained the belief in ghosts. I read quite a lot of books about ghosts and I believed what those authors wrote. Why did I believe their claims? Why? – because I wanted to believe in an afterlife, of course. I was seeking evidence for my belief and found it primarily in Hans Holzer's books, many of which I own, along with a smattering of other authors.

I won't at this time go into why I lost that belief in ghosts, but it evaporated like a spectre when I was twenty-five. Looking back at Holzer's writings as a sceptic I can see that he didn't actually provide any substantial evidence for his claims, which were, by the way, quite extraordinary. I have never encountered any really good reason since that time to believe in ghosts. I will admit that some of the claims, such as those for Near Death Experiences look good on the surface, but must note that real evidence is not forthcoming. The stories presented as proof are not the substantiation of NDE beliefs, they are the claims that require substantiation – see the difference?

When God comes, you Know. It changes everything. Paul Washer, a somewhat famous preacher said, (long quote, but it is good).

... Now, there would only be two…I know no one studies logic anymore, but there would only be two logical conclusions. One, I’m a liar or two, I’m a madman. You would say, “Brother Paul, it’s absolutely absurd. It is impossible, Brother Paul, to have an encounter with something as large as a logging truck and not be changed.”

And then my question would be to you — What is larger? A logging truck or God? How is it that so many people today profess to have had an encounter with Jesus Christ, and yet, they are not permanently changed?

So in answer to your question, you would k ow you had an encounter with God, because it would fundamentally change you.

I’ve never been hit by a logging truck and neither was Paul Washer; and if Washer thinks he was hit by an encounter with God, well that’s fine for him to say that, but it is no better than Hans Holzer claiming to have seen numerous ghosts. Washer’s claim is not the substantiation of his faith, it is the claim that needs substantiation.

Personal, internal experiences that others cannot observe do not provide substantiation of faith claims, so I can’t use Paul Washer’s experience to help buttress a belief I don’t share. The claim of Matthew and Luke is that God is like a shepherd who cares more for the missing members of his flock than he does for those who are not lost. God, Jesus tells us, is like the shepherd who will not cease looking for his lost sheep until he has found it, and there will be more rejoicing in Heaven over finding this one lost soul than for the hundred that are not lost (Matt 18:12 ff, and Luke 15:3 ff). Yet it is not surprising, I am frequently told, that God has not shown himself to me because I don’t believe in him. The true shepherd does not care what the sheep thinks of him, he only wants to retrieve his lost sheep.

If there is no God, then it doesn’t matter whether I believe or not, but it will still matter to believers who think God is not reaching out because we atheists don’t believe he exists; but even when I did believe and sought the Spirit to provide lasting confirmation (ie. I was looking to get hit by Washer’s logging truck), still there was no intervention. I can either accept Believers accusations that the fault is mine, or I can relent and say, ‘Well, maybe I was wrong to believe.’ If there is a God I accept that he can make me believe, I can also accept that he can choose to reveal himself, but I don’t accept that scripture counts as that revelation. Scripture is not the substantiation of belief in God, it is the claim that requires substantiation.

 

[Cycel]

With absolutely no sensation of movement, nothing happened that was visible, and in a blink of an eye my pickup was headed to the ditch 5 feet from where it would have impacted. I went into the ditch, maintained my composure, and drove on out of it. God moved my pickup 5 feet. Just like that. Sounds preposterous, doesn't it? It happened. I was there. I was sober. I wasn't high, and I was in my right mind.

I don't understand what you are describing. You seem to be saying you lost control on an icy patch of road, your vehicle went into the ditch, you remained calm, and somehow your pickup then left the ditch with you in control. I don't see a miracle. I see a lucky break, but nothing supernatural. What am I missing?