Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[Malcyboy]

All i am gonna say it is so sad that there is a world out there dying spiritually, and here we all are sitting here arguing musical instruments in a worship service. Do you know something, let us look at the bible: The bible neither in the OT or the NT specifically condemns instrumental accompniament, now you can try to argue "does the bible have to specifically condemn it if it states regularly to sing?" Yes the Word should in fact condemn it, why? cause the bible has made specifically clear that certain acts are wrong, lets take sex: Sex with animals is sin, homosexual acts are sin, withholding sex from your spouse is sin, even illicit sexual fantasies are now sin for the NT believer! If the bible is so specific and clear about such perverse and private matters, if musical accompaniment is truly such a horrific and sinful act, God, through of His apostles, would have made it perfectly clear that we should NEVER EVER use musical instruments, especially in something so public and common.

To the person that said "just cause you have a gift doesn't mean you should use it for worship" what about the scripture that states (paraphrasing here) to do everything you do as unto Christ?? So when you play piano, should you purposefully not do it unto Christ? God has given people gifts for His pleasure, not for secular earthly pleasure. I do not come and say music is of the utmost importance in worship, surely not!! however it is by no means condemned

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." 1 Corinthians 10:23

Now lets look at this in context, music instruments are a biblical foggy zone: the bible does not say THOU SHALL or THOU SHALL NOT to the use of instrumental accompaniment. So as Paul (the lead author of the majority of the NT writings) has never made any specific unction towards the use of it, we can safely say that musical instruments are permissible but perhaps not in any way beneficial.

 

[SeaBass]

i will believe the bible and what it says about praising God with all kinds of instruments, and not a lot of unsubstantiated claims.

Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
(Psalm 150:4)

If you hold David's worship up to me an example that I am to follow, should I also offer burnt offerings and animal sacrifices as David did, Psa 66:13-15? If not why? Can I also practice polygamy as David did? If not, why?

What verse says David and the OT law dictates how CHRIST'S NT gospel church is to worship?

 

[posthuman]

If you hold David's worship up to me an example that I am to follow, should I also offer burnt offerings and animal sacrifices as David did, Psa 66:13-15? If not why? Can I also practice polygamy as David did? If not, why?

What verse says David and the OT law dictates how CHRIST'S NT gospel church is to worship?

Christ pretty clearly put an end to sacrifices.
you can't show me that Christ put an end to music.

 

[SeaBass]

All i am gonna say it is so sad that there is a world out there dying spiritually, and here we all are sitting here arguing musical instruments in a worship service. Do you know something, let us look at the bible: The bible neither in the OT or the NT specifically condemns instrumental accompniament, now you can try to argue "does the bible have to specifically condemn it if it states regularly to sing?" Yes the Word should in fact condemn it, why? cause the bible has made specifically clear that certain acts are wrong, lets take sex: Sex with animals is sin, homosexual acts are sin, withholding sex from your spouse is sin, even illicit sexual fantasies are now sin for the NT believer! If the bible is so specific and clear about such perverse and private matters, if musical accompaniment is truly such a horrific and sinful act, God, through of His apostles, would have made it perfectly clear that we should NEVER EVER use musical instruments, especially in something so public and common.

To the person that said "just cause you have a gift doesn't mean you should use it for worship" what about the scripture that states (paraphrasing here) to do everything you do as unto Christ?? So when you play piano, should you purposefully not do it unto Christ? God has given people gifts for His pleasure, not for secular earthly pleasure. I do not come and say music is of the utmost importance in worship, surely not!! however it is by no means condemned

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." 1 Corinthians 10:23

Now lets look at this in context, music instruments are a biblical foggy zone: the bible does not say THOU SHALL or THOU SHALL NOT to the use of instrumental accompaniment. So as Paul (the lead author of the majority of the NT writings) has never made any specific unction towards the use of it, we can safely say that musical instruments are permissible but perhaps not in any way beneficial.

The world is dying out there for it will not obey God and do as God said and threfore is lost in disobedience/unrighteousness. If I do not have to do as God says when it comes to singing, then why should I, or the world, have to follow or do anything God said?


If I have a gift to make idols out of gold and silver,thenI should make idols to be worshipped?


1 Cor 10:23 has to do with matters of expediency not matters of law. When God commanded singing that is law and not a matter of expediency.

 

[KSublett]

we're the temple of the Lord now; the Spirit indwells us where before the Shekinah descended on the temple. if a harp and a lyre were used in the old temple, why can't a man or a woman indwelt by the Spirit use a harp or a lyre?

When the Shekinah filled the temple with glory, Kabod or HEAVINESS and DARKNESS the priests were disabled and no Levite singer or instrument player was ever allowed to even get close to these now DISABLED places because God had abandoned the Jews to worship the starry host. Whatever they called Jehovha, Amos and Acts gives us the names of the ones they worshipped.

First, if you read Acts 7 you will discover that God "turned Israel over to worship the starry host" because of Instrumental Idolatry at Mount Sinai. He sentenced them to captivity and death in Assyria and Babylon. God made them bilnd and deaf so that they could not READ the Word nor HEAR the Word when the command was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word. The elders "fired" God and He gave them kings in His anger and began to carry out sending the people into captivity: they lost their claim to Judah (a small part of Canaan) and would be blind and deaf to the Word until they turned to Christ. Read 2 Corinthians 3.

God did not command king, kingdom, temple, animal slaughter nor the Levites as a "Musical Worship Team." The Levites were to stand in ranks and execute any civillian who came near or into any of their Babylonish holy places. The Levites performed as Soothsayers or Sorcerers with instruments. In Hezekiah's plague stopping bargain with God the Levite musicians could not enter into the Holy Place even to carry out the garbage.

Christ the Rock ordained the Synagogue, Ekklesia or Church in the wilderness: when they were settled in the land the common people were quarantined to their local and isolated settlements unable to travel. There, the Qahal or Church was defined:

INCLUSIVELY of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word delivered from Moses.
EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric: we don't play games or make music when we assemble to hear from God.

Further, there is no command, example or remote inference of God needing people to sing as a group with or without instruments from Genesis to Revelation. God is not so petty that He can be attracted by human talent which is the WORKS OF HUMAN HANDS.

Remember the Nadab and Abihu story: Well, Hebrews 12 said for those who do not come before God in reverence and godly fear, God is a consuming fire.

Num 18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister BEFORE the tabernacle of witness. [never IN]

H8334 sharath shaw-rath' A primitive root; to attend as a menial or worshipper; figuratively to contribute to:--minister (unto), (do) serve (-ant, -ice, -itor), wait on. Num 18:3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle:
only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar,
that neither they, nor ye also, die.

The Levites made exorcising NOISES in the slaughter pit where music from mystery did and does mean as confirmed by modern science: to Make the Lambs Dumb before the Slaughter.

Sacrificial musical disablers were called parasites in the Greek language. The Heretic was the slaughter priest who Lifted Up the Lambs to cut their throats.

 

[posthuman]

Further, there is no command, example or remote inference of God needing people to sing as a group with or without instruments from Genesis to Revelation.

so... the Psalms aren't part of the scripture? Colossians? Ephesians?
are you familiar with the traditional way in which the Feast of Tabernacles is observed?

God is not so petty that He can be attracted by human talent which is the WORKS OF HUMAN HANDS.

is that what you think you are doing when you sing?

 

[posthuman]

KSublett ,

if you would be kind enough to respond to posts 351, 353, 384 and 393, i think you've made an absolute butchery of exegesis responding to me before, so i don't feel like i ought to take anything further that you say without a great deal of skepticism until you can explain why your previous conversation appears so warped.

 

[Shava]

All i am gonna say it is so sad that there is a world out there dying spiritually, and here we all are sitting here arguing musical instruments in a worship service. Do you know something, let us look at the bible: The bible neither in the OT or the NT specifically condemns instrumental accompniament, now you can try to argue "does the bible have to specifically condemn it if it states regularly to sing?" Yes the Word should in fact condemn it, why? cause the bible has made specifically clear that certain acts are wrong, lets take sex: Sex with animals is sin, homosexual acts are sin, withholding sex from your spouse is sin, even illicit sexual fantasies are now sin for the NT believer! If the bible is so specific and clear about such perverse and private matters, if musical accompaniment is truly such a horrific and sinful act, God, through of His apostles, would have made it perfectly clear that we should NEVER EVER use musical instruments, especially in something so public and common.

To the person that said "just cause you have a gift doesn't mean you should use it for worship" what about the scripture that states (paraphrasing here) to do everything you do as unto Christ?? So when you play piano, should you purposefully not do it unto Christ? God has given people gifts for His pleasure, not for secular earthly pleasure. I do not come and say music is of the utmost importance in worship, surely not!! however it is by no means condemned

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." 1 Corinthians 10:23

Now lets look at this in context, music instruments are a biblical foggy zone: the bible does not say THOU SHALL or THOU SHALL NOT to the use of instrumental accompaniment. So as Paul (the lead author of the majority of the NT writings) has never made any specific unction towards the use of it, we can safely say that musical instruments are permissible but perhaps not in any way beneficial.

Singing is what God commands It's a very big deal on how we worship God our Father, our creator. This is such a big deal that God has commanded us to sing only, and for a very good reason. Being spiritual to the absolute would command singing only because he is wanting his creation to use their spirit, not any manmade instruments which does nothing but take away from the spiritual closeness that can only be achieved. Ephesians 5:19, and Colossians 3;16

 

[watcher2013]

This is off topic from this thread. If you would like to start another thread on this topic, I will pariticpate in it as time permits me.

The questioned was in the first placed not addressed to you, for your lack of understanding.
Unfortunately you responded...
Even if you have time...you do not have the understanding...so don't bother.

 

[Malcyboy]

The world is dying out there for it will not obey God and do as God said and threfore is lost in disobedience/unrighteousness. If I do not have to do as God says when it comes to singing, then why should I, or the world, have to follow or do anything God said?


If I have a gift to make idols out of gold and silver,thenI should make idols to be worshipped?


1 Cor 10:23 has to do with matters of expediency not matters of law. When God commanded singing that is law and not a matter of expediency.

The gift your discussing wouldn't be a gift to make idols, it would be a gift to be good with your hands, i.e. metal-work, carpentry, glasswork... a carpenter or glassworker CAN make you a podium from which the word of God is read, or he could make you an idol at which someone could worship.... your argument is invalid

You are simply like the israelites who wandered the desert...You keep going round the same place in a circle...we are not discussing singing here! we are discussing musical accompaniment, which is neither said is yes or no. It is not a sin as it is never mentioned as such and God is very very clear on what is sin and what is not, so unless you can provide me scripture showing it is sin to use musical instruments, I will continue to worship God as I am lead to in my spirit by His Holy Spirit. I can sing without music and i can sing with music, either way my heart is set on God in worship, and I know He is pleased. so continue arguing this, I have tried to convey the truth of the scriptures to you but your heart is set on the interpretation of men, so continue that way but I pray you would seek the truth.

 

[posthuman]

First, if you read Acts 7 you will discover that God "turned Israel over to worship the starry host" because of Instrumental Idolatry at Mount Sinai.

if you read Acts 7 without adding anything to the Word of God that God hasn't said, you'll discover that it says absolutely nothing about instrumental music.

 

[dcontroversal]

Christ pretty clearly put an end to sacrifices.
you can't show me that Christ put an end to music.

They can when they use scripture out of context to say something and teach truths that have nothing to do with biblical worship...specifically Ephesians and Colossians......

 

[dcontroversal]

Re: Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship

Re: Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship

Lets take this obtrusive reasoning to a whole new level...you say that the bible doesn't say to use musical instruments in way of worship, because it is not found explicitly in the N.T.?....RIGHT?

Do you have a church building that you worship in?.....Show me scripture that tells us to build church buildings in the N.T.
Do You pass a plate for money (offering).....which verses command us to (pass the plate)....quote if you will!
Do you have any programs and or the American flag or so called Christian flag flying in your (non called for church building)
what scriptures do you use to justify the flags if you have them or the programs
Do you put up ex Pagan idols in celebration of the Birth of Christ as in trees and lights? Read Jeremiah 10 and then justify the tree if you use it.....or show me scriptures....

Your reasoning is flawed and your religion was started by a man whose last name was not Christ!

There are multitudes of things that ALL CHURCHES do that are not found explicitly in scriptures and yet are biblical as God allows boundaries within the word of God and as long as we remain within the boundaries we are acceptable unto Jesus!

Re: Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship

1449770]The bible commands singing, which has no need for musical instruments to be explicitly noticed in the N.T. Christmas is a man made day to celebrate Christ in which isn't authorized. Celebrating Christmas as a Santa Claus day is what I believe in, so trees are fine to put your gifts to exchange to one another. Church buildings are a necessity in today's society due to the amount of functions that can be performed in a church, such as preachers office, library, baptismal, different classrooms for different ages, meetings, and on and on There's a big difference between an aid and an addition.[/QUOTE]

Really...talk about double talk and hypocrisy hahah wow!....SHOW ME SCRIPTURES IN THE N.T. THAT TEACHES US THAT WE NEED CHURCH BUILDINGS TO WORSHIP GOD IN.......your hilarious and you are applying a double standard here which is obvious....Jesus didn't need a church building and he ministered just fine to the 5000 and 4000 without the above...

What a double standard.....

AID and ADDITION....whether building or instrument they are one and the same to aid and or in addition of singing....in aid or addition to for a capacity to worship...

​

 

[KSublett]

KSublett ,

if you would be kind enough to respond to posts 351, 353, 384 and 393, i think you've made an absolute butchery of exegesis responding to me before, so i don't feel like i ought to take anything further that you say without a great deal of skepticism until you can explain why your previous conversation appears so warped.

HERE IS 393. I have to be cryptic but I provide links. Click on this link soph-izō ,

This will give you an exhaustive way in which words are used as well as links to the actual Greek or Latin texts where the word is used. Jesus said that God HIDES from the wise or Sophists. If you cannot EXCLUDE any of the definitions you probably should not add that as an act of liturgy.

2 Timothy 3:15] From infancy, you have known the sacred writings which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus.

Sophia (Wisdom as the Jews Logos or Holy Spirit) contradicts LOGOS:

Aristodemus meeting Socrates smartly attired expresses his surprise at so unusual a circumstance. Socrates explains that being invited to dine with Agathon he feels bound to go “in finery to the fine”; and he presses Aristodemus, although uninvited, to accompany him. On the road Socrates, immersed in thought, lags behind, and Aristodemus arrives at Agathon's alone. Not till they are half-way through the meal does Socrates appear; and Agathon rallies him on his devotion to sophia.
......The proposal of Pausanias to restrict the potations, in view of yesterday's banquet,
......and that of Eryximachus to dismiss the flute-girl and amuse themselves bylogoi, are unanimously agreed to.

 

[Genlivin4him247]

That is totally wrong. None of the gifts ceased and they are placed and given to true followers of the Lord to this very day. I have personally experienced them as well have see them in others and I also have seen the Work of the Holy Spirit that no one would ever be able to deny.

 

[Alligator]

This is off topic from this thread. If you would like to start another thread on this topic, I will pariticpate in it as time permits me.

The questioned was in the first placed not addressed to you, for your lack of understanding.
Unfortunately you responded...
Even if you have time...you do not have the understanding...so don't bother.

LOL are you kidding or just trying to be "cute"? He would eat you alive

 

[posthuman]

here's an excerpt from your original post:

2Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

CUNNING FABLES are soph-izō , A.make wise, instruct. Wise in Mousa , Dios [Zeus, Jupiter, Pluto, Hades, . Beelbōsōros, aigiokhoio thugateres” Il.2.491,
II. mousa, as Appellat., music, song, “m. stugera” [DAUGHTERS ALWAYS] A.Eu.308 (anap.); “euphamos” Id.Supp.695 (lyr.); “kanakhan .[CLANGING BRASS] . theias antiluron [LYRE, GUITAR] mousas” S.Tr.643 (lyr.); “Aiakō moisan pherein”[A LADED BURDEN]

the first bit - that "sophizo" is properly translated, there is no question.

but then you say:

Wise in Mousa , Dios [Zeus, Jupiter, Pluto, Hades, . Beelbōsōros, aigiokhoio thugateres” Il.2.491,
II. mousa, as Appellat., music, song, “m. stugera” [DAUGHTERS ALWAYS] A.Eu.308 (anap.); “euphamos” Id.Supp.695 (lyr.); “kanakhan .[CLANGING BRASS] . theias antiluron [LYRE, GUITAR] mousas” S.Tr.643 (lyr.); “Aiakō moisan pherein”[A LADED BURDEN]

and none of this has anything to do with the meaning of the word "sophizo"
you don't even tell us where this comes from. you put your pagan source up there next to a quote from the Bible as though it somehow belongs.
i tried to point that out,
then you reply here like this:

HERE IS 393. I have to be cryptic but I provide links. Click on this link soph-izō ,

This will give you an exhaustive way in which words are used as well as links to the actual Greek or Latin texts where the word is used. Jesus said that God HIDES from the wise or Sophists. If you cannot EXCLUDE any of the definitions you probably should not add that as an act of liturgy.

2 Timothy 3:15] From infancy, you have known the sacred writings which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus.

Sophia (Wisdom as the Jews Logos or Holy Spirit) contradicts LOGOS:

Aristodemus meeting Socrates smartly attired expresses his surprise at so unusual a circumstance. Socrates explains that being invited to dine with Agathon he feels bound to go “in finery to the fine”; and he presses Aristodemus, although uninvited, to accompany him. On the road Socrates, immersed in thought, lags behind, and Aristodemus arrives at Agathon's alone. Not till they are half-way through the meal does Socrates appear; and Agathon rallies him on his devotion to sophia.
......The proposal of Pausanias to restrict the potations, in view of yesterday's banquet,
......and that of Eryximachus to dismiss the flute-girl and amuse themselves bylogoi, are unanimously agreed to.

by quoting Plato.

who is Plato?
does Plato teach Christians how to worship?

how about we quote the rest of that passage instead of just pulling a few lines out of it:

"Then Eryximachus propounds an idea of Phaedrus, that Eros is the best possible theme for encomia, and suggests that each of the party in turn, commencing with Phaedrus, should now deliver an encomium on Eros. This suggestion is applauded by Socrates."

should Christians "deliver an enconium on Eros" ?

are you suggesting we engage in blatant idolatry? because the sources you're quoting sure do.

stick to the bible please, and don't mix in paganism. or are you trying to show us that it's necessary to quote idolatrous, pagan works in order to dismiss music as a permissible form of worship?

if i just "guess" at why you "need to be cryptic" i wonder if i'll be correct, hmm?

 

[KSublett]

I someone gave you a Greek New Testament you couldn't understand it without the Greek Scholars. I suspect that preachers have a copy of the Greek-English lexicon and dictionary which Paul used. It would help if you would explain who it is that God HIDES from:

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit [HIS], and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth,
that thou hast HID these things from the WISE and PRUDENT, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Please don't use your lexicon: that is not in the Scriptures. And certainly don't use Webster's

 

[KSublett]

Click on this link to soph-izō , those who are interested should see how the word is USED in the Greek Texts and try to grasp that men like Paul learned His Greek from grammar school and not the Bible. Therefore, when the Bible uses words we should be honored that each disciple can now do their own "seminar" work. These words include ANYTHING that is made or composed or performed by human hands: God simply cannot use anything we make or perform. I blush for God when people do all of those antics which they would never do for the boss to get a raise: people see God as about their size and a bit smarter. It is repugnant to try to grasp God in terms of our own likes and immaturity.

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
​

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit [HIS], and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast HID these things from the WISE and PRUDENT, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight

There is only ONE GOD [Theos] THE FATHER. God made Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord [Kurios] and Christ

apokruptō , hide or keep back from one, 2. hide from sight, keep hidden, conceal,

Job 3:23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?

2 Kings 4.27 When she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught hold of his feet. Gehazi came near to thrust her away; but the man of God said, Let her alone: for her soul is vexed within her; and Yahweh has hid it from me, and has not told me.

sophos , ē, on, A.skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, Margites Fr.2; but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113; enkitharas. E.IT1238 (lyr.), cf. Ar.Ra.896 (lyr.), etc.; tēntekhnēn -ōteros ib.766; also en oiōnois,kithara, E. IT662, 1238
khronou te diatribassophōtatas ephēure sophia, sophizomai.



Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to ME of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

That means--by the law of silence--that the Father does not breath (Spirit) into any human pretender. Jesus will reveal the Word only to those who are "washed with water INTO the Word meaning into the School of the Word."

Only those who Obey Christ in Baptized are given A holy spirit. Peter said that we are SAVED BY BAPTISM because we ASK for A good conscience or Consciousness or a Co-Perception of the Word.

Paul in 2 Corinthians says that we cannot READ the text or HEAR it when it is READ (by command) in the assembly until they are converted or baptized INTO Christ. The MARK of babes are those who can read the words THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT.
​

 

[KSublett]

As a member of the Church of Christ I cannot believe what has happened in the last twenty years in which some Churches of Christ have decided to add instruments to their worshipping,

Revelation 17-18 defines the end-time Babylonianism identical to the beginning time. Moses wrote to warn the Israelites who had fallen into musical idolatry and been sentenced to Babylonianism at the Temple until God removed them to captivity and death. Only a tiny remnant remained who were still living in Jerusalem when Jesus came: probably the 120 disciples who were prepared by John's baptism to escape the baptism of WIND (spirit) and FIRE.

If you build an institution then the Devil will come: the once Bible Colleges now confess that they don't ignore the Bible but they have turned to theology: that means whatever churches in general decide to do is ok with god. A Church Planting Plot has moved into churches led by graduates prepared to go out and do away with the conservatives who fed their faces. Here is an example of some of the false teachings all of which fit the pattern of world danger rapidly being BROUGHT down on us.

THE CHURCH PLANTING MOVEMENT probably following the pattern of Max Lucado wh has become the NATION'S PASTOR. This connects to my old Church in Murfreesboro, tn. The preacher is a bit slow: it has taken him 20 years to "transistion" other people's property.

A Mother church in each city part of the movement begins to denegrate all of the other churches of Christ. They raise millions and begin to found a DAUGHTER church under the rule of the MOTHER church. They plan to plant 60,000 daughters. Most denominations would frown on that but they will be attached.