We are not saved by Grace/Faith alone, and I can prove it.

[DavidLOVESsnow]

What do you say of the thief on the cross? Jesus told him that he'd meet Him in paradise and yet the man only believed, and did no works. You might say, that the thief's case was special or unique. However, let me point you to a verse.

John 6:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I refer to MAtthew 25:31-46 again for who knows what time. It illustrates works are needed.

As for the theif on the cross, thats a very interesting predicament. He was never given the chance so it wasnt necessary (in correlation to Matthew 25:31-46 you'll know what I mean).

So it means you believe in Jesus. Well Jesus warned about Matthew 25:31-46, if you believe in Jesus you believe what he says is true, right? So wouldn't Matthew 25:31-46 apply still?


Heres my main problem. I dont like the thought process of people thinking "well im saved by grace so I dont need to worry about helping people". I think it just causes problems, you know? I also dont think its following whats in the bible. Im willing to be proven wrong, but I need some concrete info you know?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Listen. People have provided many Bible quotes. Just read them. I appreciate your concern, your dedication to this issue, and your compassion to your fellow brothers and sisters. However, to avoid confusion, just read the Bible verses that people have supplied.

I have read them a million times in my studies over 35 years.

You should read the passages given to you. They contradict your interpretation of your passages. Scripture can not contradict itself.

And why do you continue to ignore. I NEVER KNEW YOU.

That speaks volumes in and of itself.

Also, don't play the "man wrote the Bible" card. You can use it to say anything is an error. Thats like me saying there wasn't an Eve because who knows where the true manuscripts are for Adam there could just be two guys etc. etc. God promised to preserve his world in Psalms (I posted the quote in my op), if God said hes going to preserve it, he will.

lol. See what I mean?

According to the word. ALL people who are saved will be bitten and not die, drink and not die.

This is proven false. thus the words are from men, not from God.

You do realise men have been adding to the word of God cor centuries now. do you not? (maybe not, your still quite young)

 

[Spokenpassage]

I refer to MAtthew 25:31-46 again for who knows what time. It illustrates works are needed.

As for the theif on the cross, thats a very interesting predicament. He was never given the chance so it wasnt necessary (in correlation to Matthew 25:31-46 you'll know what I mean).

So it means you believe in Jesus. Well Jesus warned about Matthew 25:31-46, if you believe in Jesus you believe what he says is true, right? So wouldn't Matthew 25:31-46 apply still?


Heres my main problem. I dont like the thought process of people thinking "well im saved by grace so I dont need to worry about helping people". I think it just causes problems, you know? I also dont think its following whats in the bible. Im willing to be proven wrong, but I need some concrete info you know?

I don't think anyone on this thread believes we should live lawless sinful lives because of God's grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you say of the thief on the cross? Jesus told him that he'd meet Him in paradise and yet the man only believed, and did no works. You might say, that the thief's case was special or unique. However, let me point you to a verse.

John 6:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Amen and Amen.

And what Did Jesus say in that passage will be given to those who believe (have faith)

They will

Never hunger, never thirst
Live forever.
Never die
Have (present tense) eternal life
Will be risen (not delievered) by Christ on the last day.

Do we trust the words of Christ. or the words which come from misapplication of a few verses??

I chose to trust Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think anyone on this thread believes we should live lawless sinful lives because of God's grace.

Thats what their pastors teach them over and over and over, It is a fear tactic and false truth which they teach to keep them enslaved by their works. Otherwise, they would find truth and leave.

Remember though, the few who do teach a licentious gospel would call us legalistic. because we confront them personally on their sin issues

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

I have read them a million times in my studies over 35 years.

You should read the passages given to you. They contradict your interpretation of your passages. Scripture can not contradict itself.

And why do you continue to ignore. I NEVER KNEW YOU.

That speaks volumes in and of itself.



lol. See what I mean?

According to the word. ALL people who are saved will be bitten and not die, drink and not die.

This is proven false. thus the words are from men, not from God.

You do realise men have been adding to the word of God cor centuries now. do you not? (maybe not, your still quite young)

Listen, here is the problem. If you start picking and choosing what is added and what isnt, not only are you not trusting God to preserve his word, but you stand on a slippery slope. And please, don't just judge me because of my age, it is very rude. You have no idea how I found Christ, or what I have been through, so don't judge me like that (I can easily say you are old so you are dillusional but I don't because it is rude and baseless).

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Thats what their pastors teach them over and over and over, It is a fear tactic and false truth which they teach to keep them enslaved by their works. Otherwise, they would find truth and leave.

Remember though, the few who do teach a licentious gospel would call us legalistic. because we confront them personally on their sin issues

People who believe what I am afraid of are called Calvinists. Its an actual section of Christianity that has existed for years. And I don't go to church I just read the Bible and study.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

I don't think anyone on this thread believes we should live lawless sinful lives because of God's grace.

Look up Calvinism.

 

[SarahM777]

Close!

FRUIT is the evidence of Faith - faith resulting in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (salvation, the restoration of Life lost at the Fall). What is that Fruit? Love:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. (from Gal. 5)​

Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control are subsets of love. Those attributes will work themselves out in service to others - service such as described by Christ in Matt. 25, according to one's calling.

But the point I'm trying to make is that it's not WORKS, nut it's FRUIT that is the evidence of faith. That eventually comes out in works through loving others. Good fruit takes time. The Vine produces the Fruit; we bear it. Read more here: Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live?

-JGIG

You're right I did leave the rest of that out. And the real question we asking ourselves are we showing these in the first place and are they in ever increasing measure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People who believe what I am afraid of are called Calvinists. Its an actual section of Christianity that has existed for years. And I don't go to church I just read the Bible and study.

well there is more of your many mistakes.

1. I am not calvanist. Nor do I hold to calvanist doctrine, nor get my doctrine from calvin. Calvin believes in a forced salvation. I believe in frewill salvation. based solely on someone placing their complete trust in the gospel of Christ.
2. Your already in sin, You have failed to assemble yourselves together, as is the manner of some which is a sin.

So if your going to judge and try to remove a spec from others. maybe you should first take the log out of your eye.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Listen, here is the problem. If you start picking and choosing what is added and what isnt, not only are you not trusting God to preserve his word, but you stand on a slippery slope. And please, don't just judge me because of my age, it is very rude. You have no idea how I found Christ, or what I have been through, so don't judge me like that (I can easily say you are old so you are dillusional but I don't because it is rude and baseless).

Here is the problem. If we take a flawed english translation, which is in and of itself flawed, as proven by its mistakes. We will listen to words and not the message.

Why are you continuing to ignore the truth? He said ALL not some.

He also said I NEVER KNEW YOU.

you base you rbelief on a flawed passage, and ignore th emost important words in another passage, and you want to judge us?? WOW

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

well there is more of your many mistakes.

1. I am not calvanist. Nor do I hold to calvanist doctrine, nor get my doctrine from calvin. Calvin believes in a forced salvation. I believe in frewill salvation. based solely on someone placing their complete trust in the gospel of Christ.
2. Your already in sin, You have failed to assemble yourselves together, as is the manner of some which is a sin.

So if your going to judge and try to remove a spec from others. maybe you should first take the log out of your eye.

What are you talking about? I didn't claim you were anything. I just said I'm against the Calvinist belief and think it's dangerous.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're right I did leave the rest of that out. And the real question we asking ourselves are we showing these in the first place and are they in ever increasing measure.

even if they were not. There will be many babys who get to heaven. The ywill just have their works burnt as wood hay and straw. But Paul is clear. They themselves are still saved, even though as through fire.

many things keep people from growing. But God will never go back on his word. even if we, through our faithless life. Do not trust him in ALL areas of our life.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Here is the problem. If we take a flawed english translation, which is in and of itself flawed, as proven by its mistakes. We will listen to words and not the message.

Why are you continuing to ignore the truth? He said ALL not some.

He also said I NEVER KNEW YOU.

you base you rbelief on a flawed passage, and ignore th emost important words in another passage, and you want to judge us?? WOW

I didn't judge you, I am just disagreeing with you.

In the context he says I never knew you is up for debate. My perspective is that he never knew you when he was within those people because they never helped him, it doesn't mean he specifically never knew them at all. God knows every hair on everyones head, he knows who they are.

As for your opinion on the translation that is your choice. My fiance reads it in Korean and English, I read it in English, when we compare the three we arrive at the same concensus. Besides I said it before, God said he'd preserve his word. He'll make sure theres a Bible we can read thats accurate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What are you talking about? I didn't claim you were anything. I just said I'm against the Calvinist belief and think it's dangerous.

Thats fine, But your belief is far more dangerous than calvins belief. he just has the things which occure the moment of faith backwards,

You have people who trust self and not God getting to heaven. Which is the worse lie satan ever started. We make ourself God. which is what you are doing my friend.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I didn't judge you, I am just disagreeing with you.

In the context he says I never knew you is up for debate. My perspective is that he never knew you when he was within those people because they never helped him, it doesn't mean he specifically never knew them at all. God knows every hair on everyones head, he knows who they are.

As for your opinion on the translation that is your choice. My fiance reads it in Korean and English, I read it in English, when we compare the three we arrive at the same concensus. Besides I said it before, God said he'd preserve his word. He'll make sure theres a Bible we can read thats accurate.

1. I never knew you means I NEVER KNEW YOU. Stop twisting it. Of course they never did those things. BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER SAVED! Which is why JESUS NEVER KNEW THEM

2. The bible was written in hebrew, chaldean and greek. Those languages con not be fully translated to english, so I suggest to look to them for guidance. You will be better served.

 

[BenFTW]

I don't think anyone on this thread believes we should live lawless sinful lives because of God's grace.

This issue is that people seem to miss the crux (pivotal point) of grace. Grace can NEVER empower someone to sin, for it doesnt speak to the flesh, but the newborn spirit. We were crucified with Christ, putting off the "old man" or the sinful nature. Now we have a choice as to sin or not. For we serve "in the newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter."
The Word says, "Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but grace." Grace does not empower sin or the sin nature, it frees us from it. To say that grace is a license to sin, is a misunderstanding of God's grace.

As a side point, one could argue that under Law people could use the sacrificial system to use Law as a license to sin. They would sin, then go sacrifice a sheep, bull or goat. Next day, sin and go sacrifice again.

Look at Hebrews 10, and see that in the OT they had to keep sacrificing again, again, and again because with every fresh sin there needed to be fresh blood. but with Jesus it says

[h=3]Hebrews 10:11-14[/h]King James Version (KJV)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sins taken away, past, present, and future. If Jesus' blood only covered past sin, it would be no better than the blood of bulls and goats (which, as was said, covered past sin, fresh sin fresh sacrifice).


[h=3]Hebrews 9:25-28[/h]Amplified Bible (AMP)

25 Nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself regularly again and again, as the high priest enters the [Holy of] Holies every year with blood not his own.
26 For then would He often have had to suffer [over and over again] since the foundation of the world. But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice [of Himself].
27 And just as it is appointed for [all] men once to die, and after that the [certain] judgment,
28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and[a]once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.

Anyways, got off tangent, because this could lead to a discussion on why we don't confess our sins, but my point is still clear.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Look up Calvinism.

And you think I don't know what Calvinism is?

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Thats fine, But your belief is far more dangerous than calvins belief. he just has the things which occure the moment of faith backwards,

You have people who trust self and not God getting to heaven. Which is the worse lie satan ever started. We make ourself God. which is what you are doing my friend.

I never said that at all. Please do not put words in my mouth. All I am saying is that if you believe in God, obey the commandments and laws, but dont do any good deeds when the opportunity comes don't expect to enter Heaven as it says in Matthew 25:31-46. It's very clear. Good deeds/works are based on loving thy neighbour as thyself, because if you were in that situation you should want to help them too. And Jesus himself said that loving thy neighbour as thyself was extremely important.

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

This issue is that people seem to miss the crux (pivotal point) of grace. Grace can NEVER empower someone to sin, for it doesnt speak to the flesh, but the newborn spirit. We were crucified with Christ, putting off the "old man" or the sinful nature. Now we have a choice as to sin or not. For we serve "in the newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter."
The Word says, "Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but grace." Grace does not empower sin or the sin nature, it frees us from it. To say that grace is a license to sin, is a misunderstanding of God's grace.

As a side point, one could argue that under Law people could use the sacrificial system to use Law as a license to sin. They would sin, then go sacrifice a sheep, bull or goat. Next day, sin and go sacrifice again.

Look at Hebrews 10, and see that in the OT they had to keep sacrificing again, again, and again because with every fresh sin there needed to be fresh blood. but with Jesus it says

Hebrews 10:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Sins taken away, past, present, and future. If Jesus' blood only covered past sin, it would be no better than the blood of bulls and goats (which, as was said, covered past sin, fresh sin fresh sacrifice).


Hebrews 9:25-28

Amplified Bible (AMP)

25 Nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself regularly again and again, as the high priest enters the [Holy of] Holies every year with blood not his own.
26 For then would He often have had to suffer [over and over again] since the foundation of the world. But as it now is, He has once for all at the consummation and close of the ages appeared to put away and abolish sin by His sacrifice [of Himself].
27 And just as it is appointed for [all] men once to die, and after that the [certain] judgment,
28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and[a]once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.

Anyways, got off tangent, because this could lead to a discussion on why we don't confess our sins, but my point is still clear.

On a side note, thanks for another Bible quote to help prove Catholicism wrong. Didn't know about Hebrews 9:26.


I agree with everything your saying, just wanting to know your perspective on good deeds/works. It seems to be (in my perspective) the only place where I disagreed with you at this point in time.